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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
I spent the last two sessions denying just about everything I've ever told my T in the last 2 1/2 years. That I just (for the hundreth time) "can't do therapy." I should just quit. Or she should just take pity on me and terminate me.
She said, every so often this comes up, especially after you disclose something. You are so frightened to let me get close to you. I understand your fear of trusting. You coped with some very bad things by convincing yourself to never let anybody get close to you ever again.
I hope that you will take away from therapy the ability to have a relationship with me. And that you will take that ability and have other relationships.
I told her that we don't have a relationship, that I don't need one, want one with her or anybody.
She said that's because I'm scared ****less to have one. She thinks that a bigger part of me that I want to admit exists does want a relationship. That's why I keep coming back week after week, then getting scared and not sharing my notes or talking. I don't want to admit that I have this need. When in therapy it's just you me and the four walls and it's supposed to be safe her. You aren't safe. You won't let your guard down even with someone you want to be with or you wouldn't keep coming back.
I told her I HATE the word safe, because there is no where safe. No one is safe to be with.
She said, that is my fear of abandonment. That I try so hard to be uncooperative, angry and defensive when she tells me things I know are true. Like that I fear relationships, because I'm afraid I'll get abandoned. I am scared ****less to let her get close to me, because I am afraid she'll leave me or ignore me.
Why am I so scared ****less to admit to her that she (may) be right? Am I this messed up that I can't even admit that I do want a realtionship to her- someone who sees through my defenses?
I am a mess. Therapy is making me more messed, but I don't quit. Do I?
Poet
Posted by annierose on March 19, 2005, at 17:14:58
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
Maybe she is right?
Posted by shrinking violet on March 19, 2005, at 19:10:46
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
Wow ((((((poet))))))
The conversation with your T you just posted about mimics many a dialogue I've had with my T on the same topic.
You aren't "messed up," sweetie......You're afraid. You've been hurt so many times, as have I, as have so many of us....There's nothing wrong with trying to protect yourself. However, if your fear and defensiveness begins to get in the way of forming connections with people....then maybe it's time to take a second look and see if you can begin a compromise with yourself, take some small steps. Trusting your T, even a little, is one of them.
And no, you don't quit.... It will be worth it in the end. :-)
Take care hon. Keep going!!
SV
Posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 19:14:10
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long » Poet, posted by annierose on March 19, 2005, at 17:14:58
It does sound intense either way you look at it. If you envision a world as she sees you in it, it would be a horribly scary and lonely place. If the opposite is true, and you truly have no interest in relationships with anyone, and there are people like that in the world, what would that feel like to you?
Can you try to envision both scenarios and see what your gut tells you? Maybe that will help you with this. And I do think that the fact that you keep coming back to therapy is telling. If you truly did not want a relationship, well, why go back?
You might also consider psych. testing if you are really unsure. That might validate what your T is saying, and help you to trust her more, or it might give you both some new insight.
At any rate, I know you are seeking something. I hope you find it soon. I wish you peace.
(((Poet)))
gg
Posted by littleone on March 19, 2005, at 19:45:06
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
> I spent the last two sessions denying just about everything I've ever told my T in the last 2 1/2 years. That I just (for the hundreth time) "can't do therapy." I should just quit. Or she should just take pity on me and terminate me.
Sometimes I wish that denial was a physical object, like say a bunch of vines across your pathway. Then you could hack at it and chop it down and it would be gone. Instead it is like an invisible gas that just infiltrates everything and usually you don't even know that it's there.
It's fantastic that you can actually see it is at play here Poet. Know that it is a necessary defence. That our poor minds can't handle seeing/hearing/knowing certain stuff until they are ready.
Having said that, I do know that it is a cruddy thing to have to deal with.
I'm always amazed at how smart denial is. It can make up so many logical reasons for doing/not doing something. It is so convincing.
And wanting to quit or wanting her to ditch you is another denial. An avoidance. Whenever I want to quit therapy, it's a sure sign that there's something important going on in therapy. That it's more important than ever to keep going. No matter what incredibly logical excuses my denial has invented.
> She said, every so often this comes up, especially after you disclose something. You are so frightened to let me get close to you. I understand your fear of trusting. You coped with some very bad things by convincing yourself to never let anybody get close to you ever again.
I ask my T why I get so super alert and ready to bolt whenever he talks about us or how he feels about me. He says it's because I believe our relationship is dangerous. Is that how it feels for you? That the relationship is dangerous? Logically (and in my heart) I know that my T won't hurt me or reject me or do bad things to me, but despite that, it still feels dangerous to be so closely involved with him.
>
> I hope that you will take away from therapy the ability to have a relationship with me. And that you will take that ability and have other relationships.
>
> I told her that we don't have a relationship, that I don't need one, want one with her or anybody.My T says the same sort of thing. And I find it all so hard to accept. I hate being with people. I don't care about people. I don't need people. I can get the love I need from animals.
But my T is so different. He actually believes that you get meaning in life from your interactions with people (which would explain why I find life so pointless). He derives great satisfaction from obviously his family and friends, but also just from interacting with a shopkeeper or another parent at his kid's school or basically anyone.
And this is just so foreign to me. I can't comprehend it. All I can comprehend is that the way he views/approaches/handles relationships and people is vastly different from the way I do. And it obviously works for him. So even though I believe I don't want/need people, I think I'm willing to acknowledge that maybe there's more to it all than what I see/know. And maybe I'll take a watch and wait stance instead of running away from the idea completely.
But then again, my denial is very good at outsmarting me :)
>
> She said that's because I'm scared ****less to have one. She thinks that a bigger part of me that I want to admit exists does want a relationship. That's why I keep coming back week after week, then getting scared and not sharing my notes or talking. I don't want to admit that I have this need. When in therapy it's just you me and the four walls and it's supposed to be safe her. You aren't safe. You won't let your guard down even with someone you want to be with or you wouldn't keep coming back.She's right Poet. And it is hard. And it's something you just have to keep on working at. Over and over. Therapy is so hard.
>
> I told her I HATE the word safe, because there is no where safe. No one is safe to be with.People are dangerous. I'm sure that's a deep belief of mine. People are dangerous/nasty. The world is a bad place.
>
> She said, that is my fear of abandonment. That I try so hard to be uncooperative, angry and defensive when she tells me things I know are true. Like that I fear relationships, because I'm afraid I'll get abandoned. I am scared ****less to let her get close to me, because I am afraid she'll leave me or ignore me.
>
> Why am I so scared ****less to admit to her that she (may) be right? Am I this messed up that I can't even admit that I do want a realtionship to her- someone who sees through my defenses?
>
> I am a mess. Therapy is making me more messed, but I don't quit. Do I?Therapy is straightening you out. It's your defenses that are making a mess of you. And no, you don't quit. Remember, when you want to quit, that's exactly when you need to stay and work on something important. No matter how blah you feel about returning.
Often when I don't want to go to therapy and I really have to argue hard with my denial and literally drag myself to my T's office, I'm in a terrible frame of mind. I'm so closed off from him (and myself). And they're the sessions we just play cards. Just to be together, but with no pressure to open up. And once that pressure is off, it makes it a little easier for me to accept our relationship a little.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2005, at 0:01:06
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
If this only happens in therapy, then it might be worthwhile to quit going. But if it's a life issue, working on it in therapy will lead to a different (and therefore scary to think about) way of living and being with people.
I think my therapist is now concentrating on generalizing my experience with him to others. Good luck to him, I say.
Posted by Shortelise on March 20, 2005, at 13:07:13
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
Poet, oh, I do feel for you.
I think we have to fight with ourselves to establish trust. The nice things about being in therapy is that we can fight out our inner battles with our T's.
Do you see that?
I believe we can decide to do it. Intellectually decide. It doesn't change the emotions, but to say to one's self, "I am going to do this, I am going to fight this out" might make the difference. I was able to a certain extent to do this myself.
Quitting therapy felt like quitting on myself, and I didn't want to do that. There was a part of me that wanted to stay in my smelly finked-up world where I was comfortably finked-up. But another part of me looked through a crack in the door and thought, hey, I could be out there in the sunshine. So I took that part, the part that wanted to be in the sunshine, and I shook it off, and went to therapy with it, told it to kick me on the butt - behind, I guess that should be, eh? - if I wanted to go back to my smelly, hollow existence.
Poet, go for it. Do it. Dare. Fight all you want, fight it out, fight it through, but get it done. You can!
Poet, for you I am a pair of soft, warm socks. Magic socks. You slip me on your feet, and your feet are safe, and warm, and cared for. No one need know I am there, holding your feet so carefully. (Am I completely nuts???)
ShortE
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 17:51:26
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long » Poet, posted by annierose on March 19, 2005, at 17:14:58
Hi annierose,
She probably is right and that is scary. The good thing is that I have a therapist who recognizes how scared I am and has the patience to deal with me.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:21:47
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by shrinking violet on March 19, 2005, at 19:10:46
Hi SV,
I mailed the notes to my T. I missed the last Saturday pickup so it won't go out until Monday, but she'll still get it before I see her on Thursday.
Though I really want to call her and tell her to rip it up without opening it and to save the pieces to give to me.
I am going to try and keep going. I am afraid. You're right that I have been hurt, like you have been and so many others. My T keeps asking what would happen if I trusted her? I don't know. Though maybe the notes I sent will help, if anything they'll tell her that I am too scared to talk about certain things.
Thanks for the encouragement. Keep taking those baby steps, too, we can pick each other up when we fall.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:29:27
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 19:14:10
Hi GG,
I think that my T may be right in that a bigger part of me does want a relationship, but the thought is so frightening that my defense mechanism goes into over drive. "Make this person abandon you, now!"
I am married, so I guess I do want relationships, but on my very strict terms. My husband puts up with a lot, and has threatened to leave, but for some reason doesn't. Maybe the part of him that needs the relationship connects with the part of mine that does and neither of us recognizes it?
I've never had psych testing done. I only let certain people know certain things. T knows the most, former pdoc some, and my regular MD next to none other than I'm on ADs. If I could get through it psych testing might be very interesting. What is it like?
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:46:17
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long » Poet, posted by littleone on March 19, 2005, at 19:45:06
Hi littleone,
> Sometimes I wish that denial was a physical object, like say a bunch of vines across your pathway. Then you could hack at it and chop it down and it would be gone.
Use some weed killer and destroy its roots. That would be so much easier than hacking away at it mentally.
You are so right that denial is smart and convincing. I have so many logical reasons for not trusting my T.
I told my T to stop saying she cares about me. Your T may be right that if they tell us how they feel about us we sense that the relationship is dangerous. Like a red warning light with a siren goes off and causes the fight or flight instinct.
I know my T won't reject me. I told her that if I quit (again) not to take me back. She said she can't do that, she would always take me back. That doesn't stop me from trying to get her to abandon me. Something that I am so afraid of, but can't stop myself from trying to cause it.>I hate being with people. I don't care about people. I don't need people. I can get the love I need from animals.
That is so like me. I can tell my cats that I love them, but I don't think I've ever told my husband that I do. If I do, I don't want to get into that...
I'll try to take a watch and wait stance instead of running away from the idea of relationships and interacting with people, too.
You're right again that it is my defenses that are making a mess of me. I am going to try to remember that when I want to quit, I need to stay because what's scaring me is important to work on.
My T doesn't play cards with me, but we talk about movies. Plus she does energy work and that's good for those sessions when I say nothing more than okay, yes or no. It's good for me anyway.
So is babble.
Thanks for your insight and first hand knowledge. You've been a big help.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:47:58
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment..., posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:46:17
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:50:55
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long » Poet, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2005, at 0:01:06
Hi Dinah,
Having relationships is a life issue. I am living proof that you can be married and not really have anybody be close to you.
Your therapist is always, uh, interesting? I'd like to hear what he says about generalizing your experience with him to others.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:55:43
In reply to Re: Fear » Poet, posted by Shortelise on March 20, 2005, at 13:07:13
Hi ShortE,
You aren't crazy (keep in mind who is saying that ;)
I will wear those special socks to therapy. Only you and I will know they are there. Secret security socks. What a brilliant idea!I guess I do see how I can fight out my inner battles, especially with trust with my T. She's a combat veteran.
I will try to be daring and fight and not be a coward and run.
Thanks for your encouragement and the socks. They are so nice and warm, soft like a kitten...
Poet
Posted by antigua on March 21, 2005, at 10:21:31
In reply to Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long, posted by Poet on March 19, 2005, at 12:47:01
Poet, you are right on track. Keep going back until you get through those demons. I've watched you grow and take risks to help you feel better and you are an inspiration.
antigua
Posted by gardenergirl on March 21, 2005, at 11:19:23
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:29:27
>
> I am married, so I guess I do want relationships, but on my very strict terms. My husband puts up with a lot, and has threatened to leave, but for some reason doesn't. Maybe the part of him that needs the relationship connects with the part of mine that does and neither of us recognizes it?Could be. I guess I forgot you were married (she says sheepishly).
>
> I've never had psych testing done. ...If I could get through it psych testing might be very interesting. What is it like?It depends on what type you have. I was thinking of a couple of paper and pencil types, in particular, the MMPI and MMCI, which are pretty good at telling things such at what symptoms predominate, how much you trust others, how you view yourself, how you view others, etc. There are also tests that are given more in an interview format, and there are less structured tests, like the Rorschach. Tests like that might be more intimidating.
It was just a thought. I'm a big fan of psych. testing for treatment planning, though.
Keep plowing away, I think. You'll eventually get where you need to be.
gg
Posted by Poet on March 21, 2005, at 18:59:56
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... Long » Poet, posted by antigua on March 21, 2005, at 10:21:31
Hi Antigua,
The scared little kid inside of me says hide behind the chair. The scared teen inside of me says run do not walk to the nearest exit. Hopefully the adult me that's here somewhere will stick it out.
Thanks for telling me that I'm an inspiration. That feels good.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 21, 2005, at 19:01:25
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment..., posted by Poet on March 21, 2005, at 18:59:56
Posted by Poet on March 21, 2005, at 19:03:50
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... » Poet, posted by gardenergirl on March 21, 2005, at 11:19:23
Hi GG,
I'll ask my T what she thinks of testing. The paper and pencil kind I could do, though the perfectionist in me would keep erasing it until it's right. ;)
Poet
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2005, at 22:19:00
In reply to Re: Fear of Talking, Relationship, Abandonment... » Dinah, posted by Poet on March 20, 2005, at 18:50:55
I think he means that since I feel trust and attachment to him, I should use the relationship strategies I've used with him with others. He wants me to try to reach out to people I'd like to be friends with, that sort of thing.
He's wrong on two counts. First, not everyone can be trusted. In fact, given who I am and what I'm like, not many can be trusted on more than a superficial level. I tend to want too much from people, so it's safer to not want at all. It saves a lot of pain.
And second, the relationship skills I use with him don't go over too well in the real world. The real world is *not* therapy.
Posted by antigua on March 30, 2005, at 20:02:34
In reply to Above for Antigua (nm), posted by Poet on March 21, 2005, at 19:01:25
You're going to be o.k. We're all going to be o.k. I don't know when, but let's just try to have faith. We've put so much effort into it.
best,
antigua
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