![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
I had all but forgotten about t2. Finding it really hard to get attached to her. Had gotten really bad about turning up on time. Turning up at all etc. Most unlike me. I think it is partly because my thoughts are more with t1. Partly because I am not confident that she is trained to deal with anything more than normal people wanting a bit of support. Partly because I am not sure that we click all that well.
She was trying to restructure my cognitions. I could tell. I was getting annoyed with her. 'It is not a matter of logic', it is not. 'They are not beliefs anyway' etc.
I could see what was happening so I told her about the light.
I said I thought that people came to care about themselves and feel secure in themselves because they internalised the love that was around them. But I never had that. And while there isn't a critical age that is the same for everyone or anything like that it felt like I had missed mine. I have been loved since then. But I cannot internalise it. I am a vampire for the light and it does not fill me at all. I remain empty.
That other people set out thinking they can get me to internalise it, but that they eventually have to leave me because I am draining everything out of them. That I have really believed that I loved and then 6 months down the track realised that I didn't want an equal relationship with them. I wanted them to be my parent. That I wasn't sure that I would ever be capable of loving someone properly. That I am really afraid of people caring about me because I am terrified that I will hurt them.
And she didn't tell me I was illogical or wrong. She just let me talk.
I cried and cried and cried, and now I feel a bit better. Sadder. But better.
I had to give her something. That wasn't really a gift. But I had to try and it was the best I could do.
I feel sick.
But a little bit better.And as I write this I can just see all those beliefs that people itch to challenge. But attacking them with logic will not help me alter them. Experience. Experience is the key. I mean you don't tell a 4 year old to say to itself over and over 'I am worthy of love' so it will come to believe it. You don't tell it to do that, you show it. So why tell me?
Why tell me?
Why not just let me grieve.
I never have before.
But I have to let it out.
Posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 1:12:12
In reply to t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
Alexandra, from our bout together over on writing, you know you're right about internalising the love, and you're right about t2 having to provide the lovelight for you to follow. Do you think she isn't able to do that?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:41:28
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 1:12:12
No Susan. I think it is too late for me.
It just leaks out of me somehow fast as it is poured in :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:44:37
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:41:28
I don't know I don't know what is to be done :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:51:48
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:44:37
Nothing needs to be done.
I think I just need to grieve.
Maybe for tonight.
Maybe for tomorrow as well.
Maybe for a week.
Who knows how long.But I won't cling to it
And I'll try not to escape from itI should have put this on the grief board :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:52:29
In reply to t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
But Jai feels better now.
Maybe there is hope.
Posted by rubenstein on January 24, 2005, at 8:27:50
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:52:29
I don't knwo what to say, just that I thought your post was beautifully written and that I am thinking of you and wishing you the best
rubenstein
Posted by Shortelise on January 24, 2005, at 12:15:11
In reply to t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
Grieve, if that's what you feel you need to do.
I agree so much.
ShortE
Posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2005, at 13:08:00
In reply to t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
Your therapist sounds like she does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. This kind of therapy works really well for a lot of people - but it doesn't work for everyone. I did CBT for 8 1/2 years, and I learned a lot. But then I switched to Psychodynamic therapy - I felt that I needed to go "deeper", that just arguing with myself wasn't going to change anything. In Psychodynamic therapy you do the "experiencing" that you mentioned. You might want to talk to your therapist about the differences and try to come to an understanding about what would be most helpful for you. Just because one type of therapy doesn't give you what you need doesn't mean that a different therapy (or even the same therapy with a different therapist) can't.
GOod luck.
Posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 13:14:29
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2005, at 13:08:00
How funny, I think I forced my therapist to do psychodynamic, and I don't think that's what he normally does. Of course, I know nothing anyway, I'm an ignorant boor, and that's all right. But I thank him for being there for me, even when he didn't want to, or didn't know how.
Alexandra, it CAN work out, just keep talking, keep grieving, and don't be afraid to trust and love, even if the person you think you're trusting and loving may let you down. From my experiences with my therapist, I can guarantee you that anyone you love will let you down, but I also know that you can heal right through that. Please believe, alexandra, please believe, believe....
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 13:42:42
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by rubenstein on January 24, 2005, at 8:27:50
> I don't knwo what to say, just that I thought your post was beautifully written and that I am thinking of you and wishing you the best
Thank you.
I wouldn't know what to say if someone else posted that either...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 13:43:31
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by Shortelise on January 24, 2005, at 12:15:11
Thank you. I am not sure what else is to be done.
> Grieve, if that's what you feel you need to do.
> I agree so much.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 13:51:40
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2005, at 13:08:00
t2 is a narrative therapist. I had a bit of a dig around as to what that means... Seems to be mostly done in NZ though people have set up shop in Canada and Australia I think. People get accepted into the program on the basis of either experience in the / a related field or having had an undergraduate degree in anything at all. They do a 2 year Master of Councelling program which is run within the school of Education. So they do not even pretend to be psychologists. Narrative therapy is supposed to be about telling and retelling and reframing the stories that comprise our lives. I have sympathy for the idea... I guess that most therapists use a fairly eclectic method, though, and the urge to restructure my cogntions is just too great for them.
Narrative therapy is supposed to be great for dispute mediation etc. That seems to be what our university councellors are trained in. They are supposed to see people short term. People like me are supposed to be referred on to community mental health but I am getting a raw deal over there so this lady took pity on me... I am not at all sure that she can deal with this / me though. Which is probably why I never wanted to go there with her.
I am trying to get into psychodynamic therapy. I am really really trying...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 13:53:07
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 13:14:29
> Of course, I know nothing anyway, I'm an ignorant boor....
I shall try to believe. I shall.
Posted by littleone on January 24, 2005, at 14:53:36
In reply to t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2005, at 23:10:07
Your post really reminded me of something of read just the other day. I've put a quote below which is out of "How I stayed alive when my brain was trying to kill me" by Susan Blauner.
"Life essence is hard to describe because it's the unseen feeling-experience of self, other people and life events. It's a lot like having memories, but instead of recalling information, you recall a feeling connection. Finding life essence is the ability to hold on to the experience of a person, place or thing even when they're out of sight."
Further down she says "To a large degree the essence of my life would dissolve because my ability to integrate it into my self was so limited. Instead of feeling closer to a person after he or she left, I would feel abandoned, rejected and lonely."
"Much of life skimmed off of me and ricocheted into space, leaving gaps instead of ties."
"I wanted to be able to incorporate life experiences into my self, into my being, so they wouldn't dissolve like soap in dishwater. I wanted to be able to feel a long-lasting connection to things."
Is that a little bit of what you're going through?
Please don't think you're past the age of learning how to internalise significant others. The above author has managed to fix these problems in herself. If she can do it, we can. Right? It's not impossible, it's just hard work.
Finding the right T is hard work. But at least you're doing things to work towards that. Not sure that this T is the right one for you long term, but she could help with your immediate grieving if that feels like what you need to do.
Take care.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 16:02:31
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on January 24, 2005, at 14:53:36
Yeah, I guess it is sort of the same thing. Although it isn't so much a matter of when they are out of sight, it is a matter of when they are in sight as well. Someone can be there physically and trying to love me emotionally but I still can't feel connected. Not to them, the world, or myself. It breaks down whether they are in my sights or not.
And that is what is most horrid. There is no guarantee I'll feel better just because they are there. That is why I am so afraid of hurting others. Sometimes I just feel cold and disconnected. I don't know how to fix that. Or if it is possible to.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 18:43:50
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 16:02:31
Self soothing. I have heard that self soothing is the answer. Because I have to do that to feel better. But sometimes that is just impossible. The lense through which I see the world cannot change.
If I am around people at times like this then I am an absolute terror. I suck everything out of them. I am greedy and it does not really help me feel any better anyway.
So that is when I isolate myself. Because I don't see what needs to be done.
I do not.
It hurts people when they want to help me and they cannot. But they cannot because the problem isn't in the present it is in the past. Because they were not there then. Nobody was there then. Not when I really needed them and they could have done something. Nobody was there then and it is too late now.It is too late.
I was too soon.
I am still too soon.
I live in the past.
The memories.
I cannot escape them
Round and round.If you talk about it grieve about it then is it supposed to go away? To get better?
I don't even know how this is supposed to go.
Posted by smokeymadison on January 24, 2005, at 19:37:32
In reply to Re: t2 and the light, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 18:43:50
it is very hard to live in the present. you have to learn new behaviors b/c the ones you have now were learned in response to terrible things that happened in the past. in my case, and it sounds like in yours too, it has been so long since i had any peace of mind that i have forgotten what it is like. perhaps i never had it, actually. but that doesn't mean that things can't ne different in the future. i too need to grieve, but when i try, i just fall deep into uncontrollable depression. i have yet how to grieve effectively. maybe i could set a certain amount of time aside to really grieve, basically think about what i have been through and feel bad about it and when the time is up, return to the present. i wouldn't go as far as to actually set a timer or anything, but i would give myself that certain length of time to go over the past and then, enough, back to the present. just some thoughts.
SM
Posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2005, at 20:15:47
In reply to Re: t2 and the light, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 18:43:50
> Self soothing. I have heard that self soothing is the answer. Because I have to do that to feel better. But sometimes that is just impossible. The lense through which I see the world cannot change.
My T talks about how you can't change or eliminate this painful part of yourself. But you can make the rest of you bigger, so that this part isn't so intense. I kind of like that idea.
gg
>
> If I am around people at times like this then I am an absolute terror. I suck everything out of them. I am greedy and it does not really help me feel any better anyway.
>
> So that is when I isolate myself. Because I don't see what needs to be done.
>
> I do not.
>
>
> It hurts people when they want to help me and they cannot. But they cannot because the problem isn't in the present it is in the past. Because they were not there then. Nobody was there then. Not when I really needed them and they could have done something. Nobody was there then and it is too late now.
>
> It is too late.
> I was too soon.
> I am still too soon.
> I live in the past.
> The memories.
> I cannot escape them
> Round and round.
>
> If you talk about it grieve about it then is it supposed to go away? To get better?
>
> I don't even know how this is supposed to go.
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 20:21:28
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 16:02:31
It's possible to fix it, Alexandra. I was like that. I still am in some ways, at some angles. But I learned to uncover the part of me that can connect, can feel warmth. It took a long time, and it was hard work, and I could only do it because I learned to trust. You do know the path. All the words in the world won't help. You're right about that. But it is possible to uncover what was tightly sealed.
Not that doing that is all peaches and cream. That's also the part that cares and can be hurt. It wasn't always safe to care and be open to hurt, and it's still not always safe. But there are times and places where it is safe. You just need to find those times and places and experience the safety often enough that it seeps in.
I hope you find a safe harbor someday very soon.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 20:50:34
In reply to Re: t2 and the light » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2005, at 20:15:47
> My T talks about how you can't change or eliminate this painful part of yourself. But you can make the rest of you bigger, so that this part isn't so intense. I kind of like that idea.
Yeah. I can avoid it which is what I usually do. I have to to cope. But then I get stuck in flashbacks and ruminations most evenings and most mornings. Other times too. I just have to go to / stay in bed because I feel so sad and I don't want people to see me cry. But when I am there the ruminations start and I can't turn them off. I lose a lot of time that way.
I guess I like what you said because I really don't think the pain will ever go away completely. In a way suggesting that it will kind of invalidates it anyway. But it has to get better.
It has to.
Yeah. Focus on the good where I can.
Thank you.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 20:57:25
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 20:21:28
Sometimes I can do it. That is what is so hard. Sometimes I can but other times I can't and I don't understand why I can some times but not others. (Dare I say behavioural analyses don't help me with that). I don't know whether there are external triggers or what, but in a way it doesn't matter. I just need it to stop.
But it is the times I can't that ruin everything. It ruins what I do have. That is what I am most afraid of. Because you are supposed to be honest with people you care about. But how can you tell someone that you feel empty when you can see that they would do anything for you?
That despite your really believing that they do care you still feel empty anyway?
Maybe I really do need to take some medication to mute this or something.
I know it won't make it all go away. But maybe it will make it easier to cope with.
Thanks Dinah.
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 22:45:17
In reply to Re: t2 and the light » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 20:57:25
OK, got to tell you. Pleeease don't be honest with the people you love!!!! No No!!! Honesty is for the therapist who gets paid to hear it.
Especially don't be honest about passing thoughts. As a possibly schizotypal person, or maybe Aspergerish, there are times I don't feel things I think I should feel. As a person with Borderline tendencies, there are times when I feel things I'm reasonably sure I shouldn't feel. I don't burden the people I care about with those feelings. They're just that, feelings. Or lack of feelings. Whatever. They're mine to deal with.
Do I have a commitment to the people I care about? Absolutely. Does that commitment carry me through the times when I don't care about them or when I detest them? Absolutely. I don't always feel love, but I try to always *do* love. (It took my therapist ages to convince me that doing love is more important than feeling love. Of course, the payback is in the feeling love, not the doing, so I feel a bit shortchanged sometimes.)
When I'm in doubt I ask myself two questions. Is this a relationship I want to maintain? and Is what I'm about to say or do going to enhance the relationship (or perhaps harm it)?
And I ask myself what is the loving thing to *do*, whatever I may be *feeling*.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 23:28:11
In reply to Re: t2 and the light » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 22:45:17
Oh, I think I hear you. Don't worry, I don't tell people I feel all empty and alone at bad times. I don't say that. There isn't any point because there isn't anything they can do. And, well, there isn't a good time to say it anyway and so I suppose it doesn't get said. But I clearly am upset. Not feeling too good. Inconsolable. They notice. I don't have to tell them. I also don't tell people everything about my emotions. I realise most of them are innapropriate anyways.
But I think one day I would like to be able to be honest. Because it is not a problem with them, it is a problem with me. They need to realise that or they won't last long anyways. But then when they realise what a problem with me it is then they probably won't last long either.
I should just be alone.
Maybe not forever.
But for a while.
Have a lot to sort out within myself.
I JUST WANT A PROPER THERAPIST.
I don't mean to devalue her
She is doing good
But I don't have much faith in her ability
I don't know...;
I don't want to be doing this with her.
But the floodgates have opened.Bugger
Bugger> I don't always feel love, but I try to always *do* love. (It took my therapist ages to convince me that doing love is more important than feeling love. Of course, the payback is in the feeling love, not the doing, so I feel a bit shortchanged sometimes.)
But what if sometimes you really feel ill.
I don't know.
Posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 23:36:28
In reply to Re: t2 and the light (possible trigger), posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 13:14:29
my T didn't let me down, I let him down.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.