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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by B2Chica on November 21, 2004, at 17:01:07
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on November 21, 2004, at 16:55:51
((((((gg))))))
sorry but definate trigger, made me want to cross my legs as i was reading this.
i agree with daisy. this too is why i don't like anyone touching me. that's why i can't do massages (lower OR upper)-don't even like my hubby doing it.
So sorry you felt this.i've had that unknown sobbing before and it scares the cr@p out of me. cuz i too Hate not understanding what is going on with me. it creates a panic, and fear/anger.
please take care.
b2c.
Posted by Shortelise on November 21, 2004, at 20:29:07
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
I am assuming she did as all massage therapist I've seen who do that kind of work, and made certain that you were covered as she did the leg movements.
To allow one's self to be so open, so trusting is huge and very frightening, don't you think?
When I am in that perverbal stuff, I just have to feel it, be "in" it. It is so painful sometimes. I sometimes rock myself in the rocking chair. Little by little it grows into something I can talk about.
I got my foot caught in the spokes of my sister's bike when I was little, and a massage therapist I'd been seeing for about a year and whom I trusted was massaging it and I lost it completely.
I highly recommend a rocking chair of glider for this stuff. Just to sit and move so gently, to sit in the feelings and move this way is so soothing.
ShortE
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2004, at 21:00:38
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
GG, as extremely painful and frightening as that experience was, i tend to look at it in a very positive light- you were able to express some intense suffering from the time before you could speak. That's probably the only way any of us can ever do it, with sobbing and intense feelings of fear. It's happening to me a lot right now- including when I have a massage! The MT's encounter it frequently, and I believe they are trained to respect the feelings, but not to probe into them verbally. At most, the words you would be able to associate with such a powerful experience would be very few and simple- the expression of the feelings themselves is the primary communication- for a baby- isn't it?
I hope it helped to get such powerful feelings out-if not immediately- in the long run. Since I'm experiencing much the same, I do find the experience of feeling that my analyst knows what I'm feeling helps a lot. "Mmm's" are much more comforting than long sentences for that *part*!
Posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
>The hardest part is that I just didn't have any words or memories or thoughts to go with it. It was just pure pain. God, that's scary. The only word that came to me at all was "sorrow" but that seemed so inadequate.
>
> Sigh, how does anyone else deal with what you can't explain or even name?Hi gardenergirl. I'm sorry you had to deal with all that. It must have been terrible.
Re your comments above, (and you probably know all this already being a T in training), but instead of trying to verbalise your pain, perhaps you could draw it instead. Sometimes even a big black harsh scribble can convey so much more than words.
Was it Daisym who did the art therapy some time back? Sorry, can't remember. But maybe something like that could be useful for you to utilise at the moment. Not with a separate T, but taking the stuff into your current T.
I hope your crying helped relieve some of your pain.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 22:39:37
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and caring responses so far. I have read them all, and I do have things in mind to reply. But I can hardly keep my eyes open, and I need to go go bed. I'll post more tomorrow. Thanks again.
You've all been helpful, and I appreciate it.
GG
Posted by pegasus on November 22, 2004, at 14:29:35
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
I think this is a great idea. I've been dealing with similar stuff in therapy lately. I've had some pain from a recent event that seems to originate from when I was really little. When I access those feelings, I can't articulate a darn thing. It just feels really young. It seems to help (eventually) to at least acknowledge those really strong preverbal feelings. I've spent many sessions with my T, and alone, just sobbing with a really raw, unorganized pain.
And I do do art therapy with my T. I find that it's really helpful at the times when you just can't articulate something. I've been drawing lots of holes, and pits, and tangles. I'm not sure that I understand why it helps, but it really does seem to.
much luck with this!
pegasus
Posted by littleone on November 22, 2004, at 15:49:45
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by pegasus on November 22, 2004, at 14:29:35
Pegasus,
I've always wondered with Art Therapy what the role of the T is exactly. I presume they help you get started on expressing yourself through the art and I guess they probably talk about what you've drawn afterwards and gain some insights from it. But is it also like regular therapy where you both talk a lot? Do you do a single art thing per session? Or several? Or are they just homework that is then discussed in your session?
Sorry to be so nosey, I've never really understood exactly what was involved.
Thanks.
Posted by fallsfall on November 22, 2004, at 21:51:36
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
(((((Gardenergirl)))))
I don't know of anything to say that can help, but I don't want you to feel alone with your pain.
Trying to keep you company,
Falls.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:32:25
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on November 21, 2004, at 14:34:22
> > As my T said, today, the ER would have called child protection if a baby came in with injuries like I had. What I have to try to keep locked in the box is the *maybe.*
>
> Maybe try locking up your *maybe?* I'm going to put the *maybe* back in my box right now. I have enough things I do remember to work on in therapy.
>I don't even have a definite "maybe". It's a "maybe=maybe" I guess. :) But it can go in the lockbox. I think the pain is the thing to go for, not a memory. Because I'm guessing that memories of any kind will come if they need to, especially when more of the pain comes out.
Thanks for your caring. I hope that lock box is still working for you.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:36:03
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2004, at 14:42:04
> They won't all be like this going forward, I'm both happy and sad to tell you. :) You'll have plenty of boring sessions to look forward to as well.
Thanks for your response, Dinah. And you are right. Today's session wasn't exactly boring, but it was not very productive. I went back to being well defended and staying intellectual. By T challenged me on it. He's doing that more lately, and I know, cause I see it, too, but it kind of stings. :(
>
> Ok, this may be completely and totally off the mark for *you*, but I can tell you what sometimes happens with me. In order to deal with things I often strip away the feelings of a memory from the memory. The memory gets stored and can be recalled. But the feelings associated with it seem to go in big vats sorted by the sort of feelings. Big vats of sorrow. Big vats of rage. Etc. And if the vat gets accessed, a whole bunch of the feeling comes out. It doesn't have to be tied to any specific memory. It can just be an accumulation of the myriad insults to our nervous system that aren't uncommon.That's a good metaphor. I think of mine as a never-running-dry well. It seems like when a large amount gets out, it seems like the level drops, but there must be this wellspring of pain that fills it up again. Yuck.
>
> I think it's a really good thing for me to tap into those vats every once in a while in a safe environment. It helps relieve the pressure.
>
> Of course, your experience may not be in any way similar to mine.I think it's good, too. Mostly when I cry in therapy, it's like a little bit leaking out at a time. so getting a lot out was good, although draining and scary. Am I weird to think I might want to get there again?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:39:43
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » Poet, posted by antigua on November 21, 2004, at 14:52:27
> If I need to, I remember how I used to make myself safe as a young girl, eating M&Ms, drinking a coke (real luxuries for me as a kid) and reading in my special tree or window seat. That's how I escaped.
That sounds like a lovely image. I'm glad you had that to escape to.
>
It sounds like you have a good plan for the holidays. Chocolate is always good. I hope you have some happy times during the holiday.
>
> I accept now that some of my memories are preverbal and I may never know them, but I'm trying hard to release the very, very scary feelings and not questioning so much what it all means. I never really believed in "physical memories" before, but I know they are part of the process.
>
> Poet and gg--It may sound silly, but I'm really proud of you both. I know how hard it is...I'm going to try to let them come and not analyze them so much (sheesh, that's going to be hard...maybe need a new mantra). And hearing you are proud of me, that's quite a compliment. Thank you, antigua.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:46:37
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on November 21, 2004, at 15:40:37
> but I'm a little more interested in what the intuitive had to say. Did she have any take on what happened? Since she witnessed it and in effect triggered it, surely she would have some insight.
She really didn't say anything. She tends to keep things to herself unless you ask. But yeah, I can guess what she was thinking. She wants me to do Watsu next, which is a similar thing, but in a warm pool. This will make it easier for her, she said. Others have said it's like going back to the womb. Don't know what I think about that. I'm going to try it, although I hate the smell of chlorine and I look like a huge grape in the new bathing suit I had to get due to weight gain.
>Was she working with chakras? From what little I know, it sounds like this happened when working with the base chakra, which is the family of origin and is tied to feeling secure and grounded, if you're into all of that. It also seems possible because she said your energy wasn't flowing and if your first chakra is closed, nothing else is open either. Will you go back to her?
I admit I didn't really know why she was doing what she was doing. I tend to just focus on the experience and try to keep my brain out of it. As scary as it was last time, I really trust her. She's got this very calming and spiritual presence. What you are thinking sounds right. She definitely does work with chakras. My 3rd is definitely blocked, and she said my head is very heavy, which she interprets as having a lot of energy up there. So perhaps she's focusing on the deficit areas.
>
> Bessel van der Kolk has written a lot about trauma as it is stored in the body. His article is "The Body Remembers" or "The Body Keeps the Score." I don't remember the title exactly, but easily googled. His theories really ring true for me. It seems like she hit on a very provocative memory stored within you.Yeah I agree. I can think of an adult memory that would fit, but then I should have words for it more. I don't know. I'll look up van der Kolk when I get a bit more time.
>
> Let us know how this evolves, and be good to yourself while you're working on it.
Thanks, I will. I've been doing a lot of "therapeutic sleeping". :)gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:49:57
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on November 21, 2004, at 16:20:20
Thanks for the kind thoughts. Isn't free associating hard? Sometimes I think it would be helpful to lie on the couch, but I'm sure I would never just start doing that in therapy. But somehow that seems like it might feel freer.
I mostly felt drained when it ended. My T asked if it felt like I had "digested" or "metabolized" (interesing words) any of the pain. If I did, it was just a tiny amount. But then I do think it was a good thing. I think perhaps it was just too scary to feel relief just yet.
But I'll keep trying.
Thanks again,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on November 21, 2004, at 16:55:51
> (((GG)))
>
> This is one of the reasons I never let anyone touch me!You know, it's never been a problem before. It will be interesting to see how it goes next time. Although I do think I'll tell her more about what was going on with me, and also ask her take on it.
>
> I think for whatever reason, your defenses are down enough for you to tap into this pile of sorrow and let it out. I've been researching grief, especially grief held in for a long time. The deep sobbing you spoke of is what makes me think of this.Grief is not a bad word for it. The only other time I can remember doing something like this was outside of therapy. It felt a lot like grieving, not just experiencing, but grieving, which has a sense of movement to it, to me. But I could tie thoughts about my mother and her not being present at times I needed her. Not having an explanation is so much harder.
>
>
> As far as being destroyed after sessions, I think you are going to need to plan for some down time afterwards if you are moving into doing some of this deep work. I have found that I'm exhausted, even if I haven't given into the sobbing. My brain just wants to click off for awhile. Be really careful driving! I find it is helpful to tell my therapist if I have something I have to be together for afterwards, so we can keep things easier.Yeah, there will come a time when I will have to go back to work after sessions, unless I can get a 4 o'clock time. I should ask him to let me know when one opens up.
>
> I hope writing it down helped clarify things. Seems to be the day for that.Yeah, it did help. I didn't intend to write so much, but it just kind of flowed out.
Thanks for all of your wisdom, caring, and support. I really appreciate it.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:55:59
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by B2Chica on November 21, 2004, at 17:01:07
Sorry for the trigger. And thanks for the caring. It's nice to see you back here!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:59:29
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by Shortelise on November 21, 2004, at 20:29:07
> I am assuming she did as all massage therapist I've seen who do that kind of work, and made certain that you were covered as she did the leg movements.
>
> To allow one's self to be so open, so trusting is huge and very frightening, don't you think?Yes, she went out of her way to make sure I was covered. And yes, to be so trusting is scary, especially once you start to worry about "what if". (shudders) Even that tiny .05 percent chance that she might not be trustworthy is enough to give pause. Which is not like me, but I suppose IS reality.
>
> When I am in that perverbal stuff, I just have to feel it, be "in" it. It is so painful sometimes. I sometimes rock myself in the rocking chair. Little by little it grows into something I can talk about.You know, I have a rocking chair, that used to be in the house where I grew up. I may try that.
>
> I got my foot caught in the spokes of my sister's bike when I was little, and a massage therapist I'd been seeing for about a year and whom I trusted was massaging it and I lost it completely.Wow, it's fascinating how the body can react, isn't it?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:05:23
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2004, at 21:00:38
> GG, as extremely painful and frightening as that experience was, i tend to look at it in a very positive light- you were able to express some intense suffering from the time before you could speak. That's probably the only way any of us can ever do it, with sobbing and intense feelings of fear. It's happening to me a lot right now- including when I have a massage! The MT's encounter it frequently, and I believe they are trained to respect the feelings, but not to probe into them verbally. At most, the words you would be able to associate with such a powerful experience would be very few and simple- the expression of the feelings themselves is the primary communication- for a baby- isn't it?
Yes, I think this is exactly right. I do think it was good that it happened, and strangely, I am looking forward to doing more work like that. But in the short term I just felt so wiped out.
> I hope it helped to get such powerful feelings out-if not immediately- in the long run. Since I'm experiencing much the same, I do find the experience of feeling that my analyst knows what I'm feeling helps a lot. "Mmm's" are much more comforting than long sentences for that *part*!
Yes, I really really like and respect my T. Today I thanked him for "holding" me emotionally and for being what I called "cautious" in responding to me. What I meant was he was neutral, not leading me towards the idea of memories and not leading me away. He laughed at my word choice of "cautious" because he thought being neutral might be considered as "reckless". What he meant was that if he didn't guide in any direction, than whatever came out would come out. Neither of us could run away from it. He was saying that some T's do run away from it. And in some ways, I did want him to say, "You have nothing to worry about. You don't look like someone who was abused." Of course he can't do that. And I don't really want him to, but I do wish I could understand everything intellecutally.
I guess you get more and more okay with it as it happens more, especially in such as safe place. I'm glad you have a safe place for your emotions, too.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:06:59
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
You know, that's a good idea. I acutally just bought myself some crayons for some activities in a workbook I just started. When I opened the box, I just had to smell them for a minute.
It was Daisy who went to some art therapy groups. I don't know if she still is or not. But it sounded great.
Thanks for the kind words and the good idea.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:10:22
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by pegasus on November 22, 2004, at 14:29:35
> When I access those feelings, I can't articulate a darn thing. It just feels really young. It seems to help (eventually) to at least acknowledge those really strong preverbal feelings. I've spent many sessions with my T, and alone, just sobbing with a really raw, unorganized pain.
gosh, that's exactly what it felt like to me.
>
> And I do do art therapy with my T. I find that it's really helpful at the times when you just can't articulate something. I've been drawing lots of holes, and pits, and tangles. I'm not sure that I understand why it helps, but it really does seem to.That sounds really intersting. I can see why it would help. My T was really picking up today on all the ways I was describing how I think of the pain inside me. I admit they were all yucky, dark, sinister, and disgusting. He equated this with more primitive images, and said there is disgusting in all of life. So finding it within ourselves should be okay, too. Hmmmm, need to process that a bit more.
I think I'll try drawing some, too, and see what I come up with. Do you think about what you are going to draw and how it will look? Or does it come out more like free associating?
Thanks,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:11:14
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by fallsfall on November 22, 2004, at 21:51:36
Thanks, falls. It's nice not to feel alone. I appreciate you thinking about me.
I hope you are doing well.
gg
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2004, at 8:33:52
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:36:03
Not weird at all. I find those sessions incredibly... I don't have the words. But healing comes close.
Posted by annierose on November 23, 2004, at 8:40:30
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » fallsfall, posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:11:14
GG - WOW, it must of taken you a great deal of time to respond to each and every one of us.
Thank you. Yes, I do lie on a couch. Trust me, it took a great deal of courage, and a giant leap of faith. When I saw this T 20 years ago,
I refused to try and eventually quit. When I began seeing her this year (how cool was that after all that time had past ... and I'm 42 now, she probably 50) she didn't want to ask me. Then one session she said, "I don't know how to bring this up because you reacted so strongly years ago, but I think you would really benefit from free associating and lying down. Just think about it." Then months later, I did. I do sit up every once in awhile, but do find a stronger connection to her while lying down.
I can't explain it. So even though at times I hate it, I do like that it's so hard for me and it pushes me further down the path.
So when you wrote to someone above about it being odd that you liked it was so hard (or something to that affect) I do know what you are saying. I may get mad in sessions when I'm pushed, but after I'm over it, I'm happy to have gone to that point.
Posted by Susan47 on November 23, 2004, at 10:33:04
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » fallsfall, posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:11:14
Dear gg, I went through a horrible intense crying phase when my head was being massaged, every time the therapist went over a specific part of my scalp I broke into huge gasping sobs, the sorrow was unspeakable, I never went back and even she was crying. Every other part of my body seemed to be okay, but the experience was so frightening it actually led me into going to therapy, which I cut off several times in as many years until this last year, which of course, was a disaster in its own way.
I wish you healing. I know how deep the sorrow goes. I don't know if mine is now locked up, or healed. I know an acupuncture session early last year had the same effect on me; the receptionist, who's also the doctor's wife, had to sit with me while I sobbed uncontrollably with needles stuck all over me. I had no control over it; but I know it happens to people rarely.
Posted by pegasus on November 24, 2004, at 12:57:48
In reply to Art Therapy » pegasus, posted by littleone on November 22, 2004, at 15:49:45
Hi littleone,
Sorry to be so late in responding. Right after I posted that, I came down with an awful stomach bug and have been in bed for three days. Much better now.
Art therapy is pretty much the same as regular therapy, except that I have the option to be making some kind of art while we talk. Sometimes I don't even do any art, and we just sit and talk like normal. Sometimes she'll suggest directions that I could go with an art project that might be helpful for working something out. Usually we'll talk at least briefly about whatever I've made at the end. Sometimes I just doodle, and we don't necessarily talk about it afterwards. Sometimes I work really hard on a project and we talk about what I'm doing the whole session. I did one piece that we decided to bring out during every session to look at for a couple of months, while I tried to figure out what to make of it, and to get used to that view of the issue.
For example, recently I've been working a lot on issues around my old therapist moving away rather suddenly. I'd brought up several things to him before he left in emails, that never got dealt with or even acknowledged. So, in my next few sessions I'm going to take some of those emails and turn them into an art project, trying to express how I feel about all of that. I think I'm going to do a collage of some sort, mixing in my recent drawings of pits and tangles with enlarged excerpts torn out of my emails. Frankly, I'm hoping that making some kind of statement in a non-verbal medium will help me express some aspects of it that don't come out in words. Like all of the howling, wordless grief.
Got kinda long there. Sorry. I *love* doing art therapy.
pegasus
Posted by pegasus on November 24, 2004, at 13:06:09
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » pegasus, posted by gardenergirl on November 23, 2004, at 0:10:22
Most of the art that I do in therapy is completely free associated. Every now and then I'll realize that I need to do a piece about a particular thing or I'll have a very conscious feeling that I want to express. But I find it pretty helpful to just go in and see what I feel like. A lot of it is doodling. Afterward, I can often talk about the feelings that led to different parts of the doodle. And I can always choose my medium at the last minute, which is good for fitting the art to my current needs. For example, I seem to go for watercolors when I'm sad, and oil pastels when I have a lot of energy, and clay when I have something really complicated, or want something concrete at the end. But it's all just whatever I feel like working with at the moment.
And I have to say that I'm no artist. I love messing around with art supplies, but my skills are pretty limited. That doesn't seem to matter. I just stick to pretty abstracted stuff mostly so I don't get down on my ability to artistically reproduce something that others would recognize.
And yes! about the yucky dark sinister stuff inside us! My therapist actually encourages me to see that part, and depict it if I can. It's in there for certain, and it helps to drag it out and look at it, and try to accept it, I think. Sometimes when I paint a really ugly painting on purpose, and can talk about why I wanted ugly that day, in a supportive environment, it feels really liberating. So much of my life seems to be about making things look pretty.
pegasus
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