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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 0:19:16
Ok, ok, so therapy is not supposed to be a re-traumatisation. I get that.
But listen, it so much feels like it!
I lived through emotional neglect as a child, and I know, I know that therapy is supposed to heal that, and that my therapist believes that it does.
But here is my gut telling me that I am living through the same thing over again, that I am again being sent away. This time I am meant to understand where I was incapable of understanding when I was a child. So, great, I feel the same stuff but with instead of being emotionally trod upon by my parent, I am having to let go of an extremely important attachment of my own free will, and I am supposed to find it painful but perfectly acceptable BECAUSE I AM NOT A CHILD - I AM AN ADULT.
Help me here please. He says it'll begin to feel ok, but it feels like someone is ripping me away from air.
I'll go to sleep tongiht repeating to myself, I am an adult, I can separate from my psychiatrist.
It feels like he's admonishing me for not acting my age. I am not my age...
There is nothing here I haven't said to him, and I'll keep saying it until either it isn't true anymore or I find something better to say.
Help. Please.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 9:58:53
In reply to more termintion angst, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 0:19:16
I suspect you know that I am having the same feelings (about reduction - I'm not even trying for termination). And I suspect you know that I probably don't have much in the way of wisdom to offer you.
Part of what my therapist was laughing at yesterday was my stubborn insistence that it WASN'T FAIR that not only did I have to do something unpleasant, but I was being forced to do it myself. That doesn't make it easier. That adds insult to injury!! He finally understood what I was saying, but he didn't agree that it was so.
But of course, I'm not really doing it freely. I'm succumbing to the tyranny of the Shoulds. I'm doing what I think is "right". And while it's a free choice to do what I think is "right", I suppose, in another way it isn't. The decision to do what is "right" is sort of a global one for some of us. Then anytime anything is framed in terms of right/wrong our subsequent choices are limited by our over-arching choice. So it may be an autonomous choice, but it's not altogether a free one. Especially if the choice totally ignores other needs we have other than the need to do what's "right".
How freely are you really making this choice? Is it something you want to do for you? Or is it something you want to do for your family finances, your insurance company, your therapist's other potential patients?.... (your therapist? - do you feel that it's what he wants or do you want to be a good little therapy client and get better and leave?) If it's something you want to do to meet some of your needs (like being independent), are you ignoring other of your needs?
If you listen quietly inside, what needs are you afraid won't be met when therapy is no longer present in your life. Are you planning for other ways to meet those needs?
Is your therapist helping you figure out what your resistance to terminating therapy is about? Or is he just supporting your ability to do without him?
More questions than answers, but as you know I have no answers. The only suggestion I can think of is to find a time to be very still and open your mind to all the irrational thoughts you might prefer to keep at a distance. Put aside the knowledge that you are an adult and belief that you should only have adult thoughts, and really really listen and take them seriously. In that you try to find some way, even if it's not therapy, to address them.
I guess another choice would be to rip the bandage off quickly, live with the short term pain, with the knowledge that such pain rarely lasts for long. I think about that option sometimes, but I suspect there are some hidden costs involved there.
(Sorry to be so long there. I was thinking aloud about my own situation too. Trouble is that it doesn't help me much. I can't think of any alternate ways to get my needs met, because my need is for the therapeutic relationship with my own therapist.)
Posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 11:10:25
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 9:58:53
Thank you so much Dinah. Your post is just right and I try to answer the question you pose.
SOmetimes the right question is more valuable than an answer.
ShortE
Posted by shrinking violet on September 4, 2004, at 11:29:29
In reply to more termintion angst, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 0:19:16
> Ok, ok, so therapy is not supposed to be a re-traumatisation.
I feel for you, sweetie. My relationship with my T is very close and unique for me. And, much like you, I was emotionally neglected as a child, and I think in a lot of ways my T is giving me now what I didn't get then. But I will also be forced to terminate with my T once I graduate from graduate school, and it literally pains me to think about it. I also genuinely like and respect and care about my T as a person, so I am not only losing a T, I feel like I'm also losing a very important person in my life.
I wish I had some advice for you, I really do. At least your T is working through this with you, though (or at least he seems to be?). I have a feeling my T won't fully process this with me the way she should, so I think I'm going to be in for a very hard time. Good luck sweetie. I wish you well.
-SV
Posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 20:24:38
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 9:58:53
I think this is a bad idea - I am afraid that to do so would negate some of what I have done in therapy, that the wound would be deep, and I would feel I had unfinished business.
Am thinking, thinking. In a way, I want to dissolve, disappear, sink into the earth. I want not to feel what I am feeling and the only way I could do that is not to be. Yup, nasty suicide thoughts. No plans, not serious, but they are there. (Please allow me write that I am feeling these feelings without imagining that I am going to kill myself. If I thought I would, I'd call my shrink.)
SHortE
Posted by Skittles on September 4, 2004, at 23:00:07
In reply to ripping of the bandage, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 20:24:38
If you had undertood what termination would be like when you started therapy, would you still have started?
It's something I've been thinking a lot about today. Here I am telling my deepest, darkest secrets to someone who has absolutely no potential of remaining permanently in my life in a meaningful way. I feel myself starting to get attached and I'm thinking about distancing a little to protect my heart.
Posted by Susan47 on September 4, 2004, at 23:24:32
In reply to more termintion angst, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 0:19:16
ShortE, look at the thread Crisis #28, ...... What YOU wrote and I totally totally agree that's the way I think it works too. Isn't that the answer to the question you're asking? Maybe you don't think so and that's why you still have to ask this question. But if you really did answer the question in the "Crisis" thread, I mean if you believe what you asked there is *true*, then isn't that what's happening in your therapy here? Agh, this is too confusing.
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 23:31:56
In reply to ripping of the bandage, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 20:24:38
Just suggesting that it was an alternative. Not one I'd use.
When I was little, I had a big accident and had stitches and a bandage that needed to be changed so that my parents could clean the wound and put on a salve that would help prevent scarring. My dad was a rip the bandage off believer, my mom was a bit by bit believer. And I would run screaming from one to the other to the far end of the room and back, never able to decide how I wanted it done. Half the time they gave up, and I ended up with quite a scar. I haven't changed all that much. :)
If it's causing you this much distress, are you sure you're ready? At some level, you're fighting termination quite strongly. What are your therapist's thoughts on long term therapy, even if it's less frequent than it is now for you, or verrrrry slow termination?
Posted by tinydancer on September 5, 2004, at 4:40:26
In reply to I wasn't recommending it. :) » shortelise, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 23:31:56
I really agree with Dinah here. I believe that when (if???) I am ready for termination, that it won't be a total devestation. I can imagine that it could very naturally be bittersweet and sad to say goodbye but I would feel devestation would be a red flag that perhaps termination is too soon.
Of course, who I am to talk..I have actually duped myself into believing I never will terminate, and if I did its only because my T is in my life privately so he can't be my T anymore...hahah
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2004, at 11:54:44
In reply to So let me ask you guys....., posted by Skittles on September 4, 2004, at 23:00:07
I was about to answer this by comparing therapy to any other relationship. Unless I'm lucky enough to die first, there's no relationship on earth that will last forever. I've lost friends and family. I become deeply attached to my dogs, and my dogs are destined to share only a relatively brief part of my life with me. So if I went through life afraid to choose intimacy because of the pain of loss, I'd be awfully lonely.
But then I realized that this couldn't have been addressed to me because I'm not planning to terminate. Ever. I'm planning to decrease frequency. But my therapist is comfortable being an ongoing part of my life, whether it's five times a week or once a year, whatever's best for me. Until life takes him away, which is no different than life taking any other person away.
Still, I think I'd have to say I'd do it all over again. I have gained so much through therapy, just as I have gained so much through Babble. I'm glad I'm not now who I was before.
Posted by LG04 on September 5, 2004, at 13:57:27
In reply to more termintion angst, posted by shortelise on September 4, 2004, at 0:19:16
Hi, I've been reading threads fairly regularly but just have not been able to post. I too am terminating from a beloved therapist to whom i am very attached. and shortelise, when you said you feel like you are being ripped from air...you said it perfectly. i have two more sessions left with mine and then i am leaving the country. we will continue to talk by phone but that too will decrease. and phone isn't the same as in person.
i am in total shock. i cannot comprehend that i am leaving therapy with her. i feel like i am going to die. it's a very premature termination, we're ending b/c i'm leaving the country, not b/c it's time to end. also our last few sessions have been quite difficult...not the tie-it-up-in-a-bow summarizing and good feeling kind of stuff. she's tried but i've had some painful things come up and a lot of trust issues (of course b/c i'm separating so everything is magnified 200%) and it just hasn't been as i would have had wanted (or as i think she might have wanted), though it's been real. also some illusion-busting things, which i think might be a natural consequence of ending therapy but it rips one's heart out. and i am still figuring out so many things about myself and about our relationship, even as we are "ending," and it just proves how much fertile ground there is in our relationship to continue learning and growing, and cutting it short is just...well it just...sigh...no words.
it's just so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so sad. i told her it's one of the most difficult things in my adult life that i've ever faced.
having said all that, and in response to someone else's question...yes i'd do it all again. i wouldn't have passed up this relationship, this therapist who i love so much, the lessons that i've learned or the growing that i've done, not for anything in the world.
i saw a movie last night, "endless mind in a spotless world," something like that, about people who go thru painful break-ups or lose someone they love and the memories are so painful that they go thru a procedure to get them erased. i asked myself if i'd want to get my memories of my relationship with my therapist erased and i didn't even hesitate, i knew the answer would be no. no way. she is precious to me and always will be, and she is a part of me. i wouldn't want to give up, or undo, that part for anything in the world.
hang in there shortelise. i'm going thru the exact same thing. we'll make it. it will get less painful eventually because it has to. there's nowhere to go but up.
laurie
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:25:33
In reply to Re: more termintion angst, posted by shrinking violet on September 4, 2004, at 11:29:29
SV, I don't know when you'll be finished with school, but if you feel your therapist won't end therapy with you in the best way for you, maybe you could talk about it with him/her now? I mean, if I had thought that earlier in therapy, I would have felt a certain amount of anxiety about it.
THanks.
ShortE
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:26:56
In reply to So let me ask you guys....., posted by Skittles on September 4, 2004, at 23:00:07
Yup, that is a question!!
I guess I would do it all again, because despite my current hideous pain, I feel better than I used to. I don't get the anxiety fits I used to get, I can work, I can function.
ShortE
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:28:17
In reply to Re: more termintion angst, posted by Susan47 on September 4, 2004, at 23:24:32
Well, yes, Susan - I KNOW that. Me,t he me that sits in my head knows that.
The me that's really me, the me that is all ages, all feeling, doesn't know that.
Argh!!!!
ShortE
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:31:18
In reply to I wasn't recommending it. :) » shortelise, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 23:31:56
I didn't think you were recommending it, but I wanted to respond anyway. I have thought about it, thought that it might be easier in the short run. It is tempting because I think it would upset my shrink and I sometimes feel so hurt by him that I want to hurt him. More infantile feelings. But I know it would be the wrong thing for me to do.
ShortE
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:33:11
In reply to Re: So let me ask you guys....., posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:26:56
I keep forgetting to addd the name of the previous psoter!! I hope you can figure out who I am responding to.
ShortE Shortbrain
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:39:45
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by LG04 on September 5, 2004, at 13:57:27
Laurie, I can't imagine how hard it must be to leave like you are. My T says I can always come back when I need him, if I need him. If I need more therapy, if I need to drop in for a visit, if I need to talk.
Am I confusing you with someone else or will you be going back to where your T lives in a few years? If so, maybe it would help to do what I did when I quit smoking - I told myself it wasn't forever, that I would go back to it (I'm going to start again when I'm 72), and it's not lost forever. I know that sounds weird to do with smoking cessation, but it really helped.
We all seem to make it through. I don't remember hearing of people going completely bananas and being committed to hospital because of ending therapy. Nor do I think many leap off high buidlings because of it. And I have never heard of a case of someone going into therapy because they ended therapy (correct me if I'm wrong!).
So, we'll do it. It'll just hurt like *^$@^ (^($#%^.
ShortE
Posted by shrinking violet on September 5, 2004, at 19:00:27
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shrinking violet, posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:25:33
>>SV, I don't know when you'll be finished with school, but if you feel your therapist won't end therapy with you in the best way for you, maybe you could talk about it with him/her now?
ShortE, you're so sweet to try to help me when you're going through what you are. :)
I was going to graduate this December, but I've decided to extend it until next May. However, it's still up in the air whether I'll be able to see my T past December (she hasnt given me a straight answer yet, and normally college policy is that they do short-term therapy, and I've already been with her for a year). I have tried to broach the subject with her, but she seems to get a litte uncomfortable when I try to tell her how upset I'll be about it. She also has an odd habit of sometimes turning my issues toward herself; for example, regarding this issue, she said that *she* doesnt want to sit there and think, after I've left her, that I've jumped off a bridge somewhere because I couldnt handle it, and that *she'll* miss me and hope that I'm okay and that she hasnt done me any harm, but *she* wont be sad because she knows she and I tried really hard. Well, that's great for her, but it'll already be easier for her to watch me walk out the door than it will be for me to go. She tends to get very anxious whenever she thinks that she or our relationship could possibly hurt me in some way, so I've decided to just let it be for now and suffer in silence when/if I need to. Besides, what could she do to make the time we have left any easier? Nothing, really, so why burden her with it.
Thanks for the thought. Good luck to you.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2004, at 20:02:59
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by shrinking violet on September 5, 2004, at 19:00:27
But she's *your* therapist. You're not hers! You'd be doing a big favor to her as a therapist not to mention all her future clients if you remind her of that whenever you need to. You're not supposed to be protecting her feelings. She's supposed to be helping you deal with yours, putting her own aside.
I haven't needed to remind my therapist of that often, but in nine years something similar might have come up once or twice. I'm not angry or confrontational about it. I just point out that he would be more helpful to me if he xxxx. I think I even suggested that he seek supervision with something once. I didn't do it in anger or confrontationally. I did it with concern for him being able to perform his best as a therapist (not to mention as my therapist).
Posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 22:49:27
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by shrinking violet on September 5, 2004, at 19:00:27
SV I want to agree at how important it is to say it all.
If you were my friend and there was a big gap in your understanding of me, I would tell you. If you were my lover, my husband, my child - I would tell you.
So it doesn't seem a big leap.
On Friday I told my therapist that he didn't understand,that it was all verywell for him to sit on the other side of the room and tell me that this was not "re-traumatisation" but for me it IS. I KNOW he felt attacked. I also know that he can handle it. I impugned one of the tenents of his profession, of his "core" beliefs: a good therapist doesn't traumatise his patients. And I basicallly accused him of doing so.
But he is a therapist and it's his job to hear these things and deal with it.
If your therapist takes on your stuff, tries to take responsibilty for your feelings, she needs to understand that it's not what you need. You need to explore it on your own terms, not as it impacts her - you know that and she needs to know it. Therapists learn a lot from their patients about doing therapy.I am distracted from my mewling and puking. Thanks.
Take care.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 2:41:37
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by shrinking violet on September 5, 2004, at 19:00:27
I was going to say the same thing as Dinah. I know that when I was in training this past year, there were times I was concerned that something I did or didn't do would be hurtful to the client or result in real harm. My supervisor helped me to see how that was in large part, my own anxiety, which really had no place in the therapy session. Does your T get supervision? She sounds like she is very invested in your well-being, but at times when reading your posts, I perceived a flavor of, "whoa, this T is too invested and has perhaps some countertransference going."
This is just my perception, but it may be in part what is leading to discomfort with you...
I wish you the best no matter how long you are able to stay in therapy. And have a good school term!
Warmly,
gg
Posted by LG04 on September 6, 2004, at 5:18:22
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » LG04, posted by shortelise on September 5, 2004, at 16:39:45
Hi Shortelise, i actually think i will need therapy in america to help me deal with the termination of this therapy relationship. it's so excruciatingly painful for me. our last session is tomorrow. i can't even imagine it. except that i know we'll be talking on the phone. so she'll still be there for me. always, if i need. but she says we will need a "cooling down" period, at which point i might only call her once a month (which i can't even begin to fathom right now), but that we will do it at a slow pace that is right for me. but in general, she said she will always be in my life for me to talk to.
i do not know if i am going to be moving back to israel in the future or not. i will definitely be visiting once or twice a year, perhaps in the summer for over a month. i know i will see her again. but it feels like it will be less close. how do you stay close to your therapist after you terminate? i like her so much, i want to stay close to her.
it's just so painful. i can't believe i am going thru this.
laurie
Posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 9:10:36
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by LG04 on September 6, 2004, at 5:18:22
I'll be thinking about you tomorrow. I hope it goes as well as you hope.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 9:51:59
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shortelise, posted by LG04 on September 6, 2004, at 5:18:22
Oh, Laurie. I am sorry. I know that wasn't your conception of how the separation would go. It must be extra painful because it was a surprise. :(
Posted by shrinking violet on September 6, 2004, at 11:19:40
In reply to Re: more termintion angst » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2004, at 20:02:59
Thanks everyone. I know I should probably mention it to her, but I won't. Mostly I'm afraid if I push the issue, if she really thinks she is harming me in some way, she'll drop me early, and I really need her support right now. I agree with GG,in that I sometimes think my T is too invested in me (although, is that really a bad thing?), and I often wonder if she cares about me too much (??), and I sometimes question her competency (for lack of a better word) in treating long-term clients with complex issues, as opposed to the more surface, "college counseling" she is used to. With that said, I really value her as a person and the closeness of our relationship, whether right or wrong, and whether real or not (she keeps trying to convince me it's real and genuine, and I need to believe it is), or whether it is countertransferential on her part (I dont think so, at least not totally, but I could be wrong), is something I need right now. If it hurts me later on, then I'll have to deal with it then. But, I probably would have gotten hurt anyway; this is a weird relationship, to say the least.
Sorry for the babble.
And I apologize to shortelise, for temporarily stealing your post! Please forgive me!
-SV
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