![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 6, 2004, at 14:47:09
In reply to The Cart Before the Horse, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 2:32:01
I like hearing things like this. It brings peace to the chaos in my mind for a moment. I was looking at some roses the other night. I felt people are like roses. I need to appreciate the now.
Thanks 64.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 14:59:12
In reply to Re: The Cart Before the Horse » 64bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on August 6, 2004, at 11:41:54
GG,
> Somehow, Rod, I think if I could be successful with your recommendations, I would not need therapy. sigh
>
> gg<<< Picture this. I'm sitting off to the side watching therapy going on between one of those certified therapists and their client. Much to my surprise, I get insights that connect unfinished questions to solid answers. Now here's the Gold. Some of the messages are pertinent to the dialog included and some are "free-floaters" I may have wondered about years before.
I wasn't in therepy, but by all accounts from anyone successful in therapy from either side of the table, I was getting therapy - perhaps by proxy.....lol. Now, I'm not saying the purpose was to sit and watch and voyuerize my own therapy. What happened is that this occurred, much to my delight, over and over again.
Looking into the phenomenon, by all accounts from those who could recognize it for what it is, two striking elements emerged. One is that therapists gain insights from experiences in the therapy environment that transcends the incident for them, and may help with their person stuggles or become useful for other client/patients. Thus good therapy can create better therapists by some internal feedback loop.
Another and more fantastic element is this spooky stuff I learned from David Peck in those 100s of two hour study group sessions. About 1/2 the time we had client/patients that we could look at like clinicians studying something in a petrie dish. When they were no-shows or no-one was scheduled, we worked on some abstraction or critiqued David's newest publication draft.
To that end, one awesome technique David either invented or, at least, incorporated use of "out-of-body" visualization guided imagery. To my great surprise, I could be doing it off to the side, "multi-tasking" sorta, while David was busy with the client and the client's concerns.
What I am proposing is that we can be our own therapist if we are ever "ready". And "ready" is a complex terminology! By my continuous harping on "Adulthood", I'm leaking a secret of my process.
Picture this! The client is 40 years old and wishes they could be forever young. Never mind the suffering and the drama-trauma of their youth, they want the fun and the care-free spirit they felt they had and now miss. I come along and burst that bubble from all sides, reminding them all was not very hunky-dory after all. I do encourage them to embrace those skills, attributes, abilities, and the power available to adults not available to children. Suddenly, the client can become ready simply by no longer being restricted by childhood ineptitude.
This changes the game for them forever. They can now extinguish the "social-blackmail" of the "shoulds" brought on by being stuck in an Obligation/Expectation model dysfunctional family, headed up by "King-Baby", instead finding freedom and happiness.... then get therapy!
Freedom doesn't mean care-free and happiness doens't comfort and fun. It means no-internal-conflcts-brought-on-by-violating-obligations-and-misery-brought-on-by-unrealised-expectations. If we aren't bound up with obligations and expectations, we have extra time to be free and happy. Children lack the mandate and the wiring. As adults, we have the mandate and the adequate wiring to accomplish so much more than we did as children.
In summary, as adults we can be off to the side as we recite what is wrong and what needs to be fixed, out of body. The feedback is internal and immediate. As children, we are trapped. In transition, those feelings, behaviors, and motives, that blackmailed us as "grown-up-children" are now extinguished as adults.
Maybe we need a guide, a coach. I don't insist on this because of my personal experience. Perhaps a guide for a time. Then we live our lives adding and incorporating new stuff from that time on. Oh-by-the-way, (OBTW), it only took me 20 plus years to find my way.
GG, I hope this all made some sense...
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:02:34
In reply to Re: The Cart Before the Horse, posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 6, 2004, at 14:47:09
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 15:12:09
In reply to Re: The Cart Before the Horse, posted by B2chica on August 6, 2004, at 9:42:01
Posted by daisym on August 6, 2004, at 15:20:46
In reply to » (((GardenerGirl)))...., I'm No Polyanna, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 14:59:12
Rod,
I've had a similar experience with "watching" someone else's therapy journey...my son's. It is complicated but he was so freaked out when he started he often asked me to sit in because I was his "memory box" and he used me to prime the pump. This was an effective way to get him to look at what was going on and once "we" told the story, he would work on anxiety around it with his therapist.
Problem was, for me, as an observer, all hell broke loose inside me. There are a million parallels, even my therapist comments on how "interesting" it is that we are walking such similar paths in trying to try resolve our inner turmoil and grief.
I was very much the adult until the child inside broke free. Completely uncontrollably. Now the struggle is to help that child grow up and integrate with the adult. Sorry, can't do it without therapy. Because I feel like I'm finding my way back to the place you are suggesting we start from.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:03:04
In reply to Re:, posted by daisym on August 6, 2004, at 15:20:46
>
>Sorry, I can't do it without therapy. Because I feel like I'm finding my way back to the place you are suggesting we start from.
><<< » (((daisym))), You never have to apologise to me, ever...
One item I would appreciate feedback on. This illusion of an inner child is not present in a traversed adult. One way to ferret out what's going on is to sit quietly with your eyes open. In your mind's eye, notice if those flashbacks from childhood are in black and white or perhaps in color.
Also, if you have updated these childhood memories to color, are they the appropriate colors? Do you see independent motion in the background? Are you the only person in the memory?
If distortions remain, such as stillness in the background, these are truly childhood flashbacks. Because they were stored when memories were feelings not real pictures, where they are coming from and when they will link up can horify you as an out-of-control mystery memory.
Causes sleepless nights unless you accept they can't hurt you anymore. That was then and this is now. To worry about the fact that they have a mind of their own, misses the point. You can take charge of your thoughts as an adult. Vanquish your blackmailing thoughts from ram-rodding you into inappropriate distorted feelings.
Note: anything not going on right here and right now is an abstract distortion of reality, a fantasy. Is life worth committing to the limitations of a fantasy? I think not! The childhood notion is that a fantasy is freeing. For adults, where is the freedom of a blackmailing fantasy? You are trapped reliving a distorted memory. Let it go. Let them all go. That's a "start over!"
» (((daisym))) take care of your own self so you can be effective at taking care of your son...
Rod
Posted by daisym on August 6, 2004, at 18:40:20
In reply to Oh » (((daisym))), I hope I am helping, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:03:04
>>>>This illusion of an inner child is not present in a traversed adult.
<<<<I have no idea what this sentence means. I'm trying not to be offended by the word illusion.You are really, really wrong, Rod. These memories can and do still hurt me. Not because the abuse is still going on, but because it went on at all. It still hurts to know that I missed out on something very important (the security of a loving childhood) and I can never, never get it back. The memories are stored in my brain but also in my body. It hurts in the here and now to know that I stiffen when my own child sneaks up behind me to give me a hug.
To gleefully say, "start over" like it doesn't matter that the parent who was suppose to love you and care for you did this to you... Like you don't, in the here and now, still need or want that parent's love...well, I think that is a fantasy itself.
I hear you saying "it's in the past. It's over with. Forget it." OR "Choose to forgive and move past it." I agree that doing one or the other would be ideal.
But it isn't like flipping a switch. It isn't as simple as letting the memories go. You love them and yet you know they failed you. You love them and yet you know they have a really dark side. You love them yet you know they had the power to really hurt you before and you can't trust that they won't do it again.
Mostly, these memories make you hate yourself. And that hurts very much in the here and now.
Posted by Aphrodite on August 6, 2004, at 19:32:08
In reply to Oh » (((daisym))), I hope I am helping, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 18:03:04
>
> You are trapped reliving a distorted memory. Let it go. Let them all go.
>I think the problem is that a step is missing between "you have a distorted memory" and "let it go" and that missing is step is HOW. That is what we need therapy for -- it is the how. Everyone agrees that letting the past go would be freeing, but as a sufferer of repeated traumas, I need a trustworthy and safe professional to guide me.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 6, 2004, at 20:44:28
In reply to » (((GardenerGirl)))...., I'm No Polyanna, posted by 64bowtie on August 6, 2004, at 14:59:12
Rod,
I definitely have had similar experiences such as you have described in observing therapy and in doing therapy. Sometimes it's hard to mask that light bulb popping up over your head. And I definitely use things that resonated with me with my clients when appropriate, and use stuff that resonated with clients again. So your feedback loop makes sense to me.
I think I finally came to understand the core difficulty I have when reading your model--the "suddenly" part. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that "suddenly" someone can make a major paradigm shift just because someone points out the drives for their behavior or asks them to let go.
I have seldom seen or even read about such sudden transformations in a therapy experience. The only example that comes to mind is flood exposure therapy for phobias. If the client sticks with the frightening stimulus long enough, they may experience a sudden relief from their fears once they learn they will come to no harm.
I know in my case in therapy, however, it often takes repetition of the same insight coming up again and again before it sinks into my bones and not just my brain. My sense of what it would be like to try to just let the past go and live in just the present is that it would be an intellectual experience only. It wouldn't sink into my bones and my gut, and thus, would feel false to me.
I believe that children have a basic need for mirroring, validation, and unconditional love from their primary caregivers. The need for Rogers' "good enough" parenting is, IMO, universal. Since I did not get it due to my parents' own issues (alcoholism and narcissism with probably some depression and anxiety thrown in), I have a void in my development. I still NEED that mirroring, validation, and unconditional love. Whenever I am faced with another siutation that reminds me I didn't or am not getting what I still need, a deep well of pain is stirred up. At some point, I believe through forging a better relationship with my husband and through a corrective emotional experience with my T, I believe that void will be filled some or the rest of me will get bigger so that the void seems significantly less of a part of me. I don't think I can just choose to feel that way now. I believe it takes filling of the well, bucket by bucket to meet the need. Unless I win the mirroring/validating lottery and choose a lump sum payout, it's not going to happen overnight. Would that it would. Cause I've got a lot to offer.
Thanks for making me think, as always,
gg
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22
In reply to Re: Oh » 64bowtie, posted by daisym on August 6, 2004, at 18:40:20
> You are really, really wrong, Rod. These memories can and do still hurt me.
><<< Thank you for being clear! I did not say the memories can't hurt you. [Aside], how do memories hurt anyone? Why would anyone give that much power and energy to an abstraction, a story about what happened to you, that it, the abstraction has the ability to take action against your senses and physically cause pain? Believe me I used to, however, I don't anymore.
Memories can be "of the pain", but only in the abstract. If you replay the incident, you can feel more pain. It will be your doing not that of someone not present. "As-if" doesn't qualify as the embodiment of the person that originally caused the pain.
What I said was with the pronoun "they". For "that", I apologise. Replace "they" with "those people, places, things, ideas" (finish) ...can no longer hurt you. Those folks etc, can't hurt you. Those folks etc, can't hurt you. Those folks etc, can't hurt you. You can give permission to the pain rationalising that the feelings are real so the folks etc appear to be still be hurting you. But they ain't anwhere in sight, so stop blaming them.
The issue seems unresolved so it evokes irrational pain, granted. Is any of the pain valid? Must we relieve you of inconsolability by validating your pain? Not me! Bad idea! Consoling me never changed anything for me. Living in the here and now is so much nicer than reliving the painful past. I just choose to live in the here and now and time and tides take care of the past. Its not denial of the past. Its a choice to not succumb to the high-jacking of my feelings.
If I placated you by validating your pain ,I would then be a player in your psycho-drama of abstractions creating irrational pain. Is that what you want from me? For me to be your patsy? I would be validating the "kidnapper" of your sensibilties and blackmailer of your emotions. My motives are surer than that. So, don't enlist myself or another person to validate this "bad" habit of yours. I say "bad" because it causes so much trouble in your life and takes away value, according to what you say avbout it.
If the mind, [I joke sometimes and say, "the mind....... is a terrible place to be",] if the mind is running the memory like a vcr runs a movie tape, don't you have final say over the starting and stopping? Driven by your visceral cortex, maybe not. Driven by your higher order brain functions, you have final say as to when things start and stop. Children who aren't transitioned properly into adulthood may get stuck driven by their gut. I was there, and now I'm not. I remember how and what stopped me and I am passing it on to whomever is ready.
I have tried for months herein to shake all loose from their notions that what they are is all they are. When they react like children, they miss golden opportunities one after the other to be! Be-ing is something adults are good at and children messup their lives trying to do toooo soon.
The threshhold is now wide and clearly visable with work of the neuro-folks in the Universities and other labs. Everyone gets adult attributes, skills and abilities just as soon as the pubic hair is done sprouting; for some as late as age 15.
From 15 to 25, society accepts trial and error as common practice. After age 25, all can (I repeat can) be well practiced in their new tools so as to live that good life so much is written about.
I hold out my hand to you and ask that you try something forgotten by the ages. This is all ancient wisdom. Man came here with all the necessary eguipment to even stay sane if they want to. Accepting your adulthood is not giving up anything. Its adding value to your warchest of life.
And I do apologise for the "they" pronoun misunderstandings.
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:42:32
In reply to Re: Oh » 64bowtie, posted by Aphrodite on August 6, 2004, at 19:32:08
>...but as a sufferer of repeated traumas, I need a trustworthy and safe professional to guide me.>
><<< I quote: "The pain is real. The misery and suffering are optional!"
Ask your therapist what good it is that you purpetrate all this on yourself. Are you ever better off getting to the bottom of the feelings? You relive the story(ies) as though you can't let go. I know this because, this is me 20 years ago. Could you be reliving the pain and suffering as a habit gone bad?
I have asked those very questions about myself to many individuals and many groups. I was once told I'm not supposed to ask questions like that. Hmmmm.... Wrongo! Its my life! I'll ask any dang question I want to about my life!
Dredging through the swamp may seem like "foundation building" but it is ever only more and more and more dredging. BTW, foundations are best built on dry land, not the swamp (of our unresolved internal conflicts).
Remember, we relive the story about what happened. Norman Bates in the movie "Psycho" found this frustrating so he re-enacted what happened to get the true sense of the drama-trauma. Is attaching so much meaning to a mere story worth all that re-suffering?
The change can actually be sudden, if you want. Perhaps therapy is best for you until that moment when it is no longer relevant. I always hope for sooner (irrelevant) and never forever (relevant).
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 3:50:31
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on August 6, 2004, at 20:44:28
((((GG)))),
If you ever fear that you are detecting incivility from me, I bet we clear it up as only a typo on my part. I do type with my elbows alot, sorta, in the wee hours, like now.....lol.
> I definitely have had similar experiences such as you have described in observing therapy and in doing therapy. Sometimes it's hard to mask that light bulb popping up over your head. And I definitely use things that resonated with me with my clients when appropriate, and use stuff that resonated with clients again. So your feedback loop makes sense to me.
><<< Isn't that a great surprise? I found joy in that giddy feeling that I've undergone something so new and so unexpected.
> I think I finally came to understand the core difficulty I have when reading your model--the "suddenly" part. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that "suddenly" someone can make a major paradigm shift just because someone points out the drives for their behavior or asks them to let go.
><<< The unpopular truth is that yes, it happens suddenly. One day you are messed up and the next day you are free and happy. There is an ongoing dispute as to how long that day really is, however. Never-the-less, when I looked back, it all seemed so simple and yes, sudden.
So, your point is clear and well taken. However, I'm not talking spontaneous. I am talking seems-so-sudden. Lots can go on to contribute to that magical big AH-HAH! moment. Its always preceeded by copious amounts of little ah-hahs, sorta like big Earthquakes are preceeded many times by thousands of tiny foreshocks as the offending plate loosens its grip on the moving adjacent plate. Then, WHAM, WHAM, WHAM, (as it did to us for the first six seconds of the 45 second long 1989 Loma Prieta Quake. I was 15 miles from ground zero for that one, so I'm still shaking!!!)
>Would that it would. Cause I've got a lot to offer.
><<< I sensed this to be true about you and that's why I asked the question I did that you turned me down for.
You are gonna be good for all. This isn't tea-leaves talking. I see/hear clarity and comapssion in big doses. I am lacking in both categories. My form of involvement is less comapassion and more messing with people and their ideas. I am a technician mostly.
I am continuimg my contract with David Peck about discovering my charisma, even though he has passed away. I have a far-piece yet to go on that one. I have some resolution to my second contract with him. He asked me to work on my impulsive "class-clown" acting out. I joke a little, but not incessantly like in the past. Surprisingly, I'm still here and its gone. I don't miss it. So why did it feel so Ok all the time and now I don't miss it? That was all really quite sudden as things go. I just stopped wanting to be the joker-clown. It wasn't a genetic overhaul that caused that change in me. My sense of humor is still intact. I can still laugh at something funny, and laugh so hard I can't breath, like I have all my life... Sure feels good just thinking about laughing that hard!!!
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:09:23
In reply to Re: Oh... (((daisym))) please.........., posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22
So I am asking you not to direct posts of this nature to me. I don't come to this board for therapy. I understand you're trying to be helpful, but due to my own personality qualities, this approach would not be at all helpful towards me. I want to be able to remain in a dialogue with you, and am looking forward to discussing DiMasio (sp?) and neuroscience.
How is your coaching business going? Do your students respond well to this approach? I'm always a bit curious as to how different people respond. I know, for example, that biofeedback guy has a thriving business. And I know that everyone is different and different people respond well to different approaches. I'm just curious if this is an approach that works well with 10% or 90% of the population that comes to you.
(P.S. - You told gardenergirl something that interested me, so I'll continue my reply to you below.)
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:16:02
In reply to OK, let's talk about it..... » gardenergirl, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 3:50:31
> You are gonna be good for all. This isn't tea-leaves talking. I see/hear clarity and comapssion in big doses. I am lacking in both categories. My form of involvement is less comapassion and more messing with people and their ideas. I am a technician mostly.
Do you feel that compassion and being a technician are incompatible? Wouldn't compassion and clarity be useful to cultivate in a technician "messing with people and their ideas"? I would think that compassion and empathy, at the very least, would be a useful guide to you in helping you reach others - even if you don't believe they should influence the *content* of what you say, they might help you be a more effective technician?
Posted by daisym on August 7, 2004, at 14:25:15
In reply to Re: Oh... (((daisym))) please.........., posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22
Can't debate this with you right now. Struggling too hard to not fall apart completely to be coherent. But will say that the practical aspects of what you are asking me to do mean letting go of my family -- not having their love, such as it is. I don't see how going unconnected and unloved can contribute to my happiness.
It isn't the memories that hurt per se, obviously...it is the ramifications of all of it...being unlovable, being so bad that you got left, never being good enough, still, to this day...wanting these people to say they are sorry and to love you no matter what and who you've become.
I don't need you to validate my pain. You are just one more person telling me I'm suppose to shrug my shoulders and say "Oh, well" and keep going. I'm trying.
No response needed.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 15:15:17
In reply to Re: Continued..., posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:16:02
*** You are gonna be good for all. This isn't tea-leaves talking. I see/hear clarity and comapssion in big doses. I am lacking in both categories. My form of involvement is less comapassion and more messing with people and their ideas. I am a technician mostly.
>
> Do you feel that compassion and being a technician are incompatible? Wouldn't compassion and clarity be useful to cultivate in a technician "messing with people and their ideas"? I would think that compassion and empathy, at the very least, would be a useful guide to you in helping you reach others - even if you don't believe they should influence the *content* of what you say, they might help you be a more effective technician?<<< By my own admission, "I am lacking" is my statement that I need to work on these points. Nothing is all-or-nothing. Restated, I am not satisfied with my level of compassion. I am well grounded as a technician. I am a technician who didn't start from a model of compassion, so its harder for me to connect to compassion in a timely fashion; day-late, dollar-short. I am dedicated to work on that. David contracted with me to commit to a study to enhance my own charisma. I continue this quest. Its my grail.
<<< By continuing to work on my communication skills. I can be technically and legally correct and not saying anything meaningful. Back to compassion....
> Wouldn't compassion and clarity be useful to cultivate in a technician "messing with people and their ideas"? I would think that compassion and empathy, at the very least, would be a useful guide to you in helping you reach others...
><<< You bet it would. I have proven this to myself almost every time I open my mouth.
(((Dinah))), do I still have permission to cyber-hug inside my post?
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 15:34:15
In reply to I would be hurt if those posts were directed to me » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:09:23
> So I am asking you not to direct posts of this nature to me. I don't come to this board for therapy.
><<< Gotcha loud and clear.
(((DaisyM))) did say I was "very wrong" and I didn't protest as her being uncivil. I tried to clarify and point that we were talking about two different "theys"... always a problem when employing pronouns. My anticedent to "they" was the people she still blamed for continually hurting her, who are no longer there to hurt her.
I am honestly not telling her to shrug her shoulders and go on. I am not committing any therapy of any kind. I am pointing out the falasy of philosophical logic that if you still hurt, the person who originated the pain is still causing the pain. Can't! They are no longer doing it, here in the here and now. So, I bet a therapist could help her turn the corner and see that she is doing the pain to herself, no matter why. I'm not saying what the next step is for her, but I do relate what the next step was for me when I got that big AAH-HAH! for myself. Is that me committing an act of therapy by accident? Let me know. The model works well in 12 step meetings but may not be appropriate here. My guess is that since I relate the etiology of my personal lesson, I'm not overstepping my bounds. I want only what's best for (((DaisyM))), and to be accepted by her in that light.
I apologise if I was toooo direct. I'll continue to find a good balance.
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 15:46:58
In reply to I would be hurt if those posts were directed to me » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 10:09:23
> How is your coaching business going? Do your students respond well to this approach? I'm always a bit curious as to how different people respond. I know, for example, that biofeedback guy has a thriving business. And I know that everyone is different and different people respond well to different approaches. I'm just curious if this is an approach that works well with 10% or 90% of the population that comes to you.
><<< I don't have any Coaching trainees yet, what I would call students. I am working so hard on the bigger picture that I only have a few clients I coach, and a few companies that have me talk to new-hires about the art of "...just getting along". I also continue to volunteer some at Drug and Alcohol intake agencies, where folks are sent by the courts in lieu of extended jail time.
Hope that is a clear snapshot.
Rod
Posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:03:46
In reply to Re: Oh, posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:42:32
I find my childhood of abuse and neglect to be more than a "mere story."
Posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 17:01:59
In reply to Re: Oh » 64bowtie, posted by Aphrodite on August 7, 2004, at 16:03:46
> I find my childhood of abuse and neglect to be more than a "mere story."
><<< I don't challenge that at all. I honor your rights to your feelings, motives, and behaviors. That said, I point out that I used to, toooo. At that time my pain was overwhelming. When it dawned on me that I was having the same pains over and over again because the story I remembered didn't seem to change, I got curious as to why. Along the way, I became clear that I was being driven to re-enact the pain as some feeble attempt to change the results, but mostly I would suffer, in silence.
When I pictured what it was that I was going over and over was only a story about the painful incident, not the incident itself, I experimented by telling myself backwards, while adding and deleting pertinent facts randomly. Pretty soon the real story looked like some joke I was telling myself.
By accepting the nature of the memories that continued to high-jack my emotions, The pain immediately became a burden and was easily extinguished, probably forever.
I hope you can tell that "I been there, done that" and am not just talking through a hole in my hat. It was 15 to 20 years ago now, so I have many years reliving the success story instead of the pain story. I am asking you if you see continuing to be blackmailed by your past to be a good thing or a bad thing. It's OK by me for you to choose either way, your choice. Sorry if I sounded judgemental before.
Rod
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04
In reply to Re: Oh... (((daisym))) please.........., posted by 64bowtie on August 7, 2004, at 2:04:22
I hope you didn't mis-take the reason behind my posts. I wasn't challenging your credentials or asking you to prove that you are a professional. I wouldn't do that. I just realize that not everyone is interested in the sort of reparenting/attachment theory/self psychology therapy that Daisy and I prefer, and that has served me quite well. There have been a number of posts lately to that effect (that some people would prefer a less dependent, more direct approach). And that's cool. I am a firm believer in individual differences and one size does not fit all and your mileage may vary. I certainly know that biofeedback guy had a large clientele. But I was curious as to how your more direct approach was received by the population as a whole.
If someone were to tell me that I was choosing my misery, even if they believe it to be true, I would be unlikely to listen to anything else that person had to say.
If someone were to tell me that my inner child was an illusion, my inner child (for want of a better phrase) would be highly insulted and utterly furious. "Illusion", "archaic inner child remnant", and for that matter, "inner child" are all phrases that would arouse fury and reduce the chances that any further words, no matter how sage, would have any effect.
And if anyone were to tell me "If I placated you by validating your pain ,I would then be a player in your psycho-drama of abstractions creating irrational pain. Is that what you want from me? For me to be your patsy? I would be validating the "kidnapper" of your sensibilties and blackmailer of your emotions. My motives are surer than that. So, don't enlist myself or another person to validate this "bad" habit of yours.", even if that statement is considered civil to Dr. Bob, I would be forced to engage the request not to post. And probably engage in a useless debate with Dr. Bob, and storm off from the board for at least three days. (So my secondary purpose was to ensure we didn't get into that unpleasant sort of relationship.)
But I realize that not everyone is me, and that "plain talk" directness works well with some people. And that is absolutely fascinating to me. I mean, I enjoy listening to Dr. Laura, not Dr. Phil so much, but I still find the whole thing fascinating. Because to me the idea that someone would say "Oh, ok, I'm causing my own pain. I'll change that right away." is so absolutely foreign to every particle of my being that it can't help but hold a certain fascination for me. Especially the fascination of knowing how *many* people respond to that in a positive way. Because, I suppose, that tells me how much of the population might as well be space aliens for all I understand them.But getting back to the technical question. Do you think it might be more productive to ask people if they would like you to assess them in a direct manner before you do it? Then if they agree, they (like Dr. Laura's callers and Dr. Phil's guests) would be more likely to take it well because they have an investment in taking it well. I would guess that most people who say "Sure, I can take it", would feel some responsibility to be able to take it well.
Posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 20:25:48
In reply to Re: technical questions » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04
hi guys,
this post is fascinating to me. I hope you don't mind if I chime in (not with any analyses of you, or suggestions for anyone...just my own feelings.)I like to listen to Dr. Laura because she cuts through the cr** and 'tells it like it is.'
And I like to 'tell it like it is' sometimes too. But I also know that even though I profess to like the 'tell it like it is' style, I'm also not always up for 'being told like it is', even if that is sort of hypocritical.I was reading a book about therapy called Reality Therapy in Action by William Glasser, M.D. and I both loved it and hated it. The author posited that most (if not all) neuroses and psychological problems are self-caused and CAN be self-fixed without meds. Naturally I really found that offensive and small-minded. I also loved it, and thought that in some cases it was probably very true, for me and for others.
The doctor gave examples of how he 'cured' OCD, alcoholism, panick attacks, and a girl who was hearing voices by basically finding the relationship that was causing the issues, and helping them fix it. His belief is that ALL problems are the result of a poor relationship of some kind.
I started thinking about my own problems and if I could fix some of them by telling myself to 'shape up' or else, da**it. I determined that SOME problems could be fixed(procrastination). And maybe some COULD, but the time would need to be right. I used to be terrified of flying, and no amount of being told 'get the heck over it, it's a dumb fear' helped me, even though I knew this was true. I don't know exactly how I stopped. One day I simply told myself: "This is killing you. Your blood pressure goes up, you take too much Xanax and drink too much alcohol on planes, last time you threw up on the way home, you don't enjoy your trips -- let's get over it, mind." And for some reason, my mind was ready to make the change, so I switched from fearful flyer to normal flyer.
But I don't know if I could have done that if this doctor got in my face and told me all those things (you're hurting yourself, it's a silly fear, you don't enjoy your trips.) I also don't think the fear of flying was due to a bad relationship (unless you consider the relationship of Me + Fear of Death to be a relationship.)
I guess I like to be 'told like it is' but with compassion, humor and respect. If a doctor (or other person) acts too hoity-toity, super-intellectual, condescending, I get really turned off and want to argue with them just because their personality irritates me. If the same doctor approaches me with the humor and respect and a 'let's solve this jointly' approach, I would definitely be more open to the brutal honesty approach. (becuase it wouldn't actually be so brutal!)
On the other hand, I don't want people to completely sugar-coat things to me either. I've known people at work who are so scared to criticize a business plan that they spend 10 minutes timidly saying, "This may be stupid, and I know I'm not smart like you guys, and I know my ideas usually suck, and I apologize in advance if I hurt anyone's feeling in any way, and this might be totally off the mark and if so I'm sorry for wasting all your time and the air in the room, but maybe, is it just a teensy bit possible, that those numbers are off? I have my cyanide pill here if you tell me i'm wrong," and that irritates me too.
I guess the part of the book I liked was the reminder that I DO have control over lots of things in my life, and I AM responsible for making changes. Even if I'm depressed or anxious or fearful, I have a ton of capability to be positive and fix my own issues, at least some of them. That's a cool thing to remember. It makes me feel empowered.
Another book I was reading, Talk is Not Enough, How Psychotherapy Really Works, by Willard Gaylin, M.D., kind of went along the same lines - we have the power to change our own neuroses and problems. I liked hearing this; again it made me feel empowered.
However --when he went on to posit that anyone who is overweight is making a choice to be overweight, that really made me want to go ballistic. I know that I DO control my weight myself, but I also believe that I am genetically pre-disposed to being heavy and that my body just likes food. He would disagree, say that none of that is tru, and say that I'm being weak or choosing to be overweight as some kind of compensation for my inability to function in some capacity. That irritated me! (Or maybe it hits too close to home???)
Has anyone else read these books? (Reality Therapy in Action, by William Glasser, M.D. and Talk is Not Enough, by Willard Gayline, M.D.)
If so, what did you think of them?
JenStar
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44
In reply to Re: technical questions, posted by JenStar on August 7, 2004, at 20:25:48
I've read Glasser, and enjoyed him. I also read the Gaylin book, but apparently brought away a completely different message. I remember it being about the importance of the therapeutic relationship? But maybe I'm wrong. I've got in in front of me, and should re-read it.
But Reality Therapy really is no nonsense, and as I said I enjoyed it, and enjoy Dr. Laura too. But I fired biofeedback guy in three or four sessions because I found him blunt and abrasive. So maybe I'd have fired Glasser too. :)
If you met me in real life, and I'm not sure it comes over well on the board, you'd probably see a no nonsense, totally unromantic, sensible soul who does what works. I spent years and years doing what worked until that approach quit working. :)
Sorry to those who have heard my story before, but here it is. From age 11-14, my world as I knew it fell apart. I became the picked on kid at school (that was the biggie I think), I went from being an only child to having a school aged brother (the son my parents always wanted), my best friend first separated herself from me, then moved away entirely. My alchoholic uncle whom I despised, and the feeling was mutual, moved in to live with us. My parents were their usual warring parties, maybe worse because of my uncle and because of me. I acted out big time, totally fell apart, although I somehow managed to do well enough at school. My absenteeism shot sky high as I pretended to be ill, I developed an obsessive phobia about vomit that severely limited my activities, and I was well on my way to becoming agoraphobic. I had temper tantrums, and generally caused scenes enough places that my parents dragged me to a rather ineffectual psychiatrist who put me on heavy duty drugs.
Somewhere about a year from the end of that time, I decided that how I was behaving wasn't getting me what I wanted. I was on horrible terms with my parents, and everything was being made worse by my behavior. So I just stopped. I stopped taking the drugs. I stopped acting crazy. I stopped refusing to go places. I hid the phobia, made socially acceptable excuses where necessary, did what I needed to do. And it worked! I still felt awful, but no one cared how I felt. All they could see was that I was back to being a good girl. I had never been exposed to Reality Therapy or CBT or anything else. But I had come up with a lot of the concepts on my own. Exposure and response prevention, breathing, visualization, a version of Reality Therapy, an enormous amount of doing what worked.
Yet I wasn't a success story. Something went horribly wrong in my self imposed therapy. On the surface I was high functioning, getting along with my family (or as well as anyone could). I thought I was fine myself.
So part of what gets me angry about the pull yourself up by the bootstraps theories is that I want to shout "I KNOW THAT!!!! I INDEPENDENTLY INVENTED THAT!!!! And I know that there are things it can't fix." I want to yell that those simple very rational sounding and lovely words didn't fix me. They just made me function better in society. They made everyone else perfectly happy. They allowed me to function in society as society wanted me to function. But the cost to myself was way too high.
So do I need to hear all the sensible ways of dealing with my vomit phobia? No. That wasn't at all healing for me. It was healing for others around me, true. :) It took a therapist doing mirroring and acceptance and all those nice touchy feely things to let me start to truly let go of the fear. I'm not a hundred percent yet. But the obsessiveness is so much less now.
To me all those sensible things are words, just pretty words. I like them as much as anyone. I nod in solemn agreement with their very self obviousness. Of COURSE, that's true. Yet I also know it's not true at all.
Am I making no sense? Probably. I am very capable of holding completely opposing viewpoints. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on August 7, 2004, at 23:55:09
In reply to Re: technical questions » JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 21:49:44
Dinah,
You are making so much sense to me it scares me. :) Actually, *I* invented all those things...although perhaps you did it slightly before me. I feel the same way, wanting to scream "I know that". That's part of the self-doubt and depression for me. It's part of feeling like a fraud or a failure, because what makes perfectly reasonable sense doesn't help. Of course those things sound perfectly reasonable. But they leave me flat. And if it were just that, I trust that I have the cognitive capacity to implement those strategies.And like you, I can use them to be socially acceptable, but it doesn't make me feel any better. That's why I always said I needed a very smart therapist who would see through my smiling and nodding in agreement to the quivering mass of fear and self-doubt and pain underneath. I'm glad I found that!
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on August 8, 2004, at 0:08:14
In reply to Re: technical questions » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2004, at 19:32:04
> My motives are surer than that. So, don't enlist myself or another person to validate this "bad" habit of yours.",
My "aha" is that although I and others have responded to your posts and I am intrigued by it, I think the "enlistment" part has been missing from these dialogs. Your threads often come standing alone versus in response to a poster's request for feedback or advice (although I have also seen you reach out to posters in need :) ). But I think part of what I feel is a bit like I've experienced unsolicited advice that feels critical in some way to me. I recognize that this perception of criticism is my own issue and likely is not coming from you, but that is what is bothersome to me. I can feel my self-doubt and anger with myself flaring.
Just wanted to share this observation I had. It may not be what anyone else experiences. But I do think it can get in my way of an effective dialog about your model.
Take care,
gg
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