![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by partlycloudy on July 27, 2004, at 13:26:45
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
I think being truly honest with this T who seems to be promising after just a few sessions, will not hurt you in their eyes. I have honesty issues with my T as well, and I'm painfully aware that being that way cripples the value of the therapy. If I can't be completely honest, then the T isn't getting the whole story, so the therapy will be missing a critical piece of the puzzle.
I live with enough shame every day not to torture myself with keeping back from my T. For me too, it isn't only about trust, but about how valuable the therapy is. It's my life that potentially hangs in the balance, so ultimately it's in my best interest, no matter how painfully difficult or shameful, to be honest with my T.
For me, writing things down has helped me defuse some of the shame and alienation. Sometimes I can't bring myself to read it aloud, but just hand it over like I'm waiting for a grade to be passed back.
And many times, I'll have all the intentions of bringing up painfully honest items but find myself incapable of blurting it out at all. In those cases I talk-dance around the subject and leave wishing my T was a mind reader instead of a human being.
Maybe close your eyes? Maybe ask if you can leave the room to go potty? Whatever you can do to make the process less tortuous will help.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 27, 2004, at 14:12:59
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
Aw, Racer. Don't be so hard on yourself.
If you didn't have trust issues before, the recent therapy experiences would causee them. And you've only been going a few weeks.
I don't know all the story with Dr. Candy, but I do remember that he had discussed you with people who had nothing to do with your care. And that he was downplaying your symptoms and blaming you for not getting better. Jeesh, that would bother anyone.
Suppose you had bleeding ulcers and a doctor gave you medicine fot it. And you noticed it wasn't helping, and you're still bleeding and it looks like it's increasing, not decreasing. And the doctor told you to be patient and give it time.
Would that be your fault?
And if that happened and everyone working in his clinic of quacks knew about it and looked at like there is something wrong with you, you would probably be torn between two things a) the self doubt of maybe he's right and b) mistrust of any treatment you get.
You posted quite often about this a little while back. Those messages showed the self doubt and the pain, but also had information as to why you were feeling it. Maybe you could print those out and take with you instead of writing something new.
The really important thing is that you have been in real pain over this for a long while. A good therapist should help you put it in perspective.
Good Luck.
Posted by vwoolf on July 27, 2004, at 14:54:30
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
Racer, you answered my post so kindly that I want to try and put in my word here even though I'm probably the last person who should. I think that anything that you have felt strongly enough about to sit down and write to PsychoBabble about must be important enough to take to therapy. Your therapist is trained to try and get inside you and see the world through your eyes, so she would really want to know about anything you feel is important. She can only know and understand if you tell her. I've told my therapist some really blood-curdling things about myself, as well as things I'm not sure were true but were worrying me as much as if they were true. Her answer was that it doesn't matter whether they are true or not, we can deal with them anyway. If I were you, I would put on a bold face and show her what you posted. I am sure she will be gentle.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2004, at 15:11:14
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
When I first started in therapy, I think I disclosed things slowly. I would disclose one part of it, test his reaction, disclose some more, test his reaction. That way nothing was quite as scary.
I never *lied* to him, but being open was a process of steps, not leaps.
Of course now I just blurt out whatever I'm thinking, because I can't imagine having anything left that's worse than what I've already told him.
But maybe it would be less scary for you if you saw it as a process rather than an event. A process that involves not only disclosure but also the deepening of trust between you and your new therapist.
Of course, others like to tear the bandaid right off. :)
Posted by antigua on July 27, 2004, at 16:45:35
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
Racer, it seems to me that you're back in the same pattern--of whether or not you are willing to take the risk. The risk hasn't worked out very well for you (or me for that matter) at times and you need to decide if you do trust her enough. Even though that's always part of the process (trusting your T), I think we can still hold onto a bit of it to save ourselves. I've trusted and been hurt many times, but I've trusted and been helped as well, so I guess I have a "sliding scale" of trust that I work within. I'm usually an all or nothing person, and when I last trusted a T (not my current one, whom I trust absolutely) I jumped in w/both feet, w/o checking to see if the water would burn me. And I was burnt badly. Sometimes I think I'll never learn.
Maybe you just need to tell her so that you've told someone. She will help you if you can, and I can only repeat the same thing I tell myself over and over again--there aren't any surprises. They've heard so many stories and are trained to respect you.
Just my rambling.
best,
antigua
Posted by coral on July 27, 2004, at 17:52:00
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
Dear Racer,
There's one practical reason for getting it on the table now. It's early in therapy and if this therapist doesn't handle the information effectively, you're less invested than if this came up in a few months.
Getting horrible treatment from a medical professional does scar and yes, I do hold them to a higher standard.
During the depths of the depression I experienced, I received blisteringly awful, incompetent and damaging treatment from a doctor for ten months. This was a medical doctor, not my incredible psychotherapist.
It took me seven long years to go see another physician. He was recommended by my therapist and has been absolutely wonderful. His practice normally doesn't take my insurance and he agreed to take me as a patient and made an exception re: the insurance. At the first appointment w/him, I explained everything that had happened (which made me sound like a blithering idiot). He listened patiently and said, "Yeah, Doc XXX has issues treating women." It's hard to explain the relief and validation I felt.
However, he's leaving private practice and I have to find another doctor, (probably in a difference practice, due to the ins. situation). I find that I'm relieving the grief from the bad doc...
Hope it goes well for you, dear Racer...
Coral
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 11:39:20
In reply to Re: Scared to be honest about something with T » Racer, posted by antigua on July 27, 2004, at 16:45:35
Would you like to share how you were burnt? I find these discussions really helpful on my own path.
If not, thanks for reading anyway.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 28, 2004, at 12:15:45
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
At least your new therapist isn't affiliated with Doc candy. If I remember, that was a large part of the problem before - and caused your old therapist to not take you seriously enough.
Posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:53:54
In reply to Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by Racer on July 27, 2004, at 12:35:56
Racer, I know this is terribly off topic, and I'm sorry that I can't address your question.
I just wanted to compliment you: You use words very nicely! Some of your posts are very literary and well-written. Are you a writer by profession? (don't answer if it's too personal a question!)
I like many of your word choices (miasma!)
Anyway, I wish you the very best of luck with this difficult situation. Sorry I can't offer advice.JenStar
Posted by gardenergirl on July 28, 2004, at 20:58:38
In reply to Re: Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:53:54
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
In reply to For antigua, posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 11:39:20
No, I don't mind at all. I've told it before and with more time passing it changes every time.
Last spring I decided to try out a CBT group that my MD (great person) had recommended. My regular T was away and I just jumped in w/o even consulting her (probably my first mistake). Like many PTSD sufferers (csa)I have very distorted expectations of other people's behavior. I know I don't see the world very clearly and I wanted to recognize and replace this distorted perception w/more "acceptable" behavior. I wanted to learn to respond in another way. I admit that I was frustrated w/my long-term (13 years!)therapy and felt stuck. I've been steadily making progress, and I love my T, but I wanted it all to be over faster (ha! what a joke. can't rush this)
So I went to this group everyday for six weeks. At the end of the first phase a decision would be made as to whether we would continue w/a weekly long-term group. We were assigned a T for individual sessions as well. The T I picked was a quiet, soft-spoken, intelligent, person. I picked him because he didn't call up anything specific in me and I thought that was a good sign. I felt no sexual feelings toward him at all and that felt comfortable.
We spent the six weeks w/him encouraging my trust, encouraging me to open up to the group and admit that I had experienced csa as a young girl. He kept telling me that he couldn't help if I didn't trust him. To his credit, he worked very hard at it (I obviously have male issues). Despite reservations, I did open up in group. The reaction wasn't positive, or I didn't perceive it as such, but I figured he was the professional and knew what he was doing (second mistake).
At the end of the first phase, he decided that I was to continue w/long-term weekly group therapy w/him and another T, who I liked well enough. I signed the insurance papers, etc. and accepted the decision.
I had one session left and he called me into his office and stunned me by saying "we've decided we can't help you anymore" and was going to refer me out. In essence, he said I was out of there and he showed me to the door. All in about two minutes. He seemed to be nervous and wanted me out of there as fast as possible. He made it clear he didn't want to have anything more to do w/me, which of course kicked my "shame factor" into high gear. I didn't have a clue as to what was going on. Maybe I was just naive to believe everything he had told me. I was terribly embarrased and mortified. I had shared my painful secrets and I was that disgusting of a creature that even he couldn't stand me anymore, or at least that was what I thought.
I was absolutely stunned. Now, it isn't that he was going to refer me out (that may have been the better plan) but it is the WAY he did it. I felt absolutely betrayed after I had done everything that had been asked of me (trusting, taking risks, etc.) He didn't even acknowledge that we had already agreed to the next phase, and he didn't explain why he was doing this or why he had changed his mind.
As the guy was sitting in his chair, it hit me like a brick: he was just like my father, who had brutally betrayed me in every way possible: verbally, physically, emotionally and sexually. Then I looked closer and recognized all of the similarities w/my father, both in his physical appearance and character traits. How could I have missed it? I couldn't believe it. He was acting very authoritarian, which my father was as well.
The fall out was (and still is) horrible. It sent me into a spiraling downward, very dangerous depression. It put me right back to square one. My poor T had to pick up the pieces.
And that was it. It was the FIRST time I had ever reached out to a male figure and he responded in the worst possible way for me. Maybe it was the type of therapy, I don't know, but it sure didn't start out that way. I can't even understand it intellectually, which is my usual response, or rationalize it. I guess it was like being a little girl and wanting to know "why" but there never will be an answer.
For many months, and to a certain extent even today, I was engulfed with strong, sexual transference feelings toward him and no way to resolve them. The whole nature of this "figment" relationship had changed and I was left just as I was as a young girl--shamed, humiliated and all alone.
Any responsible T could see that this was inappropriate. He left me to die. Since I have no explanation I'm left to my own distorted thoughts (which I went into CBT to correct!) He did so much damage--there is no redeeming value to what I experienced, none. There is no good side to this at all. The only lesson he taught me is that no man in authority can be trusted and I still feel very ashamed. I'm not being harsh on myself, it's just the facts really. I can't take this and help build a better relationship in the future. It was a devastating experience.
Any questions?
antigua
Posted by Susan47 on July 29, 2004, at 11:01:35
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
Oh, antigua,
what you've been through is just terrible.
If I were in your position, I would write a letter to the therapist who unreasonably shunned you. He needs to know what the consequences of his actions were. It is a therapist's job to *help*; not harm. To me, it sounds as he did a lot of harm. He should not get away with that, not without having to provide a reasonable explanation.
Here's a question: What does you long-term therapist say about his behaviour?
I'm really looking forward to your reply. The man sounds like an ....
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 11:20:58
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
You can choose to ignore this, but I feel for you so deeply on this one -- it's so similar in many ways to what I experienced with the Therapist From The Black Lagoon, so I may be projecting my empathy for myself onto you. Whatever the root cause, I still feel for you.
That must be a terrible thing to experience.
Have you asked your long term therapist to look into it for you? Maybe request your chart from that CBT crowd and see if there's anything in there that could clarify it in her eyes, and then work with you to process your pain based on more complete information? That's pretty much what I've done about TTFTBL: I asked our marriage counselor to get a copy of my chart, to read it and see if she finds it accurate according to her acquaintance with me. I know she can't show it to me directly, and can't really even tell me what's in it, but at least someone I do trust will be in a position to "protect" me in some weird sense in my mind. Just knowing that she has the file now helps, even though she hadn't had a chance to read it when we saw her last.
Again, this hasn't had any practical result whatsoever -- BUT it has really, really relieved some of my distress, and it has made me feel safer and more protected somehow. Only you can decide if doing something similar might be helpful to you, but it is something to consider.
Best wishes.
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 12:10:49
In reply to Re: Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:53:54
Thank you for the compliment. While I'm not a writer, I value good writing very highly. It means a lot to me that others think I do it well.
I'm very insecure about my writing, actually, so comments like yours have a remarkable amount of resonance for me. I know that the thought that, no matter how bad everything else in my life might be, JenStar thinks I write well will help buoy me up today, and probably tomorrow, too.
I have written a few things I'm pleased with, including a few essays published in one form or another over the years. I'd like to do more, and often try to get the motivation up to sustain the effort, but it's rarer and rarer as time goes by. Maybe compliments like yours will help boost me over the edge one day.
If I write well, by the way, it's from a combination of having read well, and from a deep and intuitive belief that language is an important element of our thinking. It's an expression of my interest in linguistics, sociology, psychology, and anthropology, but it's also just because words are such fascinating tools. If I say, "I feel hopeless", is the key concept the hopelessness? Or that I *feel* that sense? (<<gotta bring it back to psychology, right?)
Again, thank you. Reading your compliment really will provide some psychological sustanance for me, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:08:33
In reply to Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » antigua, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 11:20:58
Thank you so much for that great idea. My "all or nothing" thinking had blocked me from thinking of any resolution.
I'll have to think about whether it would be worse to know what he wrote or not to ever know. Maybe I'll ask my T. Right now I feel he would corroborate my shame and humiliation. If I were stronger, though....
Now that I think about, in some ways it doesn't matter what he wrote. I thought he "got" me but he clearly didn't, and from some research I've done I think this has a lot more to do w/him than me. But he wouldn't be above placing the blame on me, and then I'm back to defending myself and being denied what I know to be the truth (as I was denied as a girl).
But thanks for the idea. I'll think about it some more. You gave me a sliver of hope!
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:18:05
In reply to Re: For Susan (very long), posted by Susan47 on July 29, 2004, at 11:01:35
Well, on to the next part. (I feel like I'm writing a bad made-for-tv movie).
I did write to him. I poured out my heart, how this was repeating my childhood trauma, yada, yada, yada, and asking why? My T called him repeatedly (she thinks his behavior was reprehensible and she confirmed that he clearly wanted to have nothing to do with me, which increased my shame. I'm sure she's right, though).
The response? Passive-aggressiveness all the way. We all played telephone tag for a few months and NEVER connected. I would return his empty call and he always called me back to leave a message. He never initiated a call, it was only to return mine AND NEVER TO ACTUALLY SPEAK TO ME. I swear, this guy must have known my daily schedule he was so accurate at missing me. I finally felt that I had been humilated enough. I wasn't going to beg anymore.
So nothing's resolved, except I felt like more of a fool for my violent reaction. It was an accurate reaction to my situation, but he waited me out and won.
anything else?
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:27:18
In reply to Thank you » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 12:10:49
Racer, you are a WONDERFUL writer and I should know. I'm an expert!:) I write, edit and teach writing and you would be horrified at how bad most people are at this skill. It's really interesting that so many babblers write well. I think there's a definite connection between the issues we are dealing with and our need to communicate them outward.
I never knew I wrote well until a college professor told me. Never entered my mind, although I've always enjoyed writing. I had zero self confidence. Now it's too hard if I'm writing for myself. It's too personal and there's something about putting it down on paper that makes it real. I don't keep a journal anymore, but I am working on a couple of pieces where I take the feelings and emotions that I need to express and put them outside of myself.
OK, now I'm nervous. You will scrutinize everything with a fine red pen...
best,
antigua
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 13:54:07
In reply to Re: Thank you » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:27:18
Antigua, I've heard the story before but it still touches me. It makes me so sad that a helping professional could be so completely bad. Maybe it is a new reality show: When Therapists go bad..
I keep thinking maybe he, or his agency, got sanctioned and were no longer allowed to work with csa patients. I know someone on the BOD lost their therapist when this happened. I guess I want to believe there is a reason this man acted so badly. (and yes, that is totally left over from childhood...there MUST be a rational explanation to everything).
I love the way you write and I agree that Babblers all pretty much write well. It makes reading such a pleasure, even when the stories are painful.
Thank you for sharing. I think you are very brave.
D
Posted by AuntieMel on July 29, 2004, at 14:22:35
In reply to Re: For Susan (very long) » Susan47, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:18:05
This guy is a couple of crayons shy of a box isn't he? Sounds like the wrong person getting paid for those sessions.
Remember, those are *your* files and you have a right to see them. Racer's idea of your therapist getting your file is a good one. You'll have to sign a release, and off goes the request. I don't think he's allowed to refuse another professional.
It's bound to help to get some closure on it. His behaviour was unprofessional to say the least. And he should be reported for that plus anything wrong he's put in your file (tho that's a he said/she said). Think of it as saving the next victim.
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 15:00:19
In reply to Re: your files » antigua, posted by AuntieMel on July 29, 2004, at 14:22:35
"Think of it as saving the next victim."
That's very hard to resist. I wish someone had saved me, but I guess I find myself now in a place where I could help someone else.
thanks,
antigua
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 15:35:36
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:08:33
OK, I researched this as it applies in California -- since that's where I live -- and here's a brief summary of how it works here:
Patients over 18 have a legal right to access their medical records, with a few exceptions. First, a doctor can choose to summarize the records for a patient. Kinda takes the teeth out right there, doesn't it? Second, mental health records can be withheld if the clinician deems it to be in the patient's best interest, but still has to present the rationale behind that decision.
If mental health records are withheld from the patient, another clinician can still access those records on the patient's behalf. The requesting clinician is prohibited from providing access to the patient.
All that makes a certain amount of sense, since there really are a lot of people whose mental health records could be very damaging to them. I don't think you're one of those people in a general sense, but I do think that, considering the history involved, I would not encourage you to read those records yourself. That isn't what I was advocating when I made that suggestion.
What I wanted to suggest, though, still makes sense to me: if your therapist -- someone who has a personal distance from the situation -- could read this animatronic ape's records of your treatment, she might be able to help you gain insight into the situation and your reaction to it in the course of therapy. THAT I think would be a great outcome. If you live in a state with similar laws regarding medical records, that's all that could happen, legally, if she requested your files. You would be legally prohibited from seeing those files yourself. While there's an argument to be made that that limits your rights and liberties, it's for your own protection -- and in this case I think it really would protect you.
As for what might have happened, I think I'm reacting the way Daisy did: I'm trying to think of reasons for that sort of behavior on the part of a mental health professional. Now, I admit to a strong bias in my thinking: I've read your posts long enough to have formed an opinion of you, and the opinion I have formed is influencing my speculations on the situation.
I don't think you're delusional, so I can't imagine that you've totally misinterpreted the situation, nor do I think you're misrepresenting it here. I know you suffer depression and have a history of csa, so I think your interpretation probably focusses on the negative aspects. I know how I react to this sort of stress, so I'm extrapolating from that -- and I suspect that you've probably reacted to the situation, rather than responding to it, if you know what I mean? (That's what I do, anyway...)
And I don't think you're a malformed monster made up of psychopathological goop -- I think you are probably a lot like me, as I see myself. Smart, with skills, articulate, insecure, with a mix of good and bad traits, and with a core of self-confidence that can be very, very hard to access -- especially when faced with interpersonal stressors.
With all that, the only explanations I can come up with are all some variation on his total inability to identify the antigua we all know and respect; or something that's mostly unrelated to you; or he's someone who should be in intensive, court-ordered therapy himself to work on his pathological difficulty in dealing with women.
Hm.... I don't see anything in there that supports your thesis that you're the problem here...
Come to think of it, I don't see anything in your posts that makes me think you really believe you're the problem, either. I just see a lot of reaction to having been *told* so many times that you're the problem. (Yeah, OK: that's projection, too, since that's part of my own struggle. I was told that I was the problem, even when I didn't believe it. Since the only way to survive was to *pretend* that I believed it, I did internalize it to some degree. Maybe that's entirely off base with you, but you know that answer better than anyone else, and as long as you know, no one else has to.)
One last thing: thank you. I actually do know something about the quality of writing out there, and it saddens and angers me. The thought that a writing teacher approves of mine means a lot to me.
And I never read anyone's personal correspondence or posts on this board with any sort of mental red pencil. I'm so sensitive myself that I only offer criticism when asked, and I always try to emphasize the positive when I do. I believe that the purpose of language is to communicate, so if I feel that I understand what you're trying to express, I consider that a successful post. I do fall into the "Gotcha Grammarian" habits from time to time, but generally only when listening to politicians and political pundits :-D
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » antigua, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 15:35:36
Have you read "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?
antigua
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 21:07:42
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
I'm reading "Going Nucular" right now!
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 1:10:17
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
I'm loving it.
By the way, to bring this back in line with the purpose of this board, I'm going to tell you part of my reaction to this book.
That Therapist From The Black Lagoon experience shook my foundation to the core. I started doubting a lot of what I thought were my greatest strengths, because she kept attacking exactly those qualities. Now, I think I'm at least as smart as the average bear, and I think that I have a certain amount of self-awareness -- including a high degree of considered awareness of my worst points. And I have a pretty well developed ability to step outside myself to see how something might look to observers. I can see how some of what I consider my strengths might be misinterpreted as pathological posturing. (For instance, a few months ago, in the midst of a crisis period, I was invited to submit a paper to a conference totally unrelated to anything I really know much about -- it was a peer reviewed science conference. I can see how that would sound very unlikely to a therapist who doesn't know me, hasn't bothered to try to know me, and only knows that I am not a scientist. Well, what I didn't mention about it does explain a lot: it was a very small conference, the focus was on informal education of adolescents, and the head of the thing is one of my oldest and most treasured friends. Of course he'd invite me to submit something -- he knew how my interests would complement the purpose of the conference, he likes me and knew that I'd take it as a compliment, and he knew that I was very seriously depressed -- he probably hoped that the invitation would buoy me up a bit. From her point of view, though, it might not be terribly surprising to have her attribute it to self-aggrandizement and grandiosity -- and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That argument could be made -- it would be wrong, and it would be skirting the edge of incompetence to form those conclusions without further supporting evidence, but the argument could be made.) At any rate, those responses from her really shook my foundations, because I do internalize them, and they do fuel my self-doubts, and they do mirror a lot of my own, internal self-criticisms.
In other words, I was not in great shape after that experience.
And the next therapist sure as [that place our ex-therapists might someday visit] didn't help matters any.
Slowly, though, I'm starting to even out again. I'm starting to trust some of my ideas more, although it's still pretty much limited to ideas, and I still have that whole intuitive/analytic thing going on. Many of the essays in Nunberg's book concern things that I have noticed and intuitively grasped, but been unable to explain or express. Reading such a compelling and engaging writer point out what I've been seeing, and then explain what I've felt but been unable to express, has been a very therapeutic experience for me. It's helping me build that confidence back up.
(OK, I want a lollipop for getting this from books about language to psychotherapy. And I want a red one!)
Posted by antigua on July 30, 2004, at 9:32:18
In reply to Oh, and... » antigua, posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 1:10:17
How about TWO red lollipops, one for you and one for me. We could enjoy them together and share GOOD therapy stories.
antigua
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