![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
I am in a strange space these days. I slide into really deep depressions for a short time (last night I HAD to lie down - couldn't sleep, but couldn't move either; Saturday was a day when I was so completely overwhelmed that I didn't want to see my kids or anyone else (even my daughter who leaves for a semester in France on Friday) - all I could do was watch some movies). The rest of the time, I'm just my normally severely depressed self.
I got really angry at my therapist on Monday. We were talking about how I talk to you guys about my therapy, and I have email/IM conversations about therapy, too. He has never seemed too keen about online stuff, so I don't mention it a lot, and I don't think he knew how much I talk about the therapy. He finally said "So, you need therapy to survive your therapy?" - and I agreed, I do. And he asked if I needed therapy to survive the friendships that allow me to survive therapy, and I said yes to that too - sometimes.
His first concern was that I would "dilute" what went on in our sessions by talking about it outside of sessions. He suggested (though didn't accuse me) that things were being said about therapy that he didn't hear about (because they were said with my friends, instead of with him). I told him that therapy patients often don't tell their therapists everything, but that I thought that I was more open and honest than most. He said "You think my patients don't tell me everything???" He was shocked that I would say "yes" to that. I really think he should read Babble. I wouldn't mind if he did - I'm honestly not trying to hide anything. But I don't think he would take the time to do it.
Anyway, so he found it "interesting" that I regularly talk about therapy. He uses the word "interesting" because once he used the word "strange" instead and I interpreted that he wasn't pleased with what I was doing. I started to get defensive because I really think I wouldn't make it through therapy if I didn't talk about it between sessions. He said that he wasn't going to tell me that what I'm doing is "wrong" - it is "his role to *comment* on what is said in the session, not to tell me what to do or not to do". But it seems pretty clear to me that he's not happy with what I'm doing. I would be willing to try something different, if he thinks that it would help. But I can't figure out what I should be doing differently.
He wants me to tell him everything. OK, well, he's going to have to be my shadow. 2 50 minute sessions a week isn't enough time to tell everything. I have to decide what is important and talk about that. But then he doesn't like the way I prioritize things. My old therapist would read my journalling - that gave me the chance to tell her things that wouldn't fit into the session. Now I do that with you guys (somehow I prefer to have some feedback from SOME person on my journalling). He won't read my journalling (or he said that he wouldn't promise to read it, and asked how I would feel if I gave him something and he didn't read it?). So I figure that talking with friends will fill that void, but now he doesn't want me to do that.
My old therapist was really big on getting a support network together (which I have). But it seems like my new guy doesn't want me to use it. I'm confused.
When I started getting defensive (I need to talk to someone, he's not available all the time, so what does he want me to do?) he said that he just wanted me to be "curious" about why I do it this way. *I* know why I do it this way. I don't know how everybody else does it.
So this leads me to getting angry that he doesn't like what I'm doing (and he won't even tell me that he doesn't like it... but if he did like it we wouldn't be talking about it, so that sort of proves that he doesn't like it), but he won't tell me what to do instead. I can handle being "wrong" if I know how to correct it. I really hate being "wrong" when I have no idea what I should be doing to be "right".
Do they really expect us to believe that they don't think things we do are "right" or "wrong"? We don't spend time on the "right" things. So, if he keeps asking about something, am I incorrect to assume that this something has to be "wrong"? Why won't they tell us what do to - when they know what they want us to do? They DO tell us what to do - their job is to manipulate us into doing the "better" thing. If I don't know what I'm supposed to do, why won't he tell me?
It's like a cruel guessing game, where there IS no right answer.
I know that thinking he is mad at me when he isn't is one of my transference issues. And there is probably some of that mixed in here. But I KNOW he's not happy about me talking about therapy (or needing therapy for therapy) - because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it. My issue is that I don't know what to do instead.
I'm sorry if this is really disjointed, but that is where my brain is these days.
I could use some help...
Posted by EmmyS on January 14, 2004, at 11:30:13
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
My two cents
First cent: The support you get here is primarily no different than the support you'd get from your pals sitting around a table sipping coffee together. He may be Internet phobic and just not "get" that concept. I'm sure he wouldn't say you should not have supportive in-real-life friends! Heck, girlfriends have compared therapists since Freud ("Did you see his ascot today?? Eeeewww!!!!".)
Second cent: Perhaps he is concerned that the few folks here who have backgrounds as therapists will interfere with his work. From what I have seen those people are very careful not to do that. They explain concepts, offer information, and offer the same support which others here offer. I've never seen professionals here interfere with a therapist's work - unless it was to hint about actions which appeared obviously unethical to all of us - thankfully, that's been pretty rare.
Emmy
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 11:36:45
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
Oh dear...I only have a moment as I MUST get back to work, but wanted to comment briefly, if I can gather my thoughts...
You have every right to be angry about this, falls. At least in my opinion. Who is he to tell you to not talk about therapy outside of therapy? And you are exactly right in telling him honestly that patients don't tell their therapists everything - and if he thinks otherwise then he is being quite naive. I mean, really, as you said, even if we wanted to, sometimes it's just not pertinent to the matter at hand, and most of the time there's just not enough time, even if you're in therapy twice a week like we are! What does he expect?
As for what you discuss outside of therapy and with who (or is that whom? I can never remember - sorry!), that is your business. If it was truly harming your therapy, then perhaps I could see him recommending (which he didn't even do, right?) that you reconsider what you choose to share with others outside of therapy about therapy. But as long as you're getting positive support, I don't see how he can be bothered by that. Both of my Ts have been glad that I had babble and online friends, as they know from my telling them that I've had a hard time find anyone in my face-to-face dealings with people who truly understands how I feel as well as the babblers. I know you have some close face-to-face friends who also support you in your dealings with depression, and for that you are extremely lucky, and I think whatever you say to them, or to us on babble, or whoever you want to say something to about therapy - that's your right, just as it's your right to not share whatever you don't feel comfortable sharing.
For me, I get a great deal of good constructive feedback on therapy issues when I share things with folks who understand, and it helps the therapy along. There are people I have learned to not discuss therapy things with, and then there are people I can discuss therapy things with, and for that I am most grateful! I don't know what I would do sometimes without babble and some of my other online friends who 'get it.'
Anyway, as I said, I really need to get back to work, but I wanted to let you know my thoughts on this - don't know how helpful it will be, but I do think you have a right to be angry about it, and I'm sorry you're having such a rough time right now. I wish I could do more.
Take care.
((((Fallsfall))))
P
Posted by Poet on January 14, 2004, at 11:53:07
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
Fallsfall,
> "You think my patients don't tell me everything???" He was shocked that I would say "yes" to that. I really think he should read Babble. I wouldn't mind if he did - I'm honestly not trying to hide anything. But I don't think he would take the time to do it.
He really believes his patients tell him everything? He needs to make the time to read Babble. Talking about therapy with others who understand the patients side of it is beneficial. It doesn't dilute therapy, it strengthens it.
I'd love to know your therapist's opinion on alcoholics anonymous.
Poet
Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 14:27:11
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
Fallsfall -- I've written your therapist a letter. This strikes a huge nerve with me...
Dear Mr. Fallsfall's Therapist:
I'd like to try to explain why therapy clients need support for therapy, above and beyond the issues they are dealing with in their therapy.
1) The process is confusing and socially very different than anything else most of us have ever been exposed to. And there is very little instruction as to how to "conduct" yourself, other than you can say anything you want here. But, I'm not going to tell you I have a hangnail, or that I need new shoes, etc. because that is not what we are working together. It helps to talk to others who are going to therapy because you can say things like, "isn't it hard to get started?" etc. Or, what do you do when...? It is gathering information about the process, not the issues. Many of us read tons so that we can "do it right." Or figure out if you are doing it right. After all, you trained for years on how to do this, we didn't. Do we feel vulnerable? You bet. When you find a group that can offer advice, experience and support, you consider yourself lucky.
2) Emotionally it is about the hardest thing I've ever done. Think about it from "our" side -- we come in, let you rip off those protective scabs and expose wounds that run very deep...sometimes deep into places we don't even know have been effected. Then, when time is up, you don't stitch us back up, you just tell us to try not to bleed to death before the next session. Our friends supply the salve, bandaids, chocolate and whatever else we might need to patch and repair. This IS part of healing. Again, it is about the process most of the time, how painful it is, etc. It isn't that help is necessarily needed on an issue, though we might need validation on those too. After all we can't/shouldn't call you everyday to say, "I feel sad/lonely/depressed" Besides, sometimes we want to hear, "I'm sorry. It will get better. I'm thinking about you." Not, "WHY do you think you are sad, ect.?"
3) It takes courage to be honest with you and sorting out stuff with friends first can often create some strength to bring up scary issues. Again, maybe it isn't sharing the specific issue with friends but telling them you have one that is hard to talk about and hearing them say, "just tell him. That is why you are seeing him!" Babble is so great for that and for normalizing this process.
4)If an issues is big enough to have created the need for therapy, is it really realistic to think that it only needs attention 100 minutes a week? Most therapy clients know that they actually need to work on their "stuff" outside of sessions. Most do their processing with others. This is so much healthier than keeping it all locked inside. People who have noone hurt themselves, or worse.
5) I agree that having "healthy" friends to support you is ideal. But, most of them have not had therapy experiences so can't relate. Or they want to solve your problems, not listen. Or they want you to be OK so badly that you quickly realize you need to talk to people who think therapy is OK. It has been my experience that people are supportive but they really don't know what to say, nor do I want to share with those who haven't been there.
6) Finally, it sounds like you have a concern about therapy "being" life, being THE important element of existance, instead of using therapy to better live your life. I agree that many of us get caught up in this process, and for the time being, it does become central to our days or weeks. However, I must argue that ideally as we feel stronger and better able to cope with life, therapy will become "just" a tool for living and for changing into who we want to be. When therapy is terminated, and I assume it is your expectation that it will indeed end, who would you expect will offer support, etc.? I submit that Babble, and other groups like it, enhance the theraputic process for clients and you should be *glad* we have them.
Respectfully submitted,
Daisy
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:43:42
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and (long) » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 14:27:11
Fallsfall,
Maybe he gets the idea that the support you get here isn't what it truly is. I have seen a lot of net support sites that aren't monitored and it's basically just a b***** session. Maybe he thinks that's all this is? There are also support groups similar to that, where there isn't a therapist and it just turns into a full-out pity-party time thing. Maybe he's just confused as to what this site has to offer and what really goes on here. I've read about group sessions without therapists that are very unhealthy (not that I'm trying to point fingers or anything, please don't get me wrong, I just think they are discouraged) due to the fact that there is no direction and it just turns into people feeling more depressed and alienated because they end up not moving forward.I think what you should do is give him a more realistic view of this support system. Bring in posts if you have to. Let him know that this is supportive, not a place to make people feel more depressed and segregated. Try to inform him. It just seems that he's ignorant, which isn't a put down.
I'm sorry that your therapy appointment didn't go well. You know that this site helps you. And if he doesn't agree, too bad for him. You have to do what makes you feel better. Follow your heart and your head. We love you here and wnat you to stick around for a long time. You've helped me out SO much! Thank you for that!
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 14:53:26
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and (long) » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 14:27:11
Posted by badhaircut on January 14, 2004, at 15:58:13
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
This could possibly be a great opportunity in your therapy. You and he could talk about how it feels (for both of you) when you choose to do something that an important person in your life thinks is a bad idea. What 'transference' issues would come up in telling Mr. Therapist, respectfully, that you disagree with him about the value of your online connections? If it's true (and it sounds like it is), you could say that you don't see much point in exploring the online issue further, even if he does. How would *he* feel then? Can either of you live with that? Does he respect your judgment enough to let that happen?
Is it even possible to continue effectively in therapy with Mr. T if you don't explore this right/wrong thing?
For the record, in your posts here, you seem like a thoughtful, honest, and sensible mind. In this encounter, your therapist sounds insecure, controlling, and self-deluded. But lots of people are like that, at least sometimes. That's why I think it could be a great opportunity.
-bhc
Posted by lookdownfish on January 14, 2004, at 16:48:23
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
I had a discussion with my therapist about getting involved in online message boards and she was also very against it. I think she was afraid there are a lot of bad therapists out there and that a lot of the advice would be rubbish. I got quite offended at this, and said don't you think I am astute enough to tell the difference. And we haven't really talked about it since. I think part of this attitude is simply because the therapist feels excluded and that the therapy could be (partially) supplanted by the online support group.
But, what your therapist said about it diluting what goes on in therapy does kind of ring true with me as well. Maybe by discussing things here on the board, we dissipate the feelings that we are having, so by the next session, the feelings are less intense and we have actually taken a step back where we were progressing. Hmmm, now I don't know what I think.
Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 18:53:38
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My! » fallsfall, posted by lookdownfish on January 14, 2004, at 16:48:23
Don't you think that dissipating some of the emotion allows you to then "think" about what triggered the intense emotion. If I remained as intense as I feel sometimes after sessions, I would explode!
I know what you are saying, but the progress could be hindered as well as helped by the intense emotion.
Just my thoughts.
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:05:19
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
I read about the concept that you shouldn't talk about therapy outside of therapy in the really old books, or really strictly psychoanalytic books. But I guess those people were going four times a week. :) If they talked about it outside therapy they wouldn't have a life.
Maybe your therapist is just old fashioned.
I think it could stand a lot more talking. You explaining where you're coming from, you insisting that he explains where he's coming from.
But whatever happens, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! :)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:03:49
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and (long) » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 14:27:11
Daisy,
I loved your letter to fallsfalls' T. It really explained in a very clear manner what clients go through. I was wondering if you would mind if I printed it out and shared it with my colleagues who are also clinical psychology trainees. I believe it would be invaluable, especially for those who have not been through their own therapy experience.Please let me know. If you are not comfortable with this, I will not share it.
g
Posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:10:24
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My! » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:05:19
My own two cents is this: Perhaps your T feels insecure, that you might learn something that suggests he is not as effective as he wishes to be?? Or that you are using this site to just complain, which he would rather hear from you and process?? But that is not what mainly happens here, so I think his response is due to his own *stuff*. I find this site to be incredibly supportive, and I'm a newbie!
From the other chair, as a T trainee, I have to admit, I would be anxious about what my client was saying about me outside of therapy. I would be worried that they are quite dissatisfied or thought I was wasting their time, and I would really like to hear that from them if that is true. That way, I can do something to better meet their needs. So in my case, I am definitely insecure at times when I think about my clients' reactions they might not be sharing with me.
I guess my thoughts are very colored by my dual status, and my own *stuff* Oh well, can't help that! :)
g
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 20:20:03
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:10:24
My memory is so bad. My therapist did get really really mad at me once about talking outside therapy about therapy. I came in all upset about being too dependent on him, and that it was dangerous. And part of it did come from conversations with other people, and maybe I did tell them a bit more than I was willing to tell him about just how dependent I was (that whole plan thing). He got pretty mad at thinking that I was letting someone interfere with our relationship and make me feel like I needed to back off and become less dependent. When I got upset that he was mad, and promised never to talk about it again, he calmed down, and told me never to feel like I couldn't talk about our therapy. Just not to let other people convince me that what I was feeling was unhealthy without talking to him about it. He thought that was therapy interfering behavior on my part.
He also gets upset at the reading I do, but only when it makes me feel ashamed about something.
Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 22:29:56
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and (long) » DaisyM, posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:03:49
Absolutely -- please share if you think you can make it useful it as a learning tool, no matter how they take it.
Part of my job is training professionals how to work with special needs children and their parents, so teaching tools are near and dear to my heart. Feel free to add and/or delete as well.
The part I forgot to address was the right/wrong aspect but I think Fallsfall did that pretty well herself when she wondered if he disapproves, then what would he suggest.
BTW -- My Therapist told me he has been in practice for nearly 25 years. I've noticed that he is as interested in supporting me through the process as he is in my specific issues. He addresses negative feelings about therapy immediately and head on. He offers extra support, not that I don't fight with myself about that. Only once have I felt left high and dry and we did address that in the next session and work out the misunderstanding. I guess what I'm saying is that it seems to me, and I've only had one Therapist, that his experience must be that the support of the Therapist is as important as the therapy itself. Does that make sense?
Posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 23:09:22
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and (long), posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 22:29:56
That is such a good feeling. To know that I'm not the only one. To know that I'm not completely alien. To know that I'm not 17 miles to the left of left field.
You guys are so special.
I am very tempted to bring all of your posts into my session tomorrow and read them all. I will tell him where this site is, and if he wants to know what is going on, he can come here and see. I don't have anything to hide from him.
My session isn't until 3PM. I hope that I'm not completely wiped out by then - I'm so tired these days. It will be a hard choice if I have to choose between helping my daughter pack for her semester in France and taking a nap so I can fight with my therapist.
Thank you all so much for your support. I'll read it again in the morning - and hope I can get a little more comprehension out of it... Bedtime now.
Thanks.
Posted by All Done on January 14, 2004, at 23:23:53
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
Fallsfall,
Gosh, I don't know what I would do if I didn't talk about my therapy outside of my sessions. I have a really great friend that I talk to about it. She's never been through therapy, but it seems the more I talk to her, the more she is understanding it and me. I think it's actually improving our friendship. Since she is the only one IRL that I talk to, though, I was thrilled to find these boards! Even if I haven't done too much talking, yet, it has been a great source of information for me. I can take what I need and if I've read something that confuses me or makes me question my therapy, I bring it up with my therapist and let him clarify. I feel bad that your therapist has probably now made it difficult for you to talk about anything you read here. He should have done just the opposite and welcomed the opportunities for discussion.
I suggest that you just continue to do what you feel comfortable with and what works for you. You need to take care of yourself and get support wherever you can find it.
Take care,
All Done
Posted by fallsfall on January 15, 2004, at 21:44:04
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My! » fallsfall, posted by All Done on January 14, 2004, at 23:23:53
It was not a good session.
He did explain why talking to other people can be a problem. Say you have a couple, and the woman is in therapy. One day she comes home and starts talking in a way the guy has never heard her talk before. He is confused - is this her talking, or is she just saying what her therapist said?
So if I talk to people about things we are talking about in therapy and then go back and talk to him, using some ideas that I got from Babble, I could sound inconsistent to him (am I who I sounded like before, or am I who I sound like now?). That makes it hard for him to help me because I'm more of a moving target.
I see the point he was trying to make - but none of us live in a vacuum... I'm not sure if I agree with him or not. He would see the same issue if I was talking to local people - it is not an internet issue.
It was a long session, and we talked about more than just what I explain above, but by the end I was convinced that I was wrong and bad. Even though he told me "You are not wrong or bad", it didn't matter. I was not happy when I left.
I sat in my (cold, cold) car (with the heater on) for 45 minutes, got some movies and went home. Very soon after I got home the phone was for me. It was my therapist. He knew that I was upset and he wanted to talk for a minute. He reminded me that I'm not wrong or bad. He told me I could call him tomorrow if I needed to. He had called an hour earlier and left a message with my daughter for me to call him (but I really hadn't been home long enough to get the message).
Then I sneezed 20 times and have a whopper cold going. I don't know if my brain is foggy from the session or from my brand new cold.
It was sweet of him to call (twice!).
Posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 23:21:21
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 15, 2004, at 21:44:04
Sounds like a rough one, but maybe productive. You obviously let him know how you felt and he obviously heard you and was concerned. This is important, even if you both continue to disagree. I'm glad he called you. How do you feel about him right now?
I agree. We don't live in a vacuum. We are all moving targets. That is why we all strive to learn our "triggers". If I have a fight with my husband, I'm a different person the next morning than if I found out I secured a huge grant. Consider this: you talk in therapy about something you would like to change. You and he brainstorm, come up with a plan. You put that plan into action. It works, or it doesn't...but still you are not the same you before this experience.
I get what he is saying. But, I disagree that you can't sort out your own opinions to bring to therapy.
I still think it is great that he called you. I hope you will call him if you need him.
We're here for you too...
Posted by mair on January 16, 2004, at 9:34:32
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 15, 2004, at 21:44:04
I only just picked up on this thread.
I went through something similar with my therapist a couple of years ago. One of her concerns about my PB participation was that I had a real tendency to want to fully process things before I'd talk about them. So by the time I got together with her, I'd have already gone through a filtering process. Either I had no reason anymore to talk to her about something upsetting, or I had fully distilled a complicated issue down to something far simpler.
This may have been true to an extent but I thought on balance the benefits far outweighed the detriments. For one thing, at least for me, talking about stuff here gave me the courage to talk to her about them. Also people here might have an entirely different perspective which would get me thinking about things more deeply. Also, I didn't (and still don't) feel comfortable talking about therapy issues with my non-cyber friends. If we need to feel less isolated, reaching out to other posters is an important source of support.
I think alot of it with my therapist was that she didn't use the internet herself. I think she just assumed that any exchanges were pretty shallow. I think I convinced her that internet relationships can be very real. We periodically revisit my participation here usually when I'm most upset about something happening with another poster. If I am raising an idea or observation that came from someone here, I usually tell her that - this is something I just do automatically, and not at all deliberately.
Stick to your guns. These people can't always be right about things with which they're not really familiar. Depression is isolating enough; you don't need therapy to isolate you further.
Mair
Posted by badhaircut on January 16, 2004, at 10:41:05
In reply to Re: Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 15, 2004, at 21:44:04
I agree that it is nice that he called you. But that certainly doesn't mean he wasn't being a bully before.
There's a serious list of warning signs that your new date may be a narcissistic psychopath. One of the first signs is that they want you to give up your other friends!!
Not saying he's a psychopath. :o) Just suggesting that he seems rather unreasonably controlling on the issue of your online life.
It's too bad you felt wrong or bad about this.
In a world where educated, trained, licensed therapists throw cotton blankets over their clients' heads, and others go tapping clients' cheeks and foreheads, have clients primal-screaming at the top their lungs, make charts & graphs, do blood tests, and explore past lives, you can hardly be considered *wrong* for having a quite reasonable difference of opinion with your therapist.
-bhc
This is the end of the thread.
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