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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Karen44 on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:07
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by SFY on August 6, 2006, at 12:36:03
> Though I've exercised regularly for the past few years, I've never noticed anything specifically mood-elevating (i.e., an endorphin rush) from it. But I think it's one thing that helps raise the floor on my depression and keeps the lows manageable.
>
> Even a brisk walk can help as Dr. Ivan Goldberg points out in his tips on recovering from depression:
>
> http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.hints.htmlBefore there was such a thing as antidepressants, one of the things they noticed at Menninger's (and this goes back to the 20's even) is that exercise, working in a garden, going for walks helped patients who were depressed. When I was there in the early 1980's, I was profoundly depressed and did not want to get out of bed. I was on a variety of antidepressan medications until they found Parnate worked - dangerous as I was extremely suicidal at the time and tried to kill myself at times that I was not even aware of what I was doing. In any case, I was told that the best activities for me would be the volleyball activity (okay) and wood chopping - with a sledge hammer and wedge. I hated that activity, but it was so strenuous, it did work to some extent to get the endorphns going. I think in the long run it helped
Posted by Maximus on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:07
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on August 5, 2006, at 19:55:54
Wow! Thanks for that exhaustive list. Good work buddy.
In a not-offensive tone at all (<- is it in English?), i still wonder why you put so much energy to demonstrate the use of alternative treatments? Do you try to convince yourself of something?
"On paper" excercise is very amazing. Helas, that's different in practice. A much weaker effect on depression can be noticed.
But i do believe in sports for others reasons, spirit team, mainly. I force myself and my 2 sons to practice 2 differents sports during the year. I can observe a better concentration, memory and sleep.
Bye.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:08
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by bassman on August 5, 2006, at 17:54:48
> My experience has been the same as yours: when I've been very depressed, exercise is very tiring and doesn't seem to help-I just feel dizzy during and after. When the depression is milder, exercise works very well with medication-to the point that sometimes I feel "normal". But I've found it takes 1-2 hours exercise/day for there to be a really big effect. That's a big time committment-but worth it when it is working well.
One to two hours per day? Wow. I don't think I will ever be able to get to such an intense regimen.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:09
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 21:47:42
> Link I know you're to young to remember but when I was in my late 20's there was a doc who treated his patients while they ran. And they all improved. This was before the SSRI's.
>
> I ride my bike without gears daily 7.5-l2miles daily. If it wasn't for this I'd go crazy. I make it a point to go up steep hills. Going down feels great free like a bird. Oh yes it increses endorphins. Love Phillipa
7.5 to 12 miles daily?!! Damn! I must be much, much sicker than I ever imagined, cause I don't think I will ever be able to do that. When I was younger (early twenties) I loved biking, and went on long bike rides often, but then my mind started to malfunction, and as much as I hate to say it, the meds were the nail in the coffin. They just brought a crippling physical unhealthiness with them that has festered over the years. I am now a physical mess, but of course none of it show up in the tests at the doctor's office. I think I must be one of the statistical minority that performs very badly with these drugs.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Bob, posted by rod on August 5, 2006, at 21:58:42
> >.. on the infrequent occasions when I could, instead of making me feel better, I have some sort of strage rebound type effect that makes my problems significantly worse in the ensuing days, if not immediately. I've never been able to figure out why the counterintuitive effect occurs, seemingly contradicting a large body of evidence and advice I've come across over the years.
>
> Hi Bob!
>
> Well, the same happens to me! All docs etc. tell me to do some exercise, but even mild physical exercise makes me worse. I dont know why! My only guess is that exercise can lower blood pressure, and isnt blood pressure partly controlled by the catecholamines? So maybe it lowers the activity of some of them? just guessing..
>
> Do you sweat easily? I wondered about losing minerals via sweat.. dunno
> I sweat very easily.
>
> I am tapping in the dark here...
>
> anyway
>
> bye
I sweat like a pig and having breathing problems as well as muscle weakness on many psych meds. Off of them, all these things seem to lessen or go away, but then my mind collapses, and my body simply runs out of energy and motivation.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by wacky on August 6, 2006, at 9:13:33
> One way I know I'm getting into trouble (depression coming on) is that I lose interest in riding - which for me is not a hobby - but a passion. So, if I have a passion that I have difficulty forcing myself to do, it must require an enormous amount of willpower/effort to get a depressed person to start a new exercise program. Frankly, when I recall how hard it has been for me to ride, I don't see how someone without such a passion can do it at all.
>
> Now that I am on the upside of the depression (this one anyway), when I ride I get that eurphoric feeling that I haven't felt in a long time.
>
>
>
>I think this hits at the crux of the issue. I have always loved being active, particularly sports like biking, softball, volleyball, running, or just working out at the gym. My mental health and the drug side effects eventually took away all of that and I lament it greatly. If there were any way to be physically active on a regular basis, I certainly would, but it is virtually impossible.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by Crazy Horse on August 6, 2006, at 11:54:19
> I even notice when i exercise my meds work better. Exercise is just plain good for you..it's that simple. Especially when one has depressive/mental disorders. Endorphins and other "feel good" chemicals are released during and after exercise that have a positive effect on mood.
>
> The biggest problem i have w/exercise is when i go into see my pdoc feeling HORRIBLE/DEEPLY DEPRESSED and he asks me to exercise. Yea, like i Fu*kin' feel life exercising when i can barely get out of bed. Even though, i know this is when i need it the most!
>
> MJI can honestly say that my p-doc has never told me to exercise - I wonder if he knows something we don't. I have however had many friends and relati ves tell me to exercise, take vitamins, do accupuncture, or go on a special diet like absolutely no suger, or all vegetables. Then when I balk, I'm like the recalcitrant lazy patient who doesn't know if it would have helped 'cause I didn't try it. I know I'm a little defensive, but if there's one thing that bothers me, it's someone making a casual suggestion about a treatment that is often quite difficult to implement.
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Maximus on August 6, 2006, at 13:46:50
>In a not-offensive tone at all (<- is it in >English?), i still wonder why you put so much >energy to demonstrate the use of alternative >treatments? Do you try to convince yourself of >something?
Thats not really it at all. People tend to remember things that appeal to them. I enjoy exercising, and so when a particular abstract comes along detaling some research in the area, I tend to remember it.
>"On paper" excercise is very amazing. Helas, >that's different in practice. A much weaker >effect on depression can be noticed.That simply not true. There have been many studies that have demonstrated a significant antidepressant effect of exercising. This one, for instance, found exercise to be superior in the long run (no pun intended) to zoloft.
http://ebmh.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/4/4/105
Linkadge
Posted by Maximus on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:11
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Maximus, posted by linkadge on August 6, 2006, at 16:48:26
> Thats not really it at all. People tend to remember things that appeal to them. I enjoy exercising, and so when a particular abstract comes along detaling some research in the area, I tend to remember it.
Very good, indeeded. I sincerely wish that you continue your "program" if you're able to pursue it.
> That simply not true. There have been many studies that have demonstrated a significant antidepressant effect of exercising. This one, for instance, found exercise to be superior in the long run (no pun intended) to zoloft.
>Studies, studies, bah, i know this one by heart... You trust exercises more than Zoloft. That's correct, why not. But for the vast majority ,exercises bring only a small improvement. Period.
Now read it.
In spite my condition (sometimes very bad), i have been coaching both a hockey team and a Soccer team for over 20 years. Surprise? I have seen many many people in sports. They tend to trust me. So i have been aware of many intimate things. Exercise has never been sufficient/effective by itself to relieve depression. Never. In general, both drugs and sports are needed.
Now, that is the real world, not studies or utopic hope.
Bye.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:12
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » rod, posted by Bob on August 6, 2006, at 14:38:25
So there's where excercise comes in. As you graduaully decrease your meds start excercising. Don't over do it. I can't handle a day without riding. It also does to me what running does for Link I used to run too many injured discs now. How I long for the days of running . No greater high in the world after 30minutes minimum at which time you won't want to stop as you are in a rhytham. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:13
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Phillipa, posted by Bob on August 6, 2006, at 14:36:32
I am curious and you don't have to reveal of course but what is your age I am 60years old. Love Phillipa
Posted by noelle on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:13
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on August 5, 2006, at 19:55:54
In the last six months I have gone through some of the darkest moments of my life. know one seems to believe this but exercise made me worse, I became more agitated. I have gotten to a more tolerable depression and have been exercising for 3 months everyday. If a go a couple days my mood really falls. In this sense for me I had to get to a moderate level for it to help
Noelle
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:13
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Maximus on August 6, 2006, at 19:26:27
>In spite my condition (sometimes very bad), i >have been coaching both a hockey team and a >Soccer team for over 20 years. Surprise? I have >seen many many people in sports. They tend to >trust me. So i have been aware of many intimate >things. Exercise has never been >sufficient/effective by itself to relieve >depression. Never.
You don't know that for sure. For instance, populations that exercise have statistically lower rates of depression. So, who's to say that many more of these people wouldn't have gone on to develop depression had they not been exercising? Who's to say that those who did develop depression may have developed it earlier or to a greater degree had they not been exercising?
It was clear to us kids the day our mom stopped exercising that she plunged much deeper into depression. Now, you're right, the exercise alone may have been insufficiant at certain times, but thats not to say that it didn't have a substantial effect, we all could see that.
Unfortunately, a well designed study is the most effective tool to acurately asess wheather or not a treatment modality has an effect.
In general, both drugs and >sports are needed.
>Now, that is the real world, not studies or >utopic hope.Unfortunately, studies are the only way we can accurately and comparitivly assess a treatment vs. no treatment. I am not saying that exercise will obliterate depression 100% of the time (drugs can't do that either).
Another possability is that the psychosocial stress of a competetive sport is conteracting an antidepressant effect. I wouldn't necessarily recomend this type of exercise for depression, unless it was entirely noncompeititive.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:13
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by noelle on August 6, 2006, at 23:09:03
What type of exercising have you been doing? How is your weight? What type of depression do you have anxious/neurotic, or atypical overeating oversleeping etc?
Linkadge
Posted by wacky on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:14
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » noelle, posted by linkadge on August 7, 2006, at 2:09:42
I have to chime in one more time. The sweating caused by Effexor has been horrible for me - and I believe caused my heatstroke about a month ago while riding (horse) in a clinic. The temp was hot - around 98. However, I have been very heat tolerant my entire life which is why I was scheduled to ride in the heat to give other's the cooler morning rides. I was shaking so hard, was white as a ghost, and they took me to a swimming pool where I shivered for about an hour complaining I was cold. Since then, I've been very careful to monitor my sweating and lack of heat regulation.
One other comment about competitive sports - I tend to disagree that they are bad or should be avoided. For me, at least, it increases the motivation to get out and practice. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am a competitive dressage rider. When I have a horse show looming, I am much more likely to force myself to ride and then I feel better - just knowing I did it. If nothing is coming up, I come up with all the excuses in the book why I don't need to. And so the cycle continues.
Just my thoughts.
Posted by nickguy on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:16
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by noelle on August 6, 2006, at 23:09:03
running on the treadmill for me feels good, while I'm doing it, and gives me more energy and makes it easier to wake up in the morning. LIfting weights makes me feel good that I'm building a better shape and getting stronger. All these factors make me feel bettter, but it's certainly no cure. It's a great coping skill though. Going to the gym is a hobby for me.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:16
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Bob, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 19:36:45
> I am curious and you don't have to reveal of course but what is your age I am 60years old. Love Phillipa
I'm only 38.
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:17
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Bob, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 19:36:45
> I am curious and you don't have to reveal of course but what is your age I am 60years old. Love Phillipa
Phillipa, I have to say that the level of activity you engage in is quite impressive for your age. I know all kinds of people half your age and much less that don't do any sort of strenuous physical activity whatsoever.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:17
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Phillipa, posted by Bob on August 7, 2006, at 11:53:11
Bob lucky you!!!!!Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:19
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Phillipa, posted by Bob on August 7, 2006, at 12:00:20
Bob its the only thing that gives me any worth about myself. I have nothing to do as I had to give up nursing my identity. The only time I feel half-way good about myself if when people say things about me like you did thanks, Love Phillipa
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:20
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on August 7, 2006, at 2:05:56
I think there are two basic reasons why exercise has not been a real big benefit to me.
First: I have other problems that are not helped by physical activity, such as obsessive ruminations, anger, and severe anxiety/panic episodes. Although exercise could at times make me feel physically better and slightly more energetic, it didn't address these other issues.
Second: The physical effects of the meds over the years gradually took away my ability to be physically active, what with significant weight gain, muscle weakness, fatigue, sweating and flushing, muscle tension, and an eventual lack of motivation or desire from the SSRIs in particular.
Trust me when I say that before all this I cherished my ability to participate in sports and all physical activities. I was very, very sorry to see it deteriorate away over the years, and then hear those around me say that it was no wonder I am having problems since I'm not physically active. I never thought I'd be the one sitting in the couch.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:20
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Phillipa, posted by Bob on August 7, 2006, at 12:00:20
Bob is I had your e-mail address I'd send you a pic of me. I usally do it through babblemail but you light isn't on . Exchanging addressing. If you chose to go to the registration page and click on yes to babblemail then you name in your posts will be blue and not black. You click on the blue. And babblemail mail appears. See mine is blue. Click on and you can send on to me. Love Phillipa
Posted by Bob on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:21
In reply to Re: forgot a few items » Bob, posted by Phillipa on August 7, 2006, at 12:06:13
> Bob its the only thing that gives me any worth about myself. I have nothing to do as I had to give up nursing my identity. The only time I feel half-way good about myself if when people say things about me like you did thanks, Love Phillipa
Phillipa:
I know what you mean about losing your identity. I am now on disability and no longer have a career. Even though I didn't love my work, I didn't have an adequate sense of how important it was to a sense of self for me. My therapists and loved ones tell me that all that doesn't matter because I'm a "nice guy" and people have a self-worth apart from all that. Agreed, but it's hard to console oneself with that, since to me it seems somewhat abstract.
Posted by noelle on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:21
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » noelle, posted by linkadge on August 7, 2006, at 2:09:42
Hi there,
I do cardio 4-5 days a week and weights 3 times a week. Over the past two years I have gain about 15 pounds, I'm about 15-20 pounds overweight. I'm on (200)lamictal, lithium(1200, risperdal, and effexor and haven't gained any weight yet, but I can't lose any despite working out like crazy. I have always had dysthimia, major depression but because of my cycling was diagnosed with bipolar depression 11. I have obsessive thoughts severe generalized anxiety, and yes I have a binge and restrict pattern. The meds have brought me halfway out of hell as of the last couple months as well as the exercise I believe.
thats probably way more information then you need
Thanks
Noelle
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 11:07:21
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by nickguy on August 7, 2006, at 11:31:48
>All these factors make me feel bettter, but >it's certainly no cure.
To be fair, antidepressants are no cure either.
Linkadge
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