![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 44 to 68 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 16:04:00
In reply to Lou's reply-phoudtnovjudsm » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 15:05:43
Do you think science then is sorcery, Lou?
Why didn't I think of that?
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 20:53:20
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-phoudtnovjudsm » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 15:52:19
> You don't need to provide commentary on the words found in the bible that you think support your contentions. You only need to cite them as I have done previously as per your request. If you would like to suggest to others that the bible consigns people who take Prozac to a fiery hell, don't you think you should support your contentions with the proof you say is contained in the words of the bible by simply producing them? If not, that's ok.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...need to cite them...]
Let us look at Galatians 5 verses 19-21.
One of the things in the list is {witchcraft}. Sorcery is a subset of witchcraft.
Now let us look at Revelation 9, verse 21. Since they did not repent, then go to rev 21:8 and rev 22 verse 15.
But those are only a small part of verses of the whole aspect of mind-altering drugs that the bible talks about.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2010, at 21:07:36
In reply to Lou's reply-hamroutawrning » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 20:53:20
> > You don't need to provide commentary on the words found in the bible that you think support your contentions. You only need to cite them as I have done previously as per your request. If you would like to suggest to others that the bible consigns people who take Prozac to a fiery hell, don't you think you should support your contentions with the proof you say is contained in the words of the bible by simply producing them? If not, that's ok.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
> You wrote,[...need to cite them...]
> Let us look at Galatians 5 verses 19-21.
> One of the things in the list is {witchcraft}. Sorcery is a subset of witchcraft.
> Now let us look at Revelation 9, verse 21. Since they did not repent, then go to rev 21:8 and rev 22 verse 15.
> But those are only a small part of verses of the whole aspect of mind-altering drugs that the bible talks about.
> Lou
Thank you.To start with, we will need a definition of the word "sorcery" and whether or not the synthesis of medicines qualifies as being such.
The following are the words to the three citations you provided. I do not see anything that equates sorcery with the practice of medicine. Do you?
"Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
"nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts."
"Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 21:13:28
In reply to Lou's reply-hamroutawrning » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 20:53:20
> > You don't need to provide commentary on the words found in the bible that you think support your contentions. You only need to cite them as I have done previously as per your request. If you would like to suggest to others that the bible consigns people who take Prozac to a fiery hell, don't you think you should support your contentions with the proof you say is contained in the words of the bible by simply producing them? If not, that's ok.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
> You wrote,[...need to cite them...]
> Let us look at Galatians 5 verses 19-21.
> One of the things in the list is {witchcraft}. Sorcery is a subset of witchcraft.
> Now let us look at Revelation 9, verse 21. Since they did not repent, then go to rev 21:8 and rev 22 verse 15.
> But those are only a small part of verses of the whole aspect of mind-altering drugs that the bible talks about.
> LouScott,
Noe let us look at rev 20, verse 15.
Here we have those that are cast into the Lake of Fire. But how is one's name to be put into the Book of Life? But more important in this discussion IMO is rev 3:5. Here it tells of how one's name can stay in the Book of Life.
And if we look at Matt 7 verses 21-23, we find that there is another aspect of this.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 7:35:45
In reply to Lou's reply-bokovlieph, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2010, at 21:13:28
Here are the words to the three verses you cited. They do not appear to support your thesis. There is no mention of sorcery, and one cannot infer a definition thereof from within the text. Additionally, we find no reference to "mind-altering chemicals" or the practice of medicine. I do not see that you have demonstrated any support to your contentions. At this juncture, you have not provided any evidence that the practice of psychiatry is sorcery and that the synthesis and application of psychiatric drugs is proscribed in the bible.
- Scott-----------------------------------------------------
"and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."" He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'"
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2010, at 8:27:04
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-bokovlieph, posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 7:35:45
> Here are the words to the three verses you cited. They do not appear to support your thesis. There is no mention of sorcery, and one cannot infer a definition thereof from within the text. Additionally, we find no reference to "mind-altering chemicals" or the practice of medicine. I do not see that you have demonstrated any support to your contentions. At this juncture, you have not provided any evidence that the practice of psychiatry is sorcery and that the synthesis and application of psychiatric drugs is proscribed in the bible.
>
>
> - Scott
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> "and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
>
> " He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
>
> "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'"Scott,
You wrote,[...there is no mention of sorcery...no mention of mind-altering chemicals...].
In order for this topic to be understood, all of what the bible says could clarify about mind-altering drugs and what or/and who are the sorcerers and such.
But the thread here is about what the bible says, not what I think it says or even if it is about if I believe it or not.
To understand more about sorcerers, the word in that bible is pharmakia in the Greek. The book that the word is in was written in the ancient time many many centuries ago. At that time, there were no drug stores or the AMA or such. Drugs were made usually from plants. The sorcerers used the drugs from the plants for mind-altering purposes, or to poison, not to heal.
The verses were cited by me because of a connection with the Book of Life and other verses which I can not cite here due to that they could involve posting the Jewish perspective, the foundation of Judaism, and there is a post here by Mr. Hsiung threatening me with expulsion from this community if I was to post that foundation as revealed to me that I believe.
If you would like to understand more about the word sorcerer, there is Strong's, Theyer's and other lexicons that could give you more infomation. But the overiding aspect of this discussion I have not even opened up to yet, for it involves the God of the bible in question here as to the mind, and the Book of Life, and what that God says about the use of mind-altering drugs in relation to God's will and the Lake of Fire.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 9:53:41
In reply to Lou's reply-thmidovgd » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2010, at 8:27:04
> In order for this topic to be understood, all of what the bible says could clarify about mind-altering drugs and what or/and who are the sorcerers and such.
Isn't presuming the meaning of the bible in its entirety a matter of interpretation?
> But the thread here is about what the bible says, not what I think it says or even if it is about if I believe it or not.
It seems to me that your conclusions rely almost entirely on your own personal interpretations of the words contained in the bible.
So far, my own interpretations of the verses you have cited is that it is an acceptable practice to use Prozac to treat depressive disorders. So, I guess we have a difference of opinion based upon our individual interpretations of the bible rather than a contradiction of ascertainable facts.
- Scott
Posted by Lou PIlder on April 5, 2010, at 14:57:03
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-thmidovgd » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 9:53:41
> > In order for this topic to be understood, all of what the bible says could clarify about mind-altering drugs and what or/and who are the sorcerers and such.
>
> Isn't presuming the meaning of the bible in its entirety a matter of interpretation?
>
> > But the thread here is about what the bible says, not what I think it says or even if it is about if I believe it or not.
>
> It seems to me that your conclusions rely almost entirely on your own personal interpretations of the words contained in the bible.
>
> So far, my own interpretations of the verses you have cited is that it is an acceptable practice to use Prozac to treat depressive disorders. So, I guess we have a difference of opinion based upon our individual interpretations of the bible rather than a contradiction of ascertainable facts.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...the meaning of the bible in its entirety a matter of interpretation?...your conclusions...personal interpretations...].
There are many interpretations of the meaning of the entirety of the bible. Those interpretations are IMO not the same as a revelation of the meaning.
When I write about aspects of the bible, it is that what I write has been revealed to me.
I do not think that I have posted any conclusions here, but have just posted citations to verses. Those that read those verses could see them and make their own determination as to what they mean. But they say what they say. I do not believe that I have posted what has been revealed to me about those citations here yet. Nor can I, for Mr. Hsiung has posted a threat to expell me from this community if I was to post what has been revealed to me about them, which could cause me to post the Jewish perspective, the foundation of Judaism, which has been revealed to me that I believe.
And this brings up something that had happened to me last year. A minister of a popular denomination contacted me as he had an episode and was diagnoed as BP. He was given the popular drug combination and our discusssion was about if taking mind-altering drugs was in the will of God as he thought. We both agreed that it depended upon if his mind would be open or not to satanic forces as a result of taking mind-altering drugs and/or if the drugs became before his God. This is another aspect of this thread's topic that I have not posted about yet which is part of the entirety of the bible. He died suddenly the day before we were to meet to conclude our discussion.
Lou
Posted by Lou PIlder on April 5, 2010, at 15:36:54
In reply to Re: Lou's response-secndth » Lou PIlder, posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 18:17:53
> > This thread is involved in discussion as to if those that use mind-altering drugs will or will not be cast into the Lake of Fire as in the bible in question here.
>
> I guess I missed your point. I am interested in knowing what data you are working with.
>
> If you are to focus the discussion solely around the words of the bible and the interpretation thereof, I would be grateful if you would cite some of the verses in the bible that you feel demonstrate the validity of your thesis. I would also profit from being provided with a short list of some of the chemicals that God deems to be mind-altering, and the criteria by which one is to recognize them.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,
you wrote,[...provide a short list and the criteria...]
And in another place here,[..if they are taken intellegently...]. Were the people named in this video unintelllegent?
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWr1GK7w1uE
Posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 16:39:40
In reply to Lou's response-intc » SLS, posted by Lou PIlder on April 5, 2010, at 15:36:54
> And in another place here,[..if they are taken intellegently...].
My words were: "when used intelligently."
Don't do that anymore.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2010, at 19:32:18
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-thmidovgd » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 9:53:41
> > In order for this topic to be understood, all of what the bible says could clarify about mind-altering drugs and what or/and who are the sorcerers and such.
>
> Isn't presuming the meaning of the bible in its entirety a matter of interpretation?
>
> > But the thread here is about what the bible says, not what I think it says or even if it is about if I believe it or not.
>
> It seems to me that your conclusions rely almost entirely on your own personal interpretations of the words contained in the bible.
>
> So far, my own interpretations of the verses you have cited is that it is an acceptable practice to use Prozac to treat depressive disorders. So, I guess we have a difference of opinion based upon our individual interpretations of the bible rather than a contradiction of ascertainable facts.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...your own ..interpretations of biblical words...]
The interpretation of {sorcerer} is not mine, for it is comming from a Greek word, {pharmakia} which the lexicons state to be drugs, where the word pharmacy comes from.
Sorcerers are defined in lexicons and bible commentaries as those that use mind-altering drugs to poison or control people. Another source is a book by W.E. Wise that defines the word sorcery as such and there is the citation here by BF.
Now the sorcerer has many plants and other substances from insects and snakes to use to cut up and combine to be mind-altering. I also know of the use of by-products from smelting. Here is a list of a few
Jimson weed
mistletoe berries
poison hemlock
rhododendeon
pointsettia leaves
poison mushrooms
hemp
opium
alcohol as fermented in drink
insect and snake poisons
Now the sorcerer could poison another so that the other would die. But the sorcerer found that by giving the person small amounts of the substance without killing the person, then the person's mind could be controlled. The chemicals in the substance beacame mind-altering to deminish or blunt the person's thinking and make them easily controlled. What they may have not known is how those plant chemicals worked to poison. They are neuro-toxins, similar in action to neuroleptic drugs. They then were used as insecticides and rat poison.
Now we are discussing as to if the bible says that it is or is not God's will that people take mind-altering drugs. And there are verses that tell of the fate of sorcerers. Now if there are numerous lexicons that state that the Greek word pharmakia means drugs, and sorcerers are those that use drugs to poison or alter the mind of someone, then I think that this is useful infomation to the person here that believes that the bible is the Word of God and wants to do God's will and not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life. But there is much more to this.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2010, at 21:22:27
In reply to Re: Lou's response-intc » Lou PIlder, posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 16:39:40
> > And in another place here,[..if they are taken intellegently...].
>
> My words were: "when used intelligently."
>
> Don't do that anymore.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...do not do {that} anymore...].
I do not use quotes here because I write from my memory which is not always perfect and have poor hand-eye contact. I am a lousy pool-player. I really can not do better. So what I see is not always what I can write. I am trying to understand what any difference could be in {when taken} an {when used}. To me, they convey the same thing. But if you could post here what the difference could be, then I could understand and have a discussion about it to bring out your point.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 5, 2010, at 22:14:06
In reply to Lou's reply- » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2010, at 21:22:27
> Scott,
you wrote,[...provide a short list and the criteria...]
And in another place here,[..if they are taken intellegently...]. Were the people named in this video unintelllegent?> I do not use quotes here because I write from my memory which is not always perfect
You have demonstrated along this thread the ability to retrieve text from previous posts.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 6:43:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-phoudtnovjudsm » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on April 4, 2010, at 16:04:00
> Do you think science then is sorcery, Lou?
>
> Why didn't I think of that?Sigismund,
You wrote,[...science..is sorcery,...?...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If this is in reklation to the topic of this thread, if you could post answers to the following, thwn I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What branch of science could be included in what you are wanting to mean?
B. If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?
C. If so, how?
D. other questions if the above are answered
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 7:13:55
In reply to Lou's reply-scidy » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 6:43:06
> If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?
In the above question, you provide a definition of the word "sorcery". Which of the drugs used in the healing art of psychiatry do you feel qualify as agents of sorcery when used in the manner prescribed for treating mental illness?
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-scidy » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 7:13:55
> > If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable, would the science that you are wanting to mean here be related to this forum?
>
> In the above question, you provide a definition of the word "sorcery". Which of the drugs used in the healing art of psychiatry do you feel qualify as agents of sorcery when used in the manner prescribed for treating mental illness?
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...drugs used..agents of sorcery...].
Thousands of years ago there were those that used plants to alter the mind of others. There were also insects, spiders, and later chemicals as by-products from chemical dyes and metalurgy and rat and worm and insect poisons.
The uses of the drugs, the agents of the sorcerer, were to make the subject confused and have distorted judgment and have them loose their humananity. The drugs had the potential to induce the subject taking the drug into an artificial psychosis, subhuman, sexless, and demished intellegence. They could also be addicted to the sorcerer's chemicals and had to come back for more, and pay. They sometimes were given drugs that caused hallucinations. The sorcerer could give them a drug to try to turn them into murderers. Hashish was one of those and we get our word {assassin} from those that were given hashish.
The drugs were given by torturers to attempt to extract infomation from the subjct given the drug.
Some of these drugs came from mushrooms and cactus plants and the coaco bush and hemp . Urea and an ester from apples made up the barbituates and some ergots were hallucinogenic.
Now the sorcerer did not have the knowlege of how nerve agents or neuro-toxins or neuroleptics work as we know today. Today, chemists can synthesize compounds that have psychoactive effects.
But I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
B. If so, how could you determine the person's intent?
C. other questions if the above are answerd.
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 10:08:46
In reply to Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23
> Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 13:25:25
In reply to Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 9:25:23
> > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
>
> I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
>
> How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 14:48:18
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-duzitmaddr? » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 7, 2010, at 13:25:25
> > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> >
> > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> >
> > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
>
> Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
>
> I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
D. Do you base the above on something else?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 16:48:50
In reply to Lou's reply-howlhedudat » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 14:48:18
> > > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> > >
> > > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> > >
> > > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
> >
> > Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
> >
> > I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Scott,
> You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
> I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
> B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
> C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
> D. Do you base the above on something else?
> LouFriends,
If you are considering posting here or in parallel threads, I ask that you consider what is in this post.
The aspect of controlling by the use of drugs has many ways that that could be done.
One way of controlling is to addict the subject given the drug. They then become controlled to come back to get more, for a price. This is an ancient way of controlling someone.
Here is a link to a post by a member here that says why they take the drug.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100406/msgs/942451.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 20:57:29
In reply to Lou's request to members-ydeydu, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 16:48:50
> > > > > Would the person's intent that gives another a mind-altering drug that has the potential to make the person want to kill themself, or be addicted to it, or cause them to be dehumanized, be what is needed to determine if sorcery is or is not practiced?
> > > >
> > > > I believe you will find the answer to this question in your own words as they are contained in a previous post: "If sorcery is the use of drugs to poison someone to make them die, or alter one's mind to make them controllable..."
> > > >
> > > > How do you define the term "mind-altering"? What must occur?
> > >
> > > Sorry. I guess you already answered that question as well. You suggest that it must render one controllable.
> > >
> > > I doubt that we will resolve our differences on the issues surrounding the use of psychiatric medicines to treat mental illness and how the bible may be interpreted regarding this practice. I don't think the bible prohibits the use of Prozac to treat depressive disorders.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > Scott,
> > You wrote,[...I don't think the bible prohibits...].
> > I am unsure as to why you think that as to what you base your thiunking on. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> > A. Do you base the above on that you have read and understand the entire bible?
> > B. Do you base the above on only the discussion we are having here?
> > C. Do you base the above on what someone else has told you?
> > D. Do you base the above on something else?
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering posting here or in parallel threads, I ask that you consider what is in this post.
> The aspect of controlling by the use of drugs has many ways that that could be done.
> One way of controlling is to addict the subject given the drug. They then become controlled to come back to get more, for a price. This is an ancient way of controlling someone.
> Here is a link to a post by a member here that says why they take the drug.
> Lou
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100406/msgs/942451.htmlFriends,
I would like for you to see this video if you are considring being a discussant in this thread.
I ask:
Do you know what it means for a drug to be mind-altering?
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni0lK4Na6VY
Posted by Laney on April 8, 2010, at 10:15:30
In reply to Lou's request to members-duyunoe?, posted by Lou Pilder on April 7, 2010, at 20:57:29
Hi Lou,
I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?
Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.
Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.
God bless you all.
Alayna
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16
In reply to Re: Lou's request to members-duyunoe?, posted by Laney on April 8, 2010, at 10:15:30
> Hi Lou,
>
> I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?
>
> Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.
>
> Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.
>
> God bless you all.
>
> AlaynaAlayna,
You wrote,[...I am on mind-altering medication...head pressure..took it and it went away..screwed up things in my brain...regret going on it...trying to get off it is hellish...I'm messed up from these drugs...(separated) from God...relationship with God (helps)..still is all the difference in the world...once the brain is alterd..what are we to do?...we are being innundated with commercials...can (influence) anyone...].
You are another that has told me what makes me believe that they are standing at the edge of the Great Gulf, separated from their God and wanting to overcome the addiction. The questions here in this thread are as to if taking mind-altering drugs classifies one or not as a sorcerer according to the bible discussed here.
That bible says that the sorcerers will be in the Lake of Fire. And that bible also says that there is a Great Deception. That bible says that all the nations are decieved by the great economic companies and their sorceries. This can be found in Rev 18:23
You see, that bible says that he that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death, the Lake of Fire, and will not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life and will be given to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the paradisse of God. And there will be great tribulation, but he that overcomes and is faithful until death will be given a Crown of Life.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 7:34:57
In reply to Lou's reply-crwnovlif » Laney, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2010, at 14:26:16
> > Hi Lou,
> >
> > I'm on medication - yes mind altering I would somewhat agree. My story is that I was put on paxil for what was probably anxiety. I had head pressure. Pure and simple. I wasn't anxious or depressed at the time but the doctor said that it helps with a wide range of symptoms and because I trusted him (he was a christian by the way) I took it and yes, the head pressure went away. I never felt that it altered my mind while on it. I felt exactly the same as I always felt. At points along the way I wanted to get off of it because I didn't want to have to take a pill forever. It was only when I tried to go off of it that it showed me how attached it was to me. That made me all the more want to get off of it. So all of the attempts that I've made have screwed up things in my brain (in my opinion) if anything. But again, I didn't feel any different on it at all. I can't say it made me feel normal because I felt exactly like myself. Do I reget going on it. You bet. Why? Because trying to get off of it has been hellish to say the least. Again, I think my brain got screwed up with the stress of the tapers maybe. Who knows?
> >
> > Anyway, here I am. I'm a christian and yes I Love Jesus and right now because I'm messed up from these drugs and haven't gotten back on track yet, my "relationship" to God has suffered immensely. I feel like I have a disconnect. Is it my fault? Partly but definitely not all of it. But there are us spiritual folks out there that have taken these kinds of meds for all kinds of reasons and this is just my little story. Would I take meds for situational depression? Probably not. I have been there and have gotten through that type of depression prior to meds. Yes and relationship with God helped immensely. It was and still is all the difference in the world to me. But once the brain is altered or affected or whatever what are we to do? I have prayed hundreds of times over this and I am where I am. It's not God's fault that I'm experiencing this but yes, He could make me well but has chosen not to for His good reasons at this time. I'm doing the best I can and He knows it. But if Psych drugs can save lives from suicide and the like, they should be used. They are used too much for sure. The mass or the people should be reached prior to going on drugs. Maybe they'd think twice and try a different route. But think about it. We're being innundated with commercials for these drugs that make it seem like if you feel bad at all, take this or that. I mean these are on all the time. It can get to anyone, even spiritual people. We're just human.
> >
> > Anyway, enough of my ranting for now. I've got to go get ready for work.
> >
> > God bless you all.
> >
> > Alayna
>
> Alayna,
> You wrote,[...I am on mind-altering medication...head pressure..took it and it went away..screwed up things in my brain...regret going on it...trying to get off it is hellish...I'm messed up from these drugs...(separated) from God...relationship with God (helps)..still is all the difference in the world...once the brain is alterd..what are we to do?...we are being innundated with commercials...can (influence) anyone...].
> You are another that has told me what makes me believe that they are standing at the edge of the Great Gulf, separated from their God and wanting to overcome the addiction. The questions here in this thread are as to if taking mind-altering drugs classifies one or not as a sorcerer according to the bible discussed here.
> That bible says that the sorcerers will be in the Lake of Fire. And that bible also says that there is a Great Deception. That bible says that all the nations are decieved by the great economic companies and their sorceries. This can be found in Rev 18:23
> You see, that bible says that he that overcomes will not be hurt of the second death, the Lake of Fire, and will not have their name blotted out of the Book of Life and will be given to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the paradisse of God. And there will be great tribulation, but he that overcomes and is faithful until death will be given a Crown of Life.
> Lou
>
Alayna,
You wrote,[...I'm a Christion...what are we to do?...].
There is a way for Christians to overcome. I am not a member of Christiandom, but I have a perspective from Judaism that I have been able to share with Christians in order to help them overcome addiction. I have posted here that there is much more to this topic here.
The Christian bible writes about sorcery which is from a Greek word,{pharmakapeia} which is generally understood to be drugs. The question in the bible is who is a sorcerer and what are the criteria used to determine that, for they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The ancient Greek language and the historical record in the bible says that the sorcerer uses mind-altering drugs to kill or control someone. The drugs were generally neuro-toxins from plants in ancient times. Then there iss the aspect that the sorcerer uses deceit to market the drugs, which is the plain use of {deception}.
Now deception started in the Garden of Eden where the serpent deceived Adam and Eve. The serpent said, [...yea has God said?...]. The serpent planted doubt in the mind about the God of Adam and Eve. So another way to decern a sorcerer is that the sorcerer will plant doubt in the mind's of believers, including Christians, about what they think their God says about mind-altering drugs.
So you wrote,[...what are we to do?...].
Those standing at the edge of the Great Gulf are seeking the Kingdom of God on the other side. One one side that they are standing is death and on the other side is life and peace.
And as I stood at the Great Gulf there was a Rider on a White Horse. And He said to me, "I beseech you that you present your body a living sacifice to God. And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind to know what is the will of God. Abhor that which is evil; cleve to that which is good. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."
Lou
Posted by SLS on April 9, 2010, at 12:45:34
In reply to Lou's reply-ovrcm, posted by Lou Pilder on April 9, 2010, at 7:34:57
> I am not a member of Christiandom, but I have a perspective from Judaism that I have been able to share with Christian
From what consensus in Judaism do you draw a perspective that you would call Jewish?
- Scott
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