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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sdb on April 17, 2005, at 11:27:05
Does somebody have success with Niacinamide against anxiety, sp and pd? When, yes which product, dosage?
I heard it would interact with GABA receptors.
Thanks
Posted by KaraS on April 17, 2005, at 17:08:45
In reply to NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 17, 2005, at 11:27:05
> Does somebody have success with Niacinamide against anxiety, sp and pd? When, yes which product, dosage?
>
> I heard it would interact with GABA receptors.
>
> Thanks
Yes, niacinamide helped me for a while with GAD and PD. I haven't really had a problem with SP. I was taking 1/3 of 500 mg. capsule two or three times a day. If I took more than that, it would put me to sleep. From what I've read, most people need more than that. The max. dosage is 500 mg. 4 X a day.When stress in my life got worse, I needed to take medication but the niacinamide helped in the interim.
There are a lot of good threads on this in the archives here if you do a search.
K
Posted by sdb on April 18, 2005, at 10:19:34
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by KaraS on April 17, 2005, at 17:08:45
Thank you KaraS for your response.
Unfortunately I have not seen much in the forum about niacinamide or Niacin. There was somebody saying it would be a complete replacement for clonazepam after twenty years. But after reading some posts from him some weeks later it seemed that he changed to Nardil.
I have ordered a 1500mg slow-release Niacinamide version from natural sources. I will see what it does and share my experience.
Kind regards
Posted by Spriggy on April 18, 2005, at 12:12:49
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 18, 2005, at 10:19:34
My husband tried Niacin once ( someone told him it was good for his heart or something..lol), he felt very warm/flush and broke out in hives.
Because of his reaction, I've always been scared to try it.
Posted by KaraS on April 18, 2005, at 15:06:18
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by Spriggy on April 18, 2005, at 12:12:49
> My husband tried Niacin once ( someone told him it was good for his heart or something..lol), he felt very warm/flush and broke out in hives.
>
> Because of his reaction, I've always been scared to try it.
With niacinamide you avoid the flush of regular niacin.K
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2005, at 21:39:35
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Spriggy, posted by KaraS on April 18, 2005, at 15:06:18
Spriggy, That's correct. Niacinamide avoids the flush and itching niacin causes. I used to take niacin and turned beet red and flushed and itched for about an hour. I of course stopped it. Now I'll only take supplements in their comlete form as in B complex unless it's for water retention. Then I'll take B6 as my OBGYN once suggested it when I was younger. If you take too high a doseage for a long time it can lead to nervous disorders. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by sdb on April 20, 2005, at 11:07:33
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2005, at 21:39:35
There was somebody in this forum, who said that he could replace klonopin after twenty years with niacinamide. Some months later in the forum it seems that he had changed to Nardil.
look at this:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030505/msgs/226283.html
Some say niacin should be more effective as niacinamide
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 10:41:36
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 20, 2005, at 11:07:33
> There was somebody in this forum, who said that he could replace klonopin after twenty years with niacinamide. Some months later in the forum it seems that he had changed to Nardil.
>
> look at this:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030505/msgs/226283.html
>
> Some say niacin should be more effective as niacinamideMore effective for what, exactly?
If you're referring back to the original subject you posted about, anxiety and its related disorders of Social Phobia and Personality Disorder?.....there is only one answer that is correct, and that is niacinamide.
Only the amide binds to the benzodiazepine receptor. Think about the arrogance or hubris or whatever it is that brought us to calling a natural receptor complex after a drug that coincidentally affected that receptor. Did we think God or Mother Nature put it there for our drug to use?
Niacinamide and magnesium both (and quite separately) increase the activity of the benzodiazepine receptor. Niacinamide also mildly agonizes the receptor (acts as an activator).
Niacin does other things entirely.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 17:02:52
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 10:41:36
Lar, how much niacinamide do you recommend? It seems that everything is pooping out for me, and I'm becoming very depressed and so anxious I don't even react when something happens. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 17:49:58
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 17:02:52
> Lar, how much niacinamide do you recommend? It seems that everything is pooping out for me, and I'm becoming very depressed and so anxious I don't even react when something happens. Fondly, Phillipa
Single dose, 100-500 mg. Maximum total dose, 2000 mg/day. Individual response varies widely.
Just make very sure you're using niacinamide, not one of the other forms of niacin.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:17:47
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 17:49:58
Thanks so much Larry. I think I'll try it. Years ago I remember taking niacin[don't remember why] and it made me red around the face and neck. I later learned that this side effect didn't occur with niacinamide. I don't even know what the niacin was supposed to be good for. I didn't take it long. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 19:06:15
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2005, at 18:17:47
> Thanks so much Larry. I think I'll try it. Years ago I remember taking niacin[don't remember why] and it made me red around the face and neck. I later learned that this side effect didn't occur with niacinamide. I don't even know what the niacin was supposed to be good for. I didn't take it long. Fondly, Phillipa
The niacin flush is histaminic activity in dermal tissue....it also occurs internally, to some extent.
Niacinamide actually has a diametrically opposite effect; it inhibits mast cell degranulation, which is the process of histamine release. Therefore, niacinamide makes a good augment for hayfever treatment, and asthma, too. It also encourages joint health, and may be useful in osteoarthritis.
High dose niacin is sometimes used to treat high triglycerides, high cholesterol, and atherosclerosis. Despite the fact that blood sugar actually increases under high-dose niacin, the amount of hemoglobin A1C (a measure of cumulative blood sugar exposure) actually decreases over time.....suggesting modulation of insulin responsivity.
Lar
Posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 19:06:15
Thats interesting. I have never heard it would inhibit mast cell "degranulation". I think that could be useful especially for me in the spring. But perhaps it could sensibilize (through IgE globulins) your immunsystem once you stop the niacinamide. If you take a not cardioselecive betablocker you should be cautious not to have inflammation and therefore spastic constriction of the bronchioli.
Posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 16:06:11
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
I would not say niacin does not have any effect on gaba receptors. All depends about the affinity or in some cases avidity (ligands to receptors) but also the dosage of every substance you take.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:14:43
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 15:41:15
> Thats interesting. I have never heard it would inhibit mast cell "degranulation". I think that could be useful especially for me in the spring. But perhaps it could sensibilize (through IgE globulins) your immunsystem once you stop the niacinamide. If you take a not cardioselecive betablocker you should be cautious not to have inflammation and therefore spastic constriction of the bronchioli.
It's a direct, receptor-stabilizing inhibitory effect. Niacinamide "raises the threshold" for mast cell histamine release. All the relevant research was done in Eastern Europe, during the Cold War. They had a totally different philosophy over there. E.g., Picamilon is a result of the research into niacinamide modulating the GABA(A) receptor. Anyway, here are some suggestive titles of papers in the Pubmed archives....no abstracts (though I've found bits of the contents, in other places).
Lar
Chyrek-Borowska S, Gruszecka M, Hofman J.
[Combined treatment with hypostamine and nicotinamide of allergic reactions and asthma]
Pol Tyg Lek. 1978 Jan 16;33(3):107-8.Bekier E, Maslinski C.
Antihistaminic action of nicotinamide.
Agents Actions. 1974 Aug;4(3):196.Bekier E, Wyczolkowska J, Szyc H, Maslinski C.
The inhibitory effect of nicotinamide on asthma-like symptoms and eosinophilia in guinea pigs, anaphylactic mast cell degranulation in mice, and histamine release from rat isolated peritoneal mast cells by compound 48-80.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1974;47(5):737-48.Bekier E, Czerwinska U.
The effect of nicotinamide on the experimental asthma in guinea pigs.
Acta Physiol Pol. 1973 Nov-Dec;24(6):887-9.Bekier E, Szyc H, Czerwinska U, Maslinski C.
The influence of nicotinamide on the course of experimental bronchial asthma in guinea pig.
Agents Actions. 1973 Oct;3(3):176.Czezowska Z, Kowal-Gierczak B, Wrzyszcz M.
The effect of nicotinamide on the urinary 17-hydroxysteroid excretion in patients with allergic bronchial asthma.
Pol Med J. 1971;10(1):42-6.Wyczolkowska J, Maslinski C.
Inhibition by nicotinamide of an homologous PCA reaction and antigen-induced histamine release from rat peritoneal mast cells.
Int Arch Allergy Appl Immunol. 1975;49(3):285-92.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD, posted by sdb on April 26, 2005, at 16:06:11
> I would not say niacin does not have any effect on gaba receptors. All depends about the affinity or in some cases avidity (ligands to receptors) but also the dosage of every substance you take.
Niacinamide and NAD both have binding affinity for GABA(A) receptors. Both change the conformation of the receptor itself, making it more sensitive to GABA. Niacinamide is a (mild) partial agonist, and I believe NAD is, as well.
As niacinamide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, it can serve acutely as an anxiolytic. Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin.
Over in Eastern Europe, it's taken as a fact that niacinamide is anxiolytic. Again, there are earlier publications with no abstracts, but here's a fairly recent one that sums up their belief in these effects.....
Biull Eksp Biol Med. 1993 May;115(5):487-91.
[Psychoregulating role of nicotinamide]
[Article in Russian]
Akhundov RA, Sultanov AA, Gadzhily RA, Sadykhov RV.
In the experiment and clinics, psychotropic effect of nicotinamide (tranquilized and nootropic activity) has been established. It has been shown that nicotinamide in conflict situation has anxiolytic effect, increase aggressive reaction threshold, decrease the quantity of induced fights during interspecies' incompatibility modelling.
Best,
Lar
Posted by sdb on April 27, 2005, at 10:01:12
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
Hi!
Thank you Lar for your knowledge.
Somebody who worked with the inventor of diazepam (who was picked up during world war II) told me:
Young boy you may have the faster brain than i have but I have a lot of life experience.
We have synthesized many thousand substances in the laboratory and many of them we have taken ourself to look what it does.
So I have learnt to listen carefully to people with life experience and to people with a lot of knowledge you can only obtain by time.
Relating to this forum I like to share the "applied" knowledge (linked to drugs), I like to feel connected and I like to hear to people who can tell something.
Regards
sdb
Posted by cache-monkey on May 7, 2005, at 17:40:25
In reply to Re: NIACINAMIDE for Anxiety, SP/PD » sdb, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 9:20:20
Hi Larry,
I've been on benzos for the last couple of months. I've found that they really haven't done enough for my anxiety. They've been more sedating and depressiogenic than anxiolytic. I've been recently on Ativan and could feel it wearing off between doses. My pdoc wants me to discontinue, and I've been trying to work my way down from 3 mg.
I've been playing around with niacinamide since I heard about it on this board. I've noticed that in terms of my anxiety, nicanimide is far better than any of the benzos I've tried. I had been hoping to use it to withdraw from Ativan (I've seen reference to a study backing this idea) or perhaps switch over to it as a regular anxiolytic.
But, based on what you wrote here, I'm wondering if that leaves me with the same tolerance problem as with the benzos. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Also, do you happen to know the half-life of niacinamide? (If it's pretty short and the tolerance problem holds, then using it to taper probably isn't a great idea.)
Thanks,
cache-monkey<< Niacinamide and NAD both have binding affinity for GABA(A) receptors. Both change the conformation of the receptor itself, making it more sensitive to GABA. Niacinamide is a (mild) partial agonist, and I believe NAD is, as well.
As niacinamide readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, it can serve acutely as an anxiolytic. Long-term use would likely lead to down-regulation. Best keep niacinamide as an acute treatment, rather than use it as a maintenance vitamin. >>
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:02:34
In reply to Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » Larry Hoover, posted by cache-monkey on May 7, 2005, at 17:40:25
Hi CM
How much niacinamide were you taking? I'd like to use it to at least moderate my Valium use.
Declan
Posted by cache-monkey on May 8, 2005, at 14:55:41
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:02:34
Hey Declan,
Right now I'll take an occasional 250 mg tab. If I'm really anxious, though, that only seems to last for about 4 hours or so...
If that's the effective half-life and it hits the same receptors as valium (*) you might be better off with the valium. Especially if the goal is to withdraw/taper. (* I'm not sure about either "if", hence the last post.)
I'm hoping Larry chimes in again to clarify...
Good luck,
cache-monkey
> Hi CM
> How much niacinamide were you taking? I'd like to use it to at least moderate my Valium use.
> Declan
Posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » Declan, posted by cache-monkey on May 8, 2005, at 14:55:41
I think that Larry told me to take between l00mg and 500mg. But don't quote me on that. I too take valium. How much do you take? Do you think it works? I'm still unable to work and scared to be alone. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 19:31:58
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » cache-monkey, posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
Hi Phillipa
I take 7.5mg at the moment. Perhaps if I take say 1000mg niacinamide/d I could take a little less. You mean does the Valium still work? Well yes, but I think it makes things worse in the long run. When I took lots I ended up agoraphobic, I guess you might say. Now I just have common or garden anhedonia. Just finishing The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon, nice to have a good book.
Declan
Posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 19:53:36
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 19:31:58
I must really be an addict. I take l5mg total a day and don't feel a thing. When I took it years ago 5mg allowed me to go out and do anything I wanted and feel great. That doesn't help anymore. I don't know what to think. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 1:16:11
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal? » cache-monkey, posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2005, at 16:35:32
Hi Phillipa,
I'm actually not taking valium anymore, since I found it too sedating/depressing. When I did, I was on about 8 mg/day spread out. I switched to Ativan at 3 mg/day and now my pdoc wants me to withdraw completely.
He thinks the benzos are making me worse off. Maybe so, maybe not. I think it's more likely the Depakote, but I'm getting worried about tolerance/dependence issues. I'm actually starting Seroquel to deal with my bipolar-ish anxiety and depression and to help me wean off the benzos. (For weaning purposes, I'm going through Klonopin b/c of the longer half-life.)
As far as the niacinamide, I take 250 mg once or twice a day. It seems to help, but not for very long. And I'm worried that since it hits the same receptors as the benzos it might not be such a good thing to use while tapering.
Not sure if this really answers your question, though. In your case, my concern would be that if you've acclimatized to valium, you might also acclimatize to niacinamide. It might be better to use PRN for situational anxiety rather than as a regular anxiolytic.
Have you tried other traditional meds for anxiety? E.g. Seroquel, the SSRIs and/or MAOIs?
Best,
cache-monkey<< I think that Larry told me to take between l00mg and 500mg. But don't quote me on that. I too take valium. How much do you take? Do you think it works? I'm still unable to work and scared to be alone. Fondly, Phillipa >>
Posted by Declan on May 9, 2005, at 1:35:34
In reply to Re: Niacinamide is great, but: Dependence? Withdrawal?, posted by cache-monkey on May 9, 2005, at 1:16:11
Hi CM
I thought the fact that niacinamide hits the same receptors as benzos *is* the reason it would be useful when tapering. And if you ended up just as addicted/dependant? Its hard to imagine, if only because its going to be less effective. Once I discontinued 1600mg/d SAMe and had a noticeable withdrawal type feeling, but I'm sure it was nothing like wd from SSRIs. Not the same, but still....
Declan
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