![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by world citizen on February 13, 2005, at 21:57:40
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on February 12, 2005, at 21:32:03
>
Hi Elroy,Here is a site so you can employ the "independent search for truth" otherwise known as "see with thine own eyes and not with the eyes of another"-www.modafinil.com (Modafinil=Provigil).
I'll preface what I'm going to say by informing you that I have no letters following my name. I'm only sharing what I've experienced and what makes sense through my research.
It would appear to me that if you have an anxiety disorder of some type and are therefore taking xanax XR then the use of Provigil might, in fact, be contraindicated due to the fact that it appears to be a GABA antagonist, at least on some of the gaba receptors. The Provigil would make you very alert for 12-15 hours but due to anxiety this may not qualify as "quality time". (please access the site indicated above)
On the other hand...
Selegiline and DLPA enhance the dopamine in your brain (to know more of a technical nature of how this occurs joe@dancesafe.org) AND is neural-protective!As far as the L-theanine I just treat it as any other amino acid I want to pass the blood-brain barrier-take 1/2 hour before meals, take with 500mgs vitamin C, 100-200 mgs vitamin B6 and take with sweet juice-apple juice seems to work well.
If your MD puts you on the Provigil the L-theanine would pretty much be a waste of money as you may discover upon reading the information at modafinil.com.I hope this is helpful. The only other ingredient that I add is vitamin G, otheriwse "known" as God! I pray for guidance on a regular basis and am very pleased with the efficacy of this Most Great Vitamin!
world citizen
Yes, have read a couple of places that L-theanine is very effective at reducing anxiety. Any ideas on general doses, times, empty stomach, etc? I am only on 1mg Xanax XR twice a day so should be able to wean off slowly... but don't want to do that until have established protocol with AD formula. My preference would be to go with the Selegiline and DLPA (low doses on both) while my psych doc is leaning a little more towards Provigil.
>
> Elroy
>
>
>
Posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 21:38:33
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 13, 2005, at 21:57:40
World Citizen,
Thanks for info. Am going to try and convince my psych doc to go with the selegiline option (low dose with DLPA, Vit 6, etc.) and see how that works out. If effective at eliminating depression would then like to gradually wean off the Xanax XR and go with something more antural. You think L-theanine would be a better option than say a SJW... or how about the Nootropic compound picamilone (seeing as how it is a combo of Niacin and GABA)?
Elroy
Posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 11:41:29
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on February 15, 2005, at 21:38:33
Hey Elroy,
I'm not at all convinced the GABA taken orally passes the blood-brain barrier-even with niacin. As far as St. JOhns'Wort, I'd HIGHLY advise against taking it along with Selegiline as the researchers believe it has several modes of action in terms of acting as antideprossant. Your might want to consult with several pharmacists and get a consensus on this. I would think it would be easier to take a good valerian root extract as this DOES pass the blood-brain barrier, attends to similar GABA receptors as the benzos., AND is not contraindicated with Selegiline. I'm investigating a suppliment that contains L-theanine, taurine, magnesium, GABA and valerian.
Here's the rendown: THEANINE SERINE from Source Naturals. composition; 60 tabsMag. chelate 300mgs
GABA 500mgs
taurine 500mgs
theanine 200mgs
valerian 100mgsThis product is being offered at VITACOST.COM for
about $16.00. Seems like a good investment to me
World Citizen
> Thanks for info. Am going to try and convince my psych doc to go with the selegiline option (low dose with DLPA, Vit 6, etc.) and see how that works out. If effective at eliminating depression would then like to gradually wean off the Xanax XR and go with something more antural. You think L-theanine would be a better option than say a SJW... or how about the Nootropic compound picamilone (seeing as how it is a combo of Niacin and GABA)?
>
> Elroy
>
>
Posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:33:23
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 11:41:29
Well, have been doing some research on the Picamilon(e). Sounds interesting enough to be worth a try. I just ordered some last night, so will see how it works out (and will post with results).
BTW, I have tried a number of online web sites (such as drugdigest.org) and have found NO interactions for the combination of the following drugs and herbs:
* Selegiline and St. John's Wort
* Selegiline and samE (Sammy)
* Selegiline and Tryptophan or 5-HTP
* Selegiline and Xanax XR
* Selegiline and ValerianIt seems that Selegiline (and most therapeutic doses are actually for Parkinson's and in the 30 - 60 mg range) so I think that the very low dose Selegiline being discussed here is actually extremely safe.
Also interesting info on SJW and it's effectiveness and interaction with other drugs found at following web sites:
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/100/105807
New research shows the herbal supplement St. John's Wort to be as effective as one of the most popular prescription antidepressants for treating both moderate and severe depression... researchers treated 251 patients with major depression with either a standard dose of the St. John's Wort extract (900 milligrams a day) or the antidepressant Paxil (20 milligrams a day)... 71% of the patients taking St. John's Wort and 60% of those taking Paxil had responded to treatment. Half of the St. John's Wort-treated patients and 35% of the Paxil-treated patients were free of depression symptoms... concerns have been raised in recent years about interactions with other medications. It has been shown to decrease the effectiveness of some lifesaving drugs, including those that fight cancer and AIDS, and drugs, such as cyclosporine, that prevent organ rejection after a transplant... study published in the fall of 2003 showed that taking the herbal supplement reduces the effectiveness of as many as half of all prescription and over-the-counter drugs...I know that there's an interaction with Xanax so would not even consider taking it until I was weaned off the Xanax (but probably would be okay taking Theanine while on the Xanax until I could wean off???).
Also at:
http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/newsATemp.aspx?articleid=11690&zoneid=41
According to a randomized, double-blind, reference-controlled clinical study published today in the prestigious British Medical Journal, the proprietary St. John's Wort extract WS(R) 5570 is at least as effective in treating depression and better tolerated by patients than the widely prescribed anti-depressant paroxetine.(1)... n the U.S., an identical strength version of WS(R) 5570 is sold as a natural dietary supplement for promoting a positive mood, rather than a drug for the treatment of depression. This extract (WS(R) 5572) contains the same patented, standardized and stabilized hyperforin content as WS(R) 5570, and is marketed as Perika(R) St. John's Wort by Nature's Way Products, Inc., Springville, Utah. Perika(R) is available nationwide at health and nutrition retail outlets...
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/perika.html $8.00 and change for 60 tabs but at 300mg per tab and needing to take 900mgs, would need be like $25 for a 2-month supply... however this one IS cheaper at VitaCost...
http://www.vitacost.com/Store/Products/ProductDescription.cfm?SKUNumber=033674065600&searchby=PN&SearchText=Perika
$6.99 for 60 tabs but at 300mg per tab and needing to take 900mgs, would need be like $21 for a 2-month supply...
Unfortunately all still speculation at this point as still awaiting word from psych doc in getting prescribed the Selegiline... am still hoping though to give the Selegiline and DLPA (and Vit B6, etc.) a chance.I'd sure like to make a posting like the last one from Pseudonym...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041211/msgs/430276.html
Elroy
P.S. Thanks for the information on THEANINE SERINE from Source Naturals. That sounds very promising. Will definitely look into it. BTWm iHerb has it much cheaper:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/theanineserene1.html
Plus a version with Relora (anti-cortisol) added in (that also is still cheaper)
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/theanineserene.html
Serving size:2 Tablets
Servings Per Container: 30
Amount Per ServingMagnesium (as magnesium chelate) 300 mg
GABA 500 mg
Taurine 450 mg
L-Theanine 200 mg
Relora (a proprietary blend of patent pending plant extracts from Phellodendron amutense and Magnolia officinalis ) 150 mg
Valerian Root Extract 100 mg
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
>
> I'm not at all convinced the GABA taken orally passes the blood-brain barrier-even with niacin. As far as St. JOhns'Wort, I'd HIGHLY advise against taking it along with Selegiline as the researchers believe it has several modes of action in terms of acting as antideprossant. Your might want to consult with several pharmacists and get a consensus on this. I would think it would be easier to take a good valerian root extract as this DOES pass the blood-brain barrier, attends to similar GABA receptors as the benzos., AND is not contraindicated with Selegiline. I'm investigating a suppliment that contains L-theanine, taurine, magnesium, GABA and valerian.
> Here's the rendown: THEANINE SERINE from Source Naturals. composition; 60 tabs
>
> Mag. chelate 300mgs
> GABA 500mgs
> taurine 500mgs
> theanine 200mgs
> valerian 100mgs
>
> This product is being offered at VITACOST.COM for
> about $16.00. Seems like a good investment to me
> World Citizen
>
>
>
> > Thanks for info. Am going to try and convince my psych doc to go with the selegiline option (low dose with DLPA, Vit 6, etc.) and see how that works out. If effective at eliminating depression would then like to gradually wean off the Xanax XR and go with something more antural. You think L-theanine would be a better option than say a SJW... or how about the Nootropic compound picamilone (seeing as how it is a combo of Niacin and GABA)?
> >
> > Elroy
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 21:07:39
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:33:23
>
Elroy,
If you'd like to try Selegiling until your MD prescribes it (or you find a different MD) here is the company where I first purchased Selegiline AKA Deprenyl; Interantional Anti-aging System-just google it. It's outside the US, a prescription is not required, nor is it illegal to purchase it in this manner. It takes about 2-3 weeks to arrive (must take the slow boat). It comes in liquid and tablets, I find the tablets much easier!I just want to make sure that we're clear on something: Selegiline IS an MAO(b)inhibitor,therefore it does act as an antidepresessant. If you take this and the SJW, it would seem to be redundant.
I don't know a thing about Picamilon(e) but will track it down and look it up!World Citizen
Well, have been doing some research on the Picamilon(e). Sounds interesting enough to be worth a try. I just ordered some last night, so will see how it works out (and will post with results).
>
> BTW, I have tried a number of online web sites (such as drugdigest.org) and have found NO interactions for the combination of the following drugs and herbs:
>
> * Selegiline and St. John's Wort
> * Selegiline and samE (Sammy)
> * Selegiline and Tryptophan or 5-HTP
> * Selegiline and Xanax XR
> * Selegiline and Valerian
>
> It seems that Selegiline (and most therapeutic doses are actually for Parkinson's and in the 30 - 60 mg range) so I think that the very low dose Selegiline being discussed here is actually extremely safe.
>
> Also interesting info on SJW and it's effectiveness and interaction with other drugs found at following web sites:
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/100/105807
> New research shows the herbal supplement St. John's Wort to be as effective as one of the most popular prescription antidepressants for treating both moderate and severe depression... researchers treated 251 patients with major depression with either a standard dose of the St. John's Wort extract (900 milligrams a day) or the antidepressant Paxil (20 milligrams a day)... 71% of the patients taking St. John's Wort and 60% of those taking Paxil had responded to treatment. Half of the St. John's Wort-treated patients and 35% of the Paxil-treated patients were free of depression symptoms... concerns have been raised in recent years about interactions with other medications. It has been shown to decrease the effectiveness of some lifesaving drugs, including those that fight cancer and AIDS, and drugs, such as cyclosporine, that prevent organ rejection after a transplant... study published in the fall of 2003 showed that taking the herbal supplement reduces the effectiveness of as many as half of all prescription and over-the-counter drugs...
>
> I know that there's an interaction with Xanax so would not even consider taking it until I was weaned off the Xanax (but probably would be okay taking Theanine while on the Xanax until I could wean off???).
>
> Also at:
>
> http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/newsATemp.aspx?articleid=11690&zoneid=41
> According to a randomized, double-blind, reference-controlled clinical study published today in the prestigious British Medical Journal, the proprietary St. John's Wort extract WS(R) 5570 is at least as effective in treating depression and better tolerated by patients than the widely prescribed anti-depressant paroxetine.(1)... n the U.S., an identical strength version of WS(R) 5570 is sold as a natural dietary supplement for promoting a positive mood, rather than a drug for the treatment of depression. This extract (WS(R) 5572) contains the same patented, standardized and stabilized hyperforin content as WS(R) 5570, and is marketed as Perika(R) St. John's Wort by Nature's Way Products, Inc., Springville, Utah. Perika(R) is available nationwide at health and nutrition retail outlets...
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/perika.html $8.00 and change for 60 tabs but at 300mg per tab and needing to take 900mgs, would need be like $25 for a 2-month supply... however this one IS cheaper at VitaCost...
> http://www.vitacost.com/Store/Products/ProductDescription.cfm?SKUNumber=033674065600&searchby=PN&SearchText=Perika
> $6.99 for 60 tabs but at 300mg per tab and needing to take 900mgs, would need be like $21 for a 2-month supply...
>
>
> Unfortunately all still speculation at this point as still awaiting word from psych doc in getting prescribed the Selegiline... am still hoping though to give the Selegiline and DLPA (and Vit B6, etc.) a chance.
>
> I'd sure like to make a posting like the last one from Pseudonym...
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041211/msgs/430276.html
>
> Elroy
>
> P.S. Thanks for the information on THEANINE SERINE from Source Naturals. That sounds very promising. Will definitely look into it. BTWm iHerb has it much cheaper:
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/theanineserene1.html
>
> Plus a version with Relora (anti-cortisol) added in (that also is still cheaper)
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/theanineserene.html
>
> Serving size:2 Tablets
> Servings Per Container: 30
>
> Amount Per Serving
>
> Magnesium (as magnesium chelate) 300 mg
> GABA 500 mg
> Taurine 450 mg
> L-Theanine 200 mg
> Relora (a proprietary blend of patent pending plant extracts from Phellodendron amutense and Magnolia officinalis ) 150 mg
> Valerian Root Extract 100 mg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
Posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 23:02:11
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:33:23
Hey Elroy (if that's your REAL name!!:)
There is a better sit to purchase Selegiline/Deprenyl. It's cheaper and only takes about a week to deliver AND it is a safe, reliable company. And the envelope please!
www.biogenesis.co.za.AND as far as the Theanine thanks for the heads-up in terms of finding a cheaper source!
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 23:20:43
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:33:23
this is SOOOOOO cute! I just couldn't keep it to myself. It's from an internet thingy called Life-Support. (I think #7 is especially amusing!)
World Citizen
>SYMPTOMS OF INNER PEACE
>
>How would you rate your level of "Inner Peace"? Enough to stay
>calm in a den of lions? Enough to get through a good day? Enough
>for the next five minutes, so long as everybody leaves you alone?
>
>You may need a good case of inner peace, a disease that could
>leave you stress-free and contented for years to come. A
>chiropractor named Jeff Rockwell composed a list he calls
>"Symptoms of Inner Peace." You may have already caught this
>disease! See how many of these symptoms you exhibit:
>
>1. A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from
>fears based on past experiences.
>
>2. An unmistakable ability to enjoy each moment.
>
>3. A loss of interest in judging self.
>
>4. A loss of interest in judging others.
>
>5. A loss of interest in conflict.
>
>6. A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others.
>
>7. A loss of ability to worry (this is a serious symptom).
>
>8. Frequent, overwhelming episodes of appreciation.
>
>9. Contented feelings of connectedness with others and nature.
>
>10. Frequent attacks of smiling through the eyes of the heart.
>
>11. Increasing susceptibility to love extended by others as well
>as the uncontrollable urge to extend it.
>
>12. An increasing tendency to let things happen.
>
>Inner peace is a communicable disease that could possibly infect
>your home or workplace. You may already be showing signs of it
>and quite possibly be passing it along to others! Rockwell warns:
>"If you have all or even most of the above symptoms, please be
>advised that your condition of PEACE may be so far advanced as to
>not be treatable."
>
>Have you caught it?
Posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 10:38:27
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 16, 2005, at 23:02:11
And "World Citizen" is???
Heh-heh-heh....
No problem with the better price site.
I've got a list of places I check with for supplement purchases. For general purposes, I check with VitaCost, VitaNet and iHerb. For more exotic stuff (though VitaNet may have it), I usualy check with 1Fast400 or Beyond A Century. For bulk stuff, usually 1fast400, SMI2LE, and Beyond a Century.
SMI2LE has some really good bulk prices but is having some business problems right now. Hope that things work out for him as I'd hate to see him fold. Nothing like good, strong competition!"Elroy"
P.S. I have recently heard about that outfit that you mentioned and they seemed very interesting but I didn't have any direct info on their reliability and credibility. Aren't they out of South Africa?
P.S. 2 Am going to hang in there for another week or two and give my psych doc a chance to prescribe this for me. With my insurance, I can get a three-month supply for a $20 co-pay with free shipping....
> Hey Elroy (if that's your REAL name!!:)
> There is a better sit to purchase Selegiline/Deprenyl. It's cheaper and only takes about a week to deliver AND it is a safe, reliable company. And the envelope please!
> www.biogenesis.co.za.
>
> AND as far as the Theanine thanks for the heads-up in terms of finding a cheaper source!
>
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:58
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 10:38:27
>
Okay, I looked up picamilone (WHATEVER the correct spelling is!) and it looks quite impressive. I've got a few questions for you. a) do you have any sites where this can be purchased WITHOUT exacerbating my already acute Financial Deficit Disorder? b)I already take a benzo to sleep (Atavan), my GABA receptors are going to be much more inclined to hold out for the benzo. Therefore, I conclude that I will need to titrate the dose i.e. ditch the benzo in order to take the unspellable substance mentioned above. So, MY question is what to I do about sleeping? Apparently taking higher doses of the picalilly :) will cause some CNS stimulation-WHATEVER! I've not gotten my Theanine yet, I ordered from that bulk vitamin place, opted to have it delivered US postal service (I thought they retired the Pony Express?), anyway it's not here so I'm going to order the Theanine Serine from the site you suggested. I think I'm just going to get some very concentrated valerian extract and take it with my melatonin, magnesium etc and see if that will help as I ,yet again, wean myself from one of the most addictive drugs known. SIGH!Oh yeah, the place in South Africa, according to my source, is reputable, reliable etc.
"World Citizen"
And "World Citizen" is???
>
> Heh-heh-heh....
>
> No problem with the better price site.
>
> I've got a list of places I check with for supplement purchases. For general purposes, I check with VitaCost, VitaNet and iHerb. For more exotic stuff (though VitaNet may have it), I usualy check with 1Fast400 or Beyond A Century. For bulk stuff, usually 1fast400, SMI2LE, and Beyond a Century.
> SMI2LE has some really good bulk prices but is having some business problems right now. Hope that things work out for him as I'd hate to see him fold. Nothing like good, strong competition!
>
> "Elroy"
>
> P.S. I have recently heard about that outfit that you mentioned and they seemed very interesting but I didn't have any direct info on their reliability and credibility. Aren't they out of South Africa?
>
> P.S. 2 Am going to hang in there for another week or two and give my psych doc a chance to prescribe this for me. With my insurance, I can get a three-month supply for a $20 co-pay with free shipping....
>
>
> > Hey Elroy (if that's your REAL name!!:)
> > There is a better sit to purchase Selegiline/Deprenyl. It's cheaper and only takes about a week to deliver AND it is a safe, reliable company. And the envelope please!
> > www.biogenesis.co.za.
> >
> > AND as far as the Theanine thanks for the heads-up in terms of finding a cheaper source!
> >
> > World Citizen
>
>
Posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 12:39:58
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:58
OK, you can get picamilon cheaply at a number of places at decent prices (and some at outrageous prices). SMI2LE is a very good priced store, but he is having some business problems right now and there could be a wait for your order.
http://www.smi2le.biz/Products.shtml
Some other very decent possibilities (and I'm talking bulk powder amounts in some cases here):
http://www.easycart.net/cgi-bin/BeyondACenturyInc./search.cgi
http://www.smart-nutrition.net/info-picamilon.htm
Also VG info on this page...http://www.biogenesis.co.za/pi-picamilone.asp
I put in my order thru BAC, but will probably order from SMI2LE when they get their act togetehr again....
BTW.... I am currently on Xanax XR. I plan on cutting my morning dose in half and taking reduced picamilon dosage in the AM and then take my regular Xanax XR dose in the PM. As I feel the Picamilon is working (as I see it, it is adding more GABA into the system rather than just maintianing the reduced levels that are there like the Ativan and Xanax do!), then I will reduce the PM dose for Xanax XR to 1/2 also, and add an early afternoon dose of Picamilon. After that I'll start weaning completely off the Xanax XR and replace it completely with the Picamilon.Elroy
P.S. Have you looked into Rhodiola Rscea at all? If you can find a copy of the book, would strongly recommend "The Rhodiola Revolution".
Posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 16:15:43
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 12:39:58
>
Hey Elroy. Have you already started using the picamilon? I don't remember if you indicated this or not in previous posts. I did notice that at SMI2LE that they have a theanie/picamilon combination that sounds very attractive to me. But as you stated (wrote) they are currently having minor technical difficulties so I guess I'll see if I can find that combination elsewhere.I must say I feel a considerable amount of trepidation at going of the benzo again. The last time I had the help (?) of Neurontin but it appears to have left it's mark on my liver (raised liver enzyems). I so resent not being able to sleep without assistance. I'm very physically active and when I don't sleep, or only sleep minimally, I feel utterly limited. There is a study here in Sacramento for patients with fibromyalgisa (that would be me) using GHB-talk about something for the GABA receptors! I'm going to call the # but don't feel particulary hopeful due to my elevated liver enzymes, though they are only minimally so. I'd beter conclude this, I'm fighting the urge to go autobiographical!
one wistful World Citizen
OK, you can get picamilon cheaply at a number of places at decent prices (and some at outrageous prices). SMI2LE is a very good priced store, but he is having some business problems right now and there could be a wait for your order.
>
> http://www.smi2le.biz/Products.shtml
>
> Some other very decent possibilities (and I'm talking bulk powder amounts in some cases here):
>
> http://www.easycart.net/cgi-bin/BeyondACenturyInc./search.cgi
>
> http://www.smart-nutrition.net/info-picamilon.htm
> Also VG info on this page...
>
> http://www.biogenesis.co.za/pi-picamilone.asp
>
> I put in my order thru BAC, but will probably order from SMI2LE when they get their act togetehr again....
>
>
> BTW.... I am currently on Xanax XR. I plan on cutting my morning dose in half and taking reduced picamilon dosage in the AM and then take my regular Xanax XR dose in the PM. As I feel the Picamilon is working (as I see it, it is adding more GABA into the system rather than just maintianing the reduced levels that are there like the Ativan and Xanax do!), then I will reduce the PM dose for Xanax XR to 1/2 also, and add an early afternoon dose of Picamilon. After that I'll start weaning completely off the Xanax XR and replace it completely with the Picamilon.
>
> Elroy
>
> P.S. Have you looked into Rhodiola Rscea at all? If you can find a copy of the book, would strongly recommend "The Rhodiola Revolution".
Posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 16:35:10
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 12:39:58
Hey, I don't know if you noticed this or not but there is a psycho-babble category "withdrawal".
I can already see the carpal-tunnel syndrome coming on!;)W.C.
Posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 19:10:54
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 10:38:27
Hey Elroy. I forgot to share with you a very important aspect of my mental health program. This is a book by Eckhart Tolle called "The Power of Now". I've just been through the most difficutlt year in my entire life and the information I utilized from this book, in addition to vitamin G, has not only preserved my sanity but has brought me to a level of awareness and emotional/spiritual maturity that I never imagined possible.
And another thing... If my posts were sounding progressively morbid that's because I scared myself thinking about my eventual weaning from the benzo. I've got a court thing going on (civil) and have NO intention of even cutting down until THAT is over, which should be in another month or two. Using the information in the book coupled with the power of faith I just talked myself out of a mounting anxiety attack!!!
Elroy, it sure is good to know that there is somebody else out there that's trying to deal with this crap!World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 19:30:34
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 16:15:43
Just got the Picamilon in today. Will start tomorrow.
Hey, seeing as how you have fibromyalgisa symptoms, I really think that you should check out the book "The Edge Effect" by that Dr. Braverman. On page 120 he lists fibromyalgisa as a specific response to a severe GABA deficiency. On his 1 to 10 scale, he rates that at the 7 range... 1 beinging the mildest and 10 being the worst.
In my case, I also suffer from neuropathic type pains (severe in the feet).
There's some speculation in my case that my highly elevated cortisol levels are damaging the nerve endings through the cortisol's toxicity. But maybe it's also from GABA deficiency - or just from GABA deficiency... I've got the high anxiety levels to corroborate the likely GABA deficiency.
Anyway, Dr. Braverman also lists neuropathy as a results of severe GABA deficiency, listing it also at 7 on that 1 to 10 scale!
I don't believe that there's any info that any of the particular supplements that we've been discussing will cause liver enzyme or functioning problems....
Nothing I've come across anyway.
Elroy
> >
> Hey Elroy. Have you already started using the picamilon? I don't remember if you indicated this or not in previous posts. I did notice that at SMI2LE that they have a theanie/picamilon combination that sounds very attractive to me. But as you stated (wrote) they are currently having minor technical difficulties so I guess I'll see if I can find that combination elsewhere.
>
> I must say I feel a considerable amount of trepidation at going of the benzo again. The last time I had the help (?) of Neurontin but it appears to have left it's mark on my liver (raised liver enzyems). I so resent not being able to sleep without assistance. I'm very physically active and when I don't sleep, or only sleep minimally, I feel utterly limited. There is a study here in Sacramento for patients with fibromyalgisa (that would be me) using GHB-talk about something for the GABA receptors! I'm going to call the # but don't feel particulary hopeful due to my elevated liver enzymes, though they are only minimally so. I'd beter conclude this, I'm fighting the urge to go autobiographical!
>
> one wistful World Citizen
>
>
> OK, you can get picamilon cheaply at a number of places at decent prices (and some at outrageous prices). SMI2LE is a very good priced store, but he is having some business problems right now and there could be a wait for your order.
> >
> > http://www.smi2le.biz/Products.shtml
> >
> > Some other very decent possibilities (and I'm talking bulk powder amounts in some cases here):
> >
> > http://www.easycart.net/cgi-bin/BeyondACenturyInc./search.cgi
> >
> > http://www.smart-nutrition.net/info-picamilon.htm
> > Also VG info on this page...
> >
> > http://www.biogenesis.co.za/pi-picamilone.asp
> >
> > I put in my order thru BAC, but will probably order from SMI2LE when they get their act togetehr again....
> >
> >
> > BTW.... I am currently on Xanax XR. I plan on cutting my morning dose in half and taking reduced picamilon dosage in the AM and then take my regular Xanax XR dose in the PM. As I feel the Picamilon is working (as I see it, it is adding more GABA into the system rather than just maintianing the reduced levels that are there like the Ativan and Xanax do!), then I will reduce the PM dose for Xanax XR to 1/2 also, and add an early afternoon dose of Picamilon. After that I'll start weaning completely off the Xanax XR and replace it completely with the Picamilon.
> >
> > Elroy
> >
> > P.S. Have you looked into Rhodiola Rscea at all? If you can find a copy of the book, would strongly recommend "The Rhodiola Revolution".
>
>
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 19:35:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 16:15:43
Not sure if I mentioned this possibility to you or not, but I started looking into Brain Wave Generators and Binaural Beat Brainwaves as erlates to anxiety, depression and pain control. In researching that and downloading some stuff, I came across some interesting information on a technology called "Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation".
While finding some interesting results with Brain Wave generator effects (Binaural Beat Brainwaves), am becoming more convinced that there's definitely something to the CES technology. CES is an FDA registered treatment modality that is FDA approved for anxiety, depression, and some types of chronic pain.
This is NOT to be confused with Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT), or with "Transcranial Magnetic Simulation" but is a completely different therapy from either of those.
See:
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Protocol/Introduction_A/MET
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Technology/Protocol/Introduction_A/ME
http://members.aol.com/bioelectric2002/website.htm
http://neurodynamicstrategies.com/ces.html
http://www.excel.net/%7Ejaguar/ces-info.html
http://www.drdebe.com/CRANIAL.htm
This particular following segment deals with pain therapy rather than anxiety or depression, but shows such a strong response that I felt it to be an excellent example. Remember, CES is technically approved by the FDA as treatment for "anxiety, depression, and insomnia", but more and more newer studies are researching it for pain relief purposes.
http://www.harborside.com/~aspenmed/page10.htm
QUOTE: Archives of Otolaryngology, 109(6):382-383, 1983... This is an early report of Alpha-Stim results on severe intractable cancer pain that failed to achieve relief with "heavy medication" and surgery conducted by the Division of Otolaryngology, Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, and the Veterans Administration Medical Center in Cleveland, Ohio. The author states that the 3 cases anecdotally presented are representative of similar cases treated by Alpha-Stim. without exception, in every case there was a positive effect in decreasing pain. Objectively, these patients could be followed up by the amount of pain medication they required... In case 1, a 58 year old man had squamous cell carcinoma of the laryngeopharynx staged at T4N2M0, full course radiation therapy and radical neck dissection. After failing to achieve pain relief with 7 mg of morphine sulfate every 4 hours along with various sedatives, he achieved complete relief without medication at all for one week following 3 daily, 10 minute Alpha-Stim treatments of 500 microamps at 0.5 Hz, and then was maintained pain free with Alpha-Stim treatments every 3 days for 1 minute. Case 2, a 54 year old man who also had a neck dissection and radiation for a T3NOMO lesion of the larynx, and a primary squamous cell tumor of the left lung, required a combination of codeine, zomepirac sodium (Zomax), and amitriptyline hydrochloride (Elavil), which provided little relief. After 6 minutes of Alpha-Stim treatment he had complete relief of pain for 50 hours, after which further treatment caused the pain to disappear again. Case 3 was a 59 year old man who had a T4N1MO squamous cell carcinoma of the base of the tongue and supraglottis. Codeine and meperidine failed to completely control his severe pain radiating to both ears. The pain was completely relieved for 8 hours after 12 minutes of Alpha-Stim treatment. The second treatment pain relief lasted 24 hours. The author noted that the longevity of the results was especially encouraging. In every case pain relief lasted at least 8 hours, and in case 2, the effect lasted more than 3 weeks. There was no indication of side effects, and usually there was no sensation of the electrical stimulus. The positive results are unquestionable, and this form of electrical stimulation should not be confused with TENS.
http://darwinpharmacy.com/ref-anxiety-008/anxiety-008-research-abs3.99.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieveids=11455071&dopt=Abstract>;
http://www.alpha-stim.com/Information/Products/Educational/CES_Excerpt/Chapter_9/chapter_9.html
In the book "The Edge Effect", Dr. Eric Braverman discussed brain enhancers and specifically brain neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine, etc.). Overall a very good book - and it answered a lot of lingering questions that I had. Would strongly, strongly recommend the reading of this book!
What I found very interesting was that Dr. Braverman mentions the CES technology three different times in his book (all in a very positive vein) and apparently uses it in his own private practice also.
http://www.edgeeffect.org/cranial_electrical_stimulation.htm
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 20:06:09
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 17, 2005, at 19:10:54
How very interesting. My stressful period started about mid 90s with increased (ethical) problems at workplace and a whistleblower situation (yours truly) by late 90s. Ended up forced to take a disability retirment under extreme pressure. Filed a civil suit a couple years later but ended up having the court dismiss it last year - about two months before my second round of severe anxiety and depression really exploded (my first round started about a year after I filed the lawsuit and right in the middle of all the depositions, etc.). The actual "trigger" of the current event was a, well, family loss, but I've always felt that there was some delayed reaction to the civil case loss also.
Oh well. I know that for a few months there that everything was fine, what, about 4 months? There's where I want to get back to!
>
>
> Hey Elroy. I forgot to share with you a very important aspect of my mental health program. This is a book by Eckhart Tolle called "The Power of Now". I've just been through the most difficutlt year in my entire life and the information I utilized from this book, in addition to vitamin G, has not only preserved my sanity but has brought me to a level of awareness and emotional/spiritual maturity that I never imagined possible.
>
> And another thing... If my posts were sounding progressively morbid that's because I scared myself thinking about my eventual weaning from the benzo. I've got a court thing going on (civil) and have NO intention of even cutting down until THAT is over, which should be in another month or two. Using the information in the book coupled with the power of faith I just talked myself out of a mounting anxiety attack!!!
> Elroy, it sure is good to know that there is somebody else out there that's trying to deal with this crap!
>
> World Citizen
>
Posted by world citizen on February 18, 2005, at 20:54:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 19:30:34
Elroy! Elroy! Elroy!!!!If you suffer from Neuropathy according to my research the only substance than can REALLY affect it
(some sources say REVERSE it) is DHEA. DHEA counters cortisol in the body, which I'm sure you're aware, wreaks havoc on the body systems as it's part of the adrenaline chain. AND it is good for the mood-some sources say it successfully treats depression. If you feel inclined (after you exhaustively research it, as appears to be your way) you might want to start at 25-50 mgs. It would be ideal if you could get your MD to do a test (I don't remember if blood or saliva test is best) to find out where your levels are. From what I've read, after age 25, DHEA levels start to decline. Oh yeah, it's extremely good for the immune system!!!!!!!!!!!! The other thing, if you start taking it, some caution is advised as it might make you more "feisty" than you are accustomed to. NATROL carries a good one that has a good price too!I'm glad to hear that there is some one else out there has a sense of justice! My son and I were offered a settlement not long ago. I found it unacceptable on several levels, the main one being I wanted the "defendant" to suffer consequences for his (in)action. (I unknowingly lived in an apartment with toxic mold in it for 5!!!! years. The owner is an attorney that works directly under our "esteemed" govenor.)
And another thing!!!!!! I tried TMG (trimethyglycine)!!! This stuff is great!!! I took 500 mgs in the morning, 250 mgs in the late afternoon. Now I'm up to 6 miles a day, in terms of aerobic walking!! I would HIGHLY advise you to research THIS stuff. AND I ordered 2 bottles of Theanine Serene from iHERB in addition to some American Ginseng (which is very good for the adrenals Mr-Running-On-Cortisol!
World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 23:00:40
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 18, 2005, at 20:54:56
Just started TMG this last week. Am still building dosages up. Just about to where you are at. Haven't really noticed anything yet. I used samE for a while there and did seem to notice a difference. And then recently read that TMG not only accomplished the same thing but was safer and cheaper. So figure I'll give it a more prolonged try.
My DHEA levels were recently tested and weren't terribly bad. Within a lab reference range of 18.0 to 319.0 mine were at 139.6. Still was less than 50% level. Assuming that they would be better off at the "top third" level, so around 210 to 300 range, I figured that I probably should be supplementing??? I'm just surprised that the level wasn't even lower, what with the high cortisol levels (back in Sept/Oct my cortisol levels were 5 to 6 times the maximum normal range).
Question... do you think that the 7-keto-DHEA version would be just as effective as the regular DHEA? Being on testosterone replacment therapy already (yes, it started back in June along with all of this other business), I would prefer to steer away from the androgenic effects of regular DHEA as I could develop a problem with excessive conversion to estrogen. That would throw my TRT program horribly and terribly out of balance.
http://www.1fast400.com/?ingredients_id=69
I do believe that the cortisol problem - with me - is one of the central keys. I do think that the extreme anxiety initially suffered (in this most recent bout) caused the really high cortisol levels (and not the opposite), but I also believe that the HPA Axis has gotten "stuck" in a broken position and needs to somehow get re-set - otherwise none of the anti0anxiety or AD supps are going to work completely effectively!
>
> Elroy! Elroy! Elroy!!!!
>
> If you suffer from Neuropathy according to my research the only substance than can REALLY affect it
> (some sources say REVERSE it) is DHEA. DHEA counters cortisol in the body, which I'm sure you're aware, wreaks havoc on the body systems as it's part of the adrenaline chain. AND it is good for the mood-some sources say it successfully treats depression. If you feel inclined (after you exhaustively research it, as appears to be your way) you might want to start at 25-50 mgs. It would be ideal if you could get your MD to do a test (I don't remember if blood or saliva test is best) to find out where your levels are. From what I've read, after age 25, DHEA levels start to decline. Oh yeah, it's extremely good for the immune system!!!!!!!!!!!! The other thing, if you start taking it, some caution is advised as it might make you more "feisty" than you are accustomed to. NATROL carries a good one that has a good price too!
>
> I'm glad to hear that there is some one else out there has a sense of justice! My son and I were offered a settlement not long ago. I found it unacceptable on several levels, the main one being I wanted the "defendant" to suffer consequences for his (in)action. (I unknowingly lived in an apartment with toxic mold in it for 5!!!! years. The owner is an attorney that works directly under our "esteemed" govenor.)
>
> And another thing!!!!!! I tried TMG (trimethyglycine)!!! This stuff is great!!! I took 500 mgs in the morning, 250 mgs in the late afternoon. Now I'm up to 6 miles a day, in terms of aerobic walking!! I would HIGHLY advise you to research THIS stuff. AND I ordered 2 bottles of Theanine Serene from iHERB in addition to some American Ginseng (which is very good for the adrenals Mr-Running-On-Cortisol!
>
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 18, 2005, at 23:13:11
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 20:06:09
Elroy, in my haste to tell you about DHEA I neglected to tell you how sorry I am that things have been so hard for you. I must say, you seem to be handling it with courage! I don't know where I read it but it goes something like this: courage means feeling the fear and doing the righteous thing anyway.
Incidently, I'm looking forward (not!) to the 5th volume of MY deposition. It's been over a year since they first started them 01/15/04. I can only think that they've thought that I'd just give up. Though the truth probably lies more in the realm of the attornies just getting a lot of milage ($) out of the case. Whatever. I'm not afraid of it anymore. I realized my job is just to tell the truth and to be as sincere as possible. The outcome I will accept as the Will of God. Now, lest you get the wrong impression of me, I'll tell you that sometimes God ordains that "things contrary to (our) wishes should occur". I've grown SOOOOOOO much by staring down my own fears as a result of this! Though it has been a rough ride!!!!!!!!!!
World Citizen
> How very interesting. My stressful period started about mid 90s with increased (ethical) problems at workplace and a whistleblower situation (yours truly) by late 90s. Ended up forced to take a disability retirment under extreme pressure. Filed a civil suit a couple years later but ended up having the court dismiss it last year - about two months before my second round of severe anxiety and depression really exploded (my first round started about a year after I filed the lawsuit and right in the middle of all the depositions, etc.). The actual "trigger" of the current event was a, well, family loss, but I've always felt that there was some delayed reaction to the civil case loss also.
>
> Oh well. I know that for a few months there that everything was fine, what, about 4 months? There's where I want to get back to!
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hey Elroy. I forgot to share with you a very important aspect of my mental health program. This is a book by Eckhart Tolle called "The Power of Now". I've just been through the most difficutlt year in my entire life and the information I utilized from this book, in addition to vitamin G, has not only preserved my sanity but has brought me to a level of awareness and emotional/spiritual maturity that I never imagined possible.
> >
> > And another thing... If my posts were sounding progressively morbid that's because I scared myself thinking about my eventual weaning from the benzo. I've got a court thing going on (civil) and have NO intention of even cutting down until THAT is over, which should be in another month or two. Using the information in the book coupled with the power of faith I just talked myself out of a mounting anxiety attack!!!
> > Elroy, it sure is good to know that there is somebody else out there that's trying to deal with this crap!
> >
> > World Citizen
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on February 18, 2005, at 23:38:23
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 23:00:40
>
Hey, 2 things come to my mind in response to your post. First, do you have an endocrinologist? It seems to me that the DHEA would help, but if you've got some sort of endocrine condition I think you should consult with them. I believe your anxiety is at LEAST as valid as whatever other conditions you've got going on. I've tried the 7-KETO stuff and it totally wired me up and made it so that when I got hungry I got SERIOUSLY hungry. I mean the CAT FOOD was starting to look good, and it was the DRY stuff!!!
Are you consuming soy products? Soy is VERY estrogenic.
Secondly, I would thoroughly suggest you find a GOOD accupuncurist. Some people think if they can't understand how a thing works that there is no scientific basis to it. Let's put it this way, the State of California allows Acupuncture for certain medical problems. I see mine because of pain. I'm thinking about neuralgia+acupuncture=Elroy feels much better!!!!!! I hope your insurance covers it and I hope you can find a good one (they're like MDs, just because they have a license to practice doesn't mean they were A students!!!) AND I hope you're open to the possibity that this could help. They even have meridian thingies for stress etc. I'll put it this way Elroy, if I get a sufficient amount of money out of this "case" I intend to give my acupuncturist an agreed upon retainer so I can go in and see her whenever I need to and won't have to jump through any Medi-Cal hoops!!!!!AND I just got verification from iHERB they are sending my stuff! YIPPEEEE! (No, I'm not wired up I just tend to be very enthusiastic!)
World Citizen
Just started TMG this last week. Am still building dosages up. Just about to where you are at. Haven't really noticed anything yet. I used samE for a while there and did seem to notice a difference. And then recently read that TMG not only accomplished the same thing but was safer and cheaper. So figure I'll give it a more prolonged try.
>
> My DHEA levels were recently tested and weren't terribly bad. Within a lab reference range of 18.0 to 319.0 mine were at 139.6. Still was less than 50% level. Assuming that they would be better off at the "top third" level, so around 210 to 300 range, I figured that I probably should be supplementing??? I'm just surprised that the level wasn't even lower, what with the high cortisol levels (back in Sept/Oct my cortisol levels were 5 to 6 times the maximum normal range).
>
> Question... do you think that the 7-keto-DHEA version would be just as effective as the regular DHEA? Being on testosterone replacment therapy already (yes, it started back in June along with all of this other business), I would prefer to steer away from the androgenic effects of regular DHEA as I could develop a problem with excessive conversion to estrogen. That would throw my TRT program horribly and terribly out of balance.
>
> http://www.1fast400.com/?ingredients_id=69
>
> I do believe that the cortisol problem - with me - is one of the central keys. I do think that the extreme anxiety initially suffered (in this most recent bout) caused the really high cortisol levels (and not the opposite), but I also believe that the HPA Axis has gotten "stuck" in a broken position and needs to somehow get re-set - otherwise none of the anti0anxiety or AD supps are going to work completely effectively!
>
>
>
>
Posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 23:00:40
Elroy I think my computer is getting suspicious!!!(tee-hee:)
(And now back to our lead story where K, I mean World Citizen attempts to facilitate the alleviation of some of Elroys' discomfort. World Citizen is sincere yet slightly impaired due to her old nemesis/friend Atavan)
Elroy I've been clicking keys and pointing cursors till I've come upon some potential alternatives for the DHEA-at least in terms of the neuropathy. By the way is it Diabetic Neuropathy? If it is then both alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine are supposed to be very effective for it. The one site I have for you is lifeextensionvitamins.com.
I usually shy away from getting information from the very place that would like to sell me the item, BUT this seems very thorough and dignified.I find it very interesting, nay even synchronistic that you began taking the TMG just a week ago.
You know when I first moved here to this apartment I was never so scared in my life. I had never lived alone before. I'd raised my 2 sons was trying to finish my 20 year degree. (that would seem to require the entire alphabet to tag along after my name). Actually, I stopped going to school when my sons were 2 and 4, it was clear that they needed me and I needed to be the best mom I could be. Short story stretched out to unimaginable lengths-NO that's not what I was going to say! Long story short (much better) I waited until my pain was under control (THAT'S another thing about DLPA it obliberates chronic pain by doing something horrid to the enzyme that would attempt to neutralize my lovely little endorphins) and my sons had both reached the age of maturity. I deliberately moved to that apartment because it was SOOO close to school, only 4 blocks away. I kept trying and things kept getting weirder. Finally in JUne of 02 I had to quit my job, I didn't know what was wrong I just had a constant sense of forboding. That summer was REALLY hot and I had NO airconditioner (on the 2nd floor I might add!) and all the little mold spores were doing their little microscopic dances in the air. I really thought I was losing my mind. I would wake up gasping like I had apnea or something-NOOOO the Sleep Clinic said I had Night Terrors. Such a gentle was to awaken!!! I started having panic attacks-I felt like there was not enough air anywhere. I had thought all along that my symtoms were actually side-effects of the klonopin I was taking at the time. So this "brilliant" neurologist puts me on Halcion! I went from a long acting benzo to one of the shortest acting ones. This did not improve matters (caution understatement in progress!) as I went through 2 weeks of bezo withdrawal AND having my head F***ed with from the mold (stachybotrys, to be more precise). I ended going over to the park around 3 or 4 am to try to sleep most nights There is a HUGE redwood tree over there and after I'd do my walking around the park in the daytime I would just sit next to the tree and cry, pray and sing. I became familiar to a hawk that lived nearby. I spent so much time over there trying to understand why God was allowing me to lose my mind that I witnessed the hawks young as they fledged. I don't mean to burden you (or whoever else reads this)but I'm going to have to talk about all this at the impending deposition finale. I had to move out in 01/03 because the stuff made me so sick the MD told me to get out. So I did. For the next eight months I stayed with my dearly loved Bahai friends (or theirfamily) I lived in four different locaions during this time. Lost my all-time favorite cat. And then by the Grace of God I found a home in the apartment I'm currently residing-it's been a year and a half!!! The thing is I've finally learned to live alone. I had my sons when I was very young and their dad (Vietnam vet) wasn't there at all for them. I faced the scariest thing in my entire life in the last year. I've had to face my abadonment issues. I've had to let go of erroneous beliefs about who I am and those beliefs weren't too happy about being evicted-they fought back and they're MEAN!!
I'm hoping there is something like World Citizens'life part 2. Where I get to finally get to own my personal power and not be afraid of it.
That's it I just ran out of stuff to say. Lucky YOU!
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 12:35:43
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 23:00:40
Hey Elroy. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of the existence of DMSO. This stuff is incredible for stopping pain AND SO MUCH MORE!They have some information on it at the Memorial Sloan Cancer Center WWW.mskcc.org. They make reference to it aleviating neuropathic pain. My son just recently bought a gallon of the stuff, I wasn't aware that it could be purchased over the (e)counter. They have it at eVitamins. I'm not aware of the purity, I've emailed them and made this very observation to them. If the stuff is capable of being absorbed right through the skin (not that WE would use it for that purpose!) then I don't feel it's very responsible on their part to omit that crucial bit of information. At any rate, if this seems like something you'd like to try I think the place my son got his sells it in smaller quantities. I'm exceedingly happy with it. I don't find it leaves a garlic taste in my mouth at all!
WC
Posted by Elroy on February 19, 2005, at 14:05:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 18, 2005, at 23:38:23
Yes, I have an endocrinologist but he is concerned only with tracking my cortisol levels to see if I get to the Cushing's state at some point (he doesn't believe so based upon the way the test results have been going). That, and writing scripts for my TRT therapy (AndroGel). If I need other things tested, like DHEA or estrogen levels, I pretty much have to beg him for them as he seems to be clueless as to why I would want those things tested. And this guy works for a major metropolitan clinic. Of course he is prety much a Cushings type of specialist so that may account for a lot of it also.
I'm thinking seriously about giving the 7-keto a try. I have frequent daytime fatigue and lack of motivation (some of which may be getting caused by the Xanax?) and if the 7-keto could counter that, help knock back the cortisol, and have a positive effect on the neuropathy, well, that would be heaven sent! Right now am using Rhodiola Roscea (a Russian herbal), PS, and Relora (magnolia extract) as my primary anti-cortisol compounds, with some limited effectiveness. Actually, right now I have cut out my anti-cortisol supps as I have cortisol level testings with my endo next week and he likes them done "clean" so he has a better idea of what the body is doing "on its own".
No, I have cut my soy consumption out almost completely. I'm sure when we got out to eat I get some soy-based products here and there (since it's in salad dressing and various things), but consumption is very, very minimal. I also take zinc and the product DIIM to keep estrogen conversion under control (my last test results showed estrogen levels to be doing decently).
Haven't really looked into accupuncture as (A) my insurance won't cover it and (B) haven't found one in my NE Ohio area who stood out as being "the real deal". I have experimented some with EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) which works on some of the same concepts as accupuncture (energy meridians, etc.).
> >
> Hey, 2 things come to my mind in response to your post. First, do you have an endocrinologist? It seems to me that the DHEA would help, but if you've got some sort of endocrine condition I think you should consult with them. I believe your anxiety is at LEAST as valid as whatever other conditions you've got going on. I've tried the 7-KETO stuff and it totally wired me up and made it so that when I got hungry I got SERIOUSLY hungry. I mean the CAT FOOD was starting to look good, and it was the DRY stuff!!!
> Are you consuming soy products? Soy is VERY estrogenic.
> Secondly, I would thoroughly suggest you find a GOOD accupuncurist. Some people think if they can't understand how a thing works that there is no scientific basis to it. Let's put it this way, the State of California allows Acupuncture for certain medical problems. I see mine because of pain. I'm thinking about neuralgia+acupuncture=Elroy feels much better!!!!!! I hope your insurance covers it and I hope you can find a good one (they're like MDs, just because they have a license to practice doesn't mean they were A students!!!) AND I hope you're open to the possibity that this could help. They even have meridian thingies for stress etc. I'll put it this way Elroy, if I get a sufficient amount of money out of this "case" I intend to give my acupuncturist an agreed upon retainer so I can go in and see her whenever I need to and won't have to jump through any Medi-Cal hoops!!!!!
>
> AND I just got verification from iHERB they are sending my stuff! YIPPEEEE! (No, I'm not wired up I just tend to be very enthusiastic!)
> World Citizen
>
>
> Just started TMG this last week. Am still building dosages up. Just about to where you are at. Haven't really noticed anything yet. I used samE for a while there and did seem to notice a difference. And then recently read that TMG not only accomplished the same thing but was safer and cheaper. So figure I'll give it a more prolonged try.
> >
> > My DHEA levels were recently tested and weren't terribly bad. Within a lab reference range of 18.0 to 319.0 mine were at 139.6. Still was less than 50% level. Assuming that they would be better off at the "top third" level, so around 210 to 300 range, I figured that I probably should be supplementing??? I'm just surprised that the level wasn't even lower, what with the high cortisol levels (back in Sept/Oct my cortisol levels were 5 to 6 times the maximum normal range).
> >
> > Question... do you think that the 7-keto-DHEA version would be just as effective as the regular DHEA? Being on testosterone replacment therapy already (yes, it started back in June along with all of this other business), I would prefer to steer away from the androgenic effects of regular DHEA as I could develop a problem with excessive conversion to estrogen. That would throw my TRT program horribly and terribly out of balance.
> >
> > http://www.1fast400.com/?ingredients_id=69
> >
> > I do believe that the cortisol problem - with me - is one of the central keys. I do think that the extreme anxiety initially suffered (in this most recent bout) caused the really high cortisol levels (and not the opposite), but I also believe that the HPA Axis has gotten "stuck" in a broken position and needs to somehow get re-set - otherwise none of the anti0anxiety or AD supps are going to work completely effectively!
> >
> >
> >
> >
Posted by Elroy on February 19, 2005, at 15:47:33
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
No, it's not a diabetic neuropathy. One doctor early last year felt that it was an alcohol related neuropathy, but my current endo disputed that in that I had pretty much quit drinking by 2000 and the symptoms didn't start for a couple years after that. My fasting blood sugars have been on the high side of normal and slightly above normal (105, 107, 117) but also more recently dropped down to the high normal range again. Seems to fluctuate along with the levels of cortisol.
In fact, they're simply not sure exactly what it is. It's very similar to neuropathy as it affects the feet and hands (much much more primarily the feet). But aso doesn't seem to fit the standard profiles for neuropathy.
WebMd says:
#1 A tingling sensation in the toes or in the balls of the feet that eventually spreads up the legs toward the trunk. Less commonly, the sensation may begin in the hands and spread up the arms.
#2 Numbness in the hands and feet that spreads up the arms and legs.
#3 Weakness or heaviness in muscles throughout the body. This may be accompanied by cramping, especially in the feet, legs, and hands.
#4 Sensitive skin that may be painful to the touch. Prickling, burning, tingling, or sharp stabbing sensations may occur spontaneously and usually worsen at night.
#5 A foot-drop walking gait and/or problems with balance or coordination.I have parts of number one - only it was a burning / stinging type of pain accompanied by extreely cold feeling "inside the feet" (note: I had the "extremely cold feet" feeling or the previous two winters when I had my first milder bout with anxiety)... no spreading up the legs towards the torso.
Number two: nothing at all, absolutely no numbness. Either noticeable pain or mild pain.
Number three: no, none of this at all.
Number four: only partly - definitely have the Prickling, burning, tingling sensations, but none of the sensitivity nor does it worsen at night... in fact if any thing it gets slightly better at night and I can sleep okay with it.
Number five: no, noe of that either.
Some info tht I found on DMSO - am still looking for something specifically tying it in to neuropathy...
QUOTE: DMSO, although not approved by the FDA for anything except an unusual bladder condition (interstitial cystitis), is widely used in sports medicine. Professional sports in particular use DMSO to get their athletes recovered from injury and back on the playing field. Each team knows the competition will use it, and this would mean a tremendous advantage for the other team, if it were to be ignored. Combine that with the fact that DMSO is as safe as it is effective (unlike large-dose steroid injections, which were once commonly used in professional sports) and its use becomes mandatory in professional sports medicine. Only medical grade - never industrial grade - should be used on the human body due to the acetone and acid contaminants present in the industrial grade product. END QUOTE
> Elroy I think my computer is getting suspicious!!!(tee-hee:)
>
> (And now back to our lead story where K, I mean World Citizen attempts to facilitate the alleviation of some of Elroys' discomfort. World Citizen is sincere yet slightly impaired due to her old nemesis/friend Atavan)
> Elroy I've been clicking keys and pointing cursors till I've come upon some potential alternatives for the DHEA-at least in terms of the neuropathy. By the way is it Diabetic Neuropathy? If it is then both alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine are supposed to be very effective for it. The one site I have for you is lifeextensionvitamins.com.
> I usually shy away from getting information from the very place that would like to sell me the item, BUT this seems very thorough and dignified.
>
> I find it very interesting, nay even synchronistic that you began taking the TMG just a week ago.
>
> You know when I first moved here to this apartment I was never so scared in my life. I had never lived alone before. I'd raised my 2 sons was trying to finish my 20 year degree. (that would seem to require the entire alphabet to tag along after my name). Actually, I stopped going to school when my sons were 2 and 4, it was clear that they needed me and I needed to be the best mom I could be. Short story stretched out to unimaginable lengths-NO that's not what I was going to say! Long story short (much better) I waited until my pain was under control (THAT'S another thing about DLPA it obliberates chronic pain by doing something horrid to the enzyme that would attempt to neutralize my lovely little endorphins) and my sons had both reached the age of maturity. I deliberately moved to that apartment because it was SOOO close to school, only 4 blocks away. I kept trying and things kept getting weirder. Finally in JUne of 02 I had to quit my job, I didn't know what was wrong I just had a constant sense of forboding. That summer was REALLY hot and I had NO airconditioner (on the 2nd floor I might add!) and all the little mold spores were doing their little microscopic dances in the air. I really thought I was losing my mind. I would wake up gasping like I had apnea or something-NOOOO the Sleep Clinic said I had Night Terrors. Such a gentle was to awaken!!! I started having panic attacks-I felt like there was not enough air anywhere. I had thought all along that my symtoms were actually side-effects of the klonopin I was taking at the time. So this "brilliant" neurologist puts me on Halcion! I went from a long acting benzo to one of the shortest acting ones. This did not improve matters (caution understatement in progress!) as I went through 2 weeks of bezo withdrawal AND having my head F***ed with from the mold (stachybotrys, to be more precise). I ended going over to the park around 3 or 4 am to try to sleep most nights There is a HUGE redwood tree over there and after I'd do my walking around the park in the daytime I would just sit next to the tree and cry, pray and sing. I became familiar to a hawk that lived nearby. I spent so much time over there trying to understand why God was allowing me to lose my mind that I witnessed the hawks young as they fledged. I don't mean to burden you (or whoever else reads this)but I'm going to have to talk about all this at the impending deposition finale. I had to move out in 01/03 because the stuff made me so sick the MD told me to get out. So I did. For the next eight months I stayed with my dearly loved Bahai friends (or theirfamily) I lived in four different locaions during this time. Lost my all-time favorite cat. And then by the Grace of God I found a home in the apartment I'm currently residing-it's been a year and a half!!! The thing is I've finally learned to live alone. I had my sons when I was very young and their dad (Vietnam vet) wasn't there at all for them. I faced the scariest thing in my entire life in the last year. I've had to face my abadonment issues. I've had to let go of erroneous beliefs about who I am and those beliefs weren't too happy about being evicted-they fought back and they're MEAN!!
>
> I'm hoping there is something like World Citizens'life part 2. Where I get to finally get to own my personal power and not be afraid of it.
>
> That's it I just ran out of stuff to say. Lucky YOU!
> World Citizen
>
Posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 17:40:37
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 19, 2005, at 15:47:33
Sloan-Kettering - About Herbs, Botanicals & Other Products: Search ...
... Small scale studies conducted in the early 1980’s suggested DMSO may help to relieve
peripheral neuropathy (1) , post-thoracotomy pain and other non ...
www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/ 11571.cfm?RecordID=560&tab=HC - 81k - Cached - Similar pages
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