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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2004, at 2:32:31
In reply to I thought I said others have said... blah blah, posted by crushedout on June 28, 2004, at 16:57:44
You know what? You are right. I was just going on what Dr. Bob had cut and pasted from your post. When i went back to your original post, I found this:
>>...I mean, other than "helping" people who keep making clear that your "help" is hurtful to them?
So you are correct. You DID say that it was coming from others that they were hurt. To me, that is not uncivil, you are summarizing what was on the thread.
Sorry for not checking things out before posting. Although I was trying to agree with you and the others. Oops. I'll go to the original source first next time.
Thanks,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2004, at 2:38:21
In reply to Re: Ok. I get the civility guideline in effect now. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2004, at 21:28:51
Dinah,
Thanks for listening to me vent. It was this statement in your post that I related to:>>...or if the would be clinician can just speculate on a poster's diagnosis.
And thanks for the reassurance about it not being personal. It does feel that way. But that is part of my sensitivity. :)
And of course I don't agree that hurt if okay as long as it is clinical. Ugh, imagine what therapy would be like (and unfortunately, probably is sometimes with some T's.)
You know, at times like this, I tend to have the Serenity Prayer pop into my head. Definitely need to work on the wisdom part for me. Seems like you are doing a good job with that. :)
take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 6:02:59
In reply to Re: Ok. I get the civility guideline in effect now. » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2004, at 2:38:21
Oh, sorry, the would be clinician certainly didn't refer to you, it referred posters x and y. :)
For some reason I can't fathom, yet will probably need to work on in therapy, knowing the precise rules, even if they cause me pain, is somehow comforting. In case that was true of anyone else, I just wanted to share.
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 6:04:34
In reply to Re: Alrighty, then!!, posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 0:07:23
I'm sorry if my use of X and Y caused anyone to believe I was speaking of them. I certainly didn't mean you. I actually am not sure why I can't just say their names since Dr. Bob has ruled that they are not uncivil. If it's ok with Bob, I will.
Posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 11:22:17
In reply to Re: Alrighty, then!! » shadows721, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 6:04:34
Oh, no, I thought your analygy was awesome. I think that was very thoughtful. Personally, I feel that I am the one that still remains ignorant.
I mean if someone went on some medicine support board and did a topic like this DIRECTLY. It would look sorta like this (REMEMBER, THIS IS ONLY ANALOGY)......
You know what people? All your meds will not make you any better. I know this for a fact, because I did that med trip for years. In fact, all your meds will make you worse. I can tell from your posts that these meds aren't helping you anyway. Oh, by the way, you guys dx with Z, you are fakers. You are just upping business of med reps. Yeah, to you guys with dx Z, I would like to see a movie on one of you for the fun of it. I saw someone dx with Z in the hosp once and you didn't look real to me. Ha Ha. Oh, and to the faker talking about your pain, I don't understand what you are saying Man? Help??? Hey, fakers, look at these websites about you. Oh, a long time ago, I went to some big seminar and this expert on you guys said your symptoms are as real as snow on the Sun. Of course, you people with dx Z get worse with tx. He He. Oh, to the Dude that told me what I was doing was wrong, well I was done anyway. Now, everyone listen to me. You have to stop talking and you can't talk anymore about this topic, because I am done dudes. Ha Ha. Later people. Thanks for being so nice. I have enjoyed this. Ha Ha.
Of course, this doesn't look like a clinical debate and a direct attack. Dr. Bob would have intervened immediately on this person. But can't one say the same thing indirectly? As I said in a post way up the line here, indirect attacks are just as hurtful as direct to me. I don't have thick skin and never did.
I do feel someone giving these types of messages indirectly or directly should have gotten a warning. But, I am the one that still remains in the dark. I am really sorry that anyone has to be subjected to this type of abuse directly or indirectly. I feel there is always an aftermath from abuse.
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 15:41:41
In reply to Indirect messages are as hurtful to me., posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 11:22:17
I agree with you entirely. However, I fear we've hit a brick wall here and pounding our heads on it further will only hurt *us*. At least I have found that true in the past when Dr. Bob has decided on a viewpoint.
I don't understand this one *at all*, and I can only imagine that it is a result of some professional blindness (as a most charitable conclusion) on Dr. Bob's part. Perhaps he's so used to sitting around with other professionals and discussing clients impersonally that he isn't able to grasp the difference between a clinical discussion among peers and the same discussion among non-professionals on a site that *we* at least feel is primarily for support. Or perhaps Dr. Bob's view of Babble is a bit different from ours, and the supportive nature of Psychological Babble is a bit different than his vision of what it should be. Maybe he envisions it more along the lines of the medication board? And doesn't understand the difference between medication and chemical compositions and side effects and the therapy board and relationships and philosophy.
All of which is just speculation as I try to make Dr. Bob's stance palatable enough for me to be able to continue to post.
Posted by crushedout on June 29, 2004, at 16:52:28
In reply to Re: I thought I said others have said... blah blah » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2004, at 2:32:31
You're entirely forgiven, gg. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm glad my memory served me well. And this whole thing is so infuriating, I could scream.
Posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 17:14:36
In reply to Re: I thought I said others have said... blah blah » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on June 29, 2004, at 16:52:28
I can truly understand your feelings crushedout. I mean that.
Posted by tabitha on June 29, 2004, at 23:42:21
In reply to Indirect messages are as hurtful to me., posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 11:22:17
> You know what people? All your meds will not make you any better. I know this for a fact, because I did that med trip for years. In fact, all your meds will make you worse. ...
Wow, what a tidy summary of the message you're hearing. I tried to think of what I'm hearing. Of course this is just my filter, and may not be the message that anyone is intending to send at all. It probably shows a lot more about me than about anyone else, but here's how it goes:
'Hi everyone, I'm new here. I had some really bad experiences with therapy. It didn't help me at all, then I got some meds and I'm so much better. I'm really mad at those therapists for not helping me and not giving me the meds I needed. I don't like feeling helpless and hurt by therapists. Feeling hurt is scary-- it feels better to be mad at them. Here are a whole bunch of websites about how therapists are frauds and don't know what they're talking about. I feel better and better the more I can find reasons to look down on those therapists who didn't give me the help I needed. I'd feel even better if I could get some more people to agree with me and help me stay mad at therapists. Maybe I can even help other people avoid getting hurt by therapists. Yeah, that's what I'll do!
... Hey, what's happening here on this website? Why doesn't anyone appreciate my efforts to protect them from being hurt the way I was? Somebody said *I* was the one hurting people. That is so unfair, I'm just trying to help! I get really hurt and mad when I'm mistrusted and misunderstood like that. It's scary to tell people I'm hurt and mad, so I won't. It feels better to turn the tables on them and show them how I feel by saying things to try and make them feel the same way.
... And why do these people keep asking me about my feelings? They sound just like those therapists! No way am I going to tell these people about my feelings. When people ask about your feelings they are just trying to take advantage of you or confuse you or trick you. I'm not falling for that one. Besides, I don't need to think about my feelings. It's more important to use logical reasoning anyway. Wow, these people really aren't very scientific are they? They are talking gobbeldegook just like those therapists. I don't understand a bit of it.
... I don't understand why this didn't go the way I wanted it to. Oh well, at least arguing with these people gives me energy and keeps me from thinking about other things that don't feel good in my life right now.'
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 23:46:30
In reply to Re: Indirect messages, posted by tabitha on June 29, 2004, at 23:42:21
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:12:11
In reply to Re: Indirect messages, posted by tabitha on June 29, 2004, at 23:42:21
But...
If I were to name myself Flame, and enter a website proclaiming that I had been attacked at other websites for saying XXXXX, and took the time to look up a subject that I had absolutely no familiarity with but that another poster had expressed vulnerability to, I don't think that bewilderment would be my first response at posters' anger or expressed hurt to my saying XXXXX, YYYYYY, or even ZZZZZ. And even if I were bewildered or surprised, I'd kind of catch on when a whole lot of posters register pain at my words.
Perhaps without a lot of therapy those things aren't intuitively obvious, but I dunno....
Or maybe I'm just a cynic.
It really is kind of you to look at it that way, though, Tabitha. I admire that in you.
Posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 0:27:27
In reply to Re: Indirect messages » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:12:11
Oh, I just loved your posts (Tabitha and Dinah)! Hey, I like that name= Flame. Now, you have spark.;-)
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:32:34
In reply to Re: Indirect messages, posted by tabitha on June 29, 2004, at 23:42:21
Since Tabitha inspired me...
Perhaps some people feel that they can only be heard if they evoke strong feelings in others. That if they want to put out a message, for example, that therapy is bad (perhaps because they derived no benefit from therapy, perhaps because they were hurt by a therapist, perhaps because they were accused falsely of abuse through recovered memories), they don't think that merely saying so would reap a benefit. They think that people must be shocked into awareness. They think that only by making people angry can they make people think.
Ok, that's my own attempt at charity. Yet even so, it doesn't change my conclusion. That while such behavior is considered appropriate by Dr. Bob, I question its appropriateness on a support board.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 30, 2004, at 4:39:49
In reply to Re: My own attempt at a kind interpretation, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:32:34
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040624/msgs/361238.html
>
> Explain this one to me. I get a PBC (for a statement you took completely out of context -- I said that other people *said* it was hurtful to them, which is just true)
>
> crushedoutSorry, but the idea is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused -- even if you're quoting someone else:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
--
> If I were to name myself Flame, and enter a website proclaiming that I had been attacked at other websites...
>
> DinahI just want to thank everyone again for not attacking them here...
Bob
Posted by Racer on June 30, 2004, at 11:56:12
In reply to Alrighty, then!!, posted by Shar on June 28, 2004, at 23:28:25
Posted by tabitha on June 30, 2004, at 13:27:44
In reply to Re: Indirect messages » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:12:11
> But...
>
> If I were to name myself Flame, and enter a website proclaiming that I had been attacked at other websites for saying XXXXX, and took the time to look up a subject that I had absolutely no familiarity with but that another poster had expressed vulnerability to, I don't think that bewilderment would be my first response at posters' anger or expressed hurt to my saying XXXXX, YYYYYY, or even ZZZZZ. And even if I were bewildered or surprised, I'd kind of catch on when a whole lot of posters register pain at my words.
>Well, I was thinking of times in my own life when I've done ineffective things over and over, and not learned the obvious lesson, and finally discovered it was some kind of childhood repetition compulsion thing happening, where I was beating my head against a wall in an effort to 'make it work this time', which is supposed to fix the past, but just ends up getting me hurt over and over in the present, because I'm choosing situations where it can't possibly work this time. So.. I was open to the idea that maybe 'being listened to' or 'heeding my warnings' is a recurring issue here, and maybe there's a bit of a blind spot about the best way to get that to happen.
I probably wouldn't think that if it weren't for the reactions to the questions about intent. I saw some genuine surprise and hurt there.
Posted by tabitha on June 30, 2004, at 14:02:06
In reply to Re: Indirect messages » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 0:12:11
> It really is kind of you to look at it that way, though, Tabitha. I admire that in you.
I'm having a funny reaction to the word 'kind' in this thread. Somehow I'm hearing it as 'insincere', or as 'sacrificing my true feelings to keep others safe'. Let me explain. It's a departure from my former thinking to see people as acting out of a core of hurt and vulnerability covered up by anger, intellect, and other defenses. So when I use that new thinking, my inner critic is all ready to pounce on me and say 'See? People won't believe you're sincere if you use new thinking. They'll just think you're some nutty pollyanna, or else a big doormat who's afraid to think anything bad about anyone. The old thinking is safer.' So I'm all prepped to hear criticism from others about it, whether it's there or not.
I also feel funny accepting a compliment about it. My intent isn't be be kind to others due to some self-sacrifice, it's to keep myself happier. I'm happier if I assume others' more unpleasant behaviors come from some human center, rather than getting outraged about how wrong and bad they are, which is what I used to do. Life is harder for me when I think that way.
If you want to give me a compliment, it would feel good to hear 'good job using new healthier thinking there'.
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 15:39:45
In reply to Re: kind » Dinah, posted by tabitha on June 30, 2004, at 14:02:06
Tabitha, I'm quite certain you realize that I meant no disrespect by my choice of words. In fact your experiences in group and your therapist's work with you lately were very much in my mind when I wrote my post. So I can honestly say good work on using the new skills you've learned and that help you maintain your happiness.
Again, I apologize if I offended. I would never *intend* to offend you.
Posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 18:02:17
In reply to Re: Indirect messages, posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 0:27:27
"I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I'm very curious to know if Psychoanalysts still use the couch during therapy. Also, do you go multiple times per week (to therapy)?"
"It does seem that some of the folks here are quite hurt and confused. It does not appear from the posts that I've read, that therapy is helping them at all."
"Avoid any T that rewards or encourages you to whine, **bitch**, blame, behave as an "emotional cripple" and or "drama queen/king"
"My current PDoc is a resident and I pay good money to see her. She's been good and is highly supervised."
"I don't know what DID is. Please enlighten me"
"Maybe you aren't really a DID patient and are merely trying to trump up business for a DID therapist(s)? :) You see, the sword has 2 edges."
"Or, do some here claim to be able to read minds? :)"
"It is illegal to practice psychotherapy without a license, so I would never come to a forum like this for it!"
"Surely, I've been civil. You think not? Why?"
"I'd suggest you go back to my post from csicop and read about how most MPDs get WORSE, not BETTER with therapy!"
"(I didn't say that I found anything condescending.)"
"So far everyone one has been quite civil. :)"
"No more posts about this topic here"
"Thanks"Were these supportive or educational? My filter must be totally clouded, because I thought I saw something totally different. People asked for them not to reply. People were saying goodbyes. People were asking for protection on Admin. I was doing everything in my power to get this type of abuse to stop. Others said they weren't coming back until this was over.
Well, I am not going to say anything anymore on this. I know that I am powerless.
Posted by crushedout on June 30, 2004, at 18:07:08
In reply to Re: Indirect messages, posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 18:02:17
I think fires is actually Dr. Bob and he's showing us how useless his civility rules are, because as long as you follow the letter of the law, you can be as hurtful and sarcastic and cruel and provocative as you like.Why Dr. Bob would want to do this, I'm not sure. Maybe he has MPD? :)
Posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 19:30:42
In reply to fires is Dr. Bob, posted by crushedout on June 30, 2004, at 18:07:08
some smelling salts! I think Shadows fainted!
Posted by partlycloudy on June 30, 2004, at 19:35:03
In reply to ((Shadows fell out chair!!)):0 Someone get, posted by shadows721 on June 30, 2004, at 19:30:42
No, no, - it's an epidemic! The whole board has fainted!
"Keep it administrative here, please"
Posted by gabbix2 on June 30, 2004, at 19:37:30
In reply to Re: ((Shadows fell out chair!!)):0 Someone get » shadows721, posted by partlycloudy on June 30, 2004, at 19:35:03
> No, no, - it's an epidemic! The whole board has fainted!
>
Re-direct to the health board please ;)
Posted by tabitha on June 30, 2004, at 23:36:33
In reply to Re: ((Shadows fell out chair!!)):0 Someone get, posted by gabbix2 on June 30, 2004, at 19:37:30
Posted by tabitha on July 1, 2004, at 2:30:46
In reply to Re: kind » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 15:39:45
>
> Again, I apologize if I offended. I would never *intend* to offend you.Thanks for clarifying. I know you wouldn't intend to offend, sweetie. My inner critic is working really hard to find evidence that taking risks isn't safe. It's my stuff. You didn't do anything wrong.
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