![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by viridis on September 6, 2002, at 3:32:19
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
Just curious -- if you were diagnosed with high blood pressure, or a heart condition, or a genetic disease, or a bacterial infection, would you avoid the products of the "evil pharmaceutical empire"? Somehow psychiatric conditions are thought by certain individuals to be totally correctable by non-drug treatments, when the vast majority of modern evidence points to an organic cause for these ailments.
I'm all for lifestyle changes, exercise, good nutrition, and better sleeping habits, but having tried all of these and still suffering (until appropriate psychopharmaceutical treatment), I'm a firm believer in the value of drug treatment for serious psychiatric conditions.
I do agree that many prescription drugs are over-prescribed and sometimes inappropriate, but this is an issue of finding the right ones and the right doctor, not a fundamental failing of the companies that develop them.
I also use herbs and nutritional supplements, but these are just drugs of a different, less predictable and controlled kind, and have to be used as carefully as any prescription drug. Most are no more "natural" than prescription drugs, and many are downright dangerous -- they contain active chemicals too, often ones that the average human (modern or ancestral) wouldn't encounter in everyday life. "Natural" does not equal "safe"!
Finally -- in an earlier post you stated that ADD is "not real". Whatever ADD is (and I'm sure it encompasses a spectrum of conditions) it most definitely is real, as supported by a multitude of scientific studies. If you don't experience it, fine -- but please avoid unsubstantiated claims that could be hurtful and misleading to many on this board.
Posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 5:20:25
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
I must apologize for my ramblings. I did take it over the edge just a bit, and I know my claims are lacking any real substance to them, so I decided to post a few links for you all to read up on. The credibility is there, see for yourself. As for my hating anti-depressants, what I really meant by that is that I believe it is in fact way over-prescribed. I do think that some people in extreme cases should perhaps take them, but not this many people!
http://www.drday.com/attentiondeficit.htm
http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/myth_add_adhd.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4134650,00.html
http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/comment/0,8146,660311,00.html
http://www.vitamins-for-all.org/english/news/2002_0207a.htm
That is all for now. I hope I've helped shed some new light on your views of ADD and anti-depressants. Also I'm not trying to instigate any trouble here. I just find it difficult sometimes to properly convey a message without so many emotional overtones. Until next time.
Posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 6:20:49
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 5:20:25
The first two links are the biased opinions of individuals with something to sell. These are not the opinions shared by the majority of the psychiatric community. Everyone is biased to a certain extent, but to trust the information at these sites is just foolish. The first site you linked us to is written by a doctor who's been a guest on "The 700 Club" of all things! And her suggestion that "following Jesus" is the most effective treatment for hyperactivity is ridiculous. To top it all off her site sells her videos, books, and tapes! Red flag -- do not trust the information at sites that have something to sell. This is the case with your second link as well. After my experience with the first two links, I'm not even going to waste my time with the remaining links. I think it is safe to say you don't know the difference between science and psuedo-science. Please learn the difference, and don't spread pseudo-science here.
Jon
Posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 6:42:51
In reply to *Real* evidence please... » Martin Johnson, posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 6:20:49
First of all, I don't see how you can perceive Dr. Day's site to be biased. I was hoping you might take a little more time to thoroughly navigate the site rather than hastily skimming the details. Did you not see the pictures of Dr. Day's tumor? Take another look please. As for pseudo-science, these links do preach a solid scientific foundation. I have piles and piles of documents and links to many websites which correlate efficiently with these previous links I've provided. Also, the reason the majority of the medical world may see things the opposite is because most of them are paid well enough to not even care about what's really happening around them. Please do some real research. If you do you'll end up proving me right. Give this link a look. A report commissioned by the Youth Affairs Network surely shoudn't be so biased. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5006568%255E2,00.html. Maybe you are a little biased against the information I'm trying to put forth, simply because it does not fit into your current understanding of what you think you know.
Also don't be so quick to discredit someone just because they are trying to sell you Extensive amounts of useful and helpful Information. Try looking at the other links you say you refused to click on.
Posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 7:15:18
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
> Can't you people see that these unnatural anti-depressants aren't the answer?! There seem to be more side-effects than success stories. Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, Xanax, Welbutrin, and whatever else are all pretty new drugs, which mean the long-term effects for all are unknown. We've all seen the many short-term side-effects involved,yet when we go back to the doctor complaining, he will simply up the dosage or change to another drug all together. What's with that? This stuff doesn't even belong in our/your bodies to begin with. These are chemicals synthesized in a laboratory. The only reason we take them is because they seem like a good "quick fix" solution, and also because you aren't familiar with the many alternative methods that you will never see on TV or hear from most doctors.
_______If you go thru the archives, we've discussed everyting from massage, to herbs to coffee beans. Believe me, it's a long list.
___________The pharmeceutical industry is the highest grossing industry in the world, daily, weekly, yearly; even more than the oil industry. There is an extremely agressive market for anti-depressants, so doctors have no choice but to precribe it to every other depressed individual who comes into their office. Yes, even if its not safe or healthy, they'll shove it right down your throat. Look at all the commercials and ads etc. They want you to take this stuff so bad. Why? Because it dumbs you down.
_______Many people are dumb to begin with. So you're saying that they get us good and dumb so they can give us more drugs?
That way they can continue to perpetuate their pharmaceutical empire while no one notices or cares. Its money in their pockets folks. That's what it all comes down to. And we were all gullible enough to fall for it. Shame on us!
_______Actually a psychologist was smart enough to recommend a psychiatrist to me 20 years ago for medication. Want to know where I would most likely be without it?
____________Their has not been a soul on this earth throughout history who has not been depressed. Before anti-depressants what did people do? They dealt with it! They kept truckin' on.
_______They killed themselves, were thrown into mental hospitals, given lobotomy's, ECT without the benefit of a muscle relaxant or anesthesia. Many were outcast; written off by society. The list goes on partner.
So if I were suicidally depressed and you were my doctor, what would you recommend? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps?_________
Time heals, life continues.
_________Go to a diabetes website, tell them that insulin is evil and all they need is time.
_______
Their are so many other ways to treat or cure depression. Natural safer ways:
> Excercise! Excercise! Breathe... meditate... eat healthy.. never eat fast food... breathe.. take vitamins.. if you don't have much energy, try ginseng and ginkgo biloba, st. john's wort, passionflower, mugwort, skullcap, gotu kola. There are so many ways. Consult an herbalist. You'd be surprised. Eating healthy and excercising I believe are the best solutions. But don't just excercise for 1hr a day and sit for the rest. Don't live sedentarily. Move around, imagine... TURN OFF THE TV!Not bad advice if you're not catatonic. Many people can't even get out of bed much less eat 100's of dollars in herbs. Which are drugs that can kill you and need a lot more study. I agree with some of your thoughts but I don't think you are very familiar with severe depression.
By the way, I don't watch TV.
> Its funny how some doctors will tell you that you have a chemical imbalance in your brain or body which is the reason for your depression, and that the only solution (money)is to prescribe anti-deppressants. The most likely reason for any chemical imbalance is from living a sedentary life-style, not eating healthy, oversleeping, undersleeping, and even not so favorable personal experiences.
________Once again, let's blame the patient for his problems.
____________
I'm not a doctor but I've seen what these evil drugs can do to people. Many of my friends who've resolved to taking these A.D.'s have become worse than they were to begin with. Its so sad to see how our physicians and family doctors have betrayed us. I had a friend who was in the hospital waiting to get a cast on his leg. Across from him was an unconscious patient in the process of surgery. There were two doctors who were operating on him.They hardly payed him any attention while they chuckled on about their expensive cars and big mansions, not being able to wait to get to that nice green golf course. I know that not every doctor is this way, but it does show how pervasive money can be for anyone at any level of society. That's all for now. Heed my words of inspiration, observation, and revelation... for what their worth.
__________
>
> Thanks, but for now, I'd rather listen to my body and my very caring doctor.
>
>Phil
>
>
> P.S. Checkout the movie Requiem for a Dream.
Posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 7:23:16
In reply to Re: *Real* evidence please..., posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 6:42:51
OK, dude... I'm not going to argue with you. I acknowledge that everyone is biased in one way or another (including me), but good science keeps the impact of those biases to a minimum. Yes we live in an ADDesque society, but ADD still does exist. Many people here have it, and to be honest with you, in light of all the research it is rude and insensitive to tell people their diagnoses isn't real. I understand your intentions are good. I suppose you think you're enlightening people who have been brainwashed into thinking they have a problem that they don't have or something. I don't know. But isn't the bottom line that people improve their quality of life? If medication helps a person to function where they couldn't function before that is very important. Medication is only part of the solution when it comes to ADD but it is an important part. What's to be gained by suggesting ADD isn't real? Different people have different brain chemistries that respond to different drugs. At the end of the day it is a quality of life issue.
Jon
Posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 7:37:25
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
Martin,
Do you suffer from severe depression or bipolar disorder? Because I can't believe you would be so opposed to drugs if you do. The pharmaceutical companies certainly don't seem to be too ethical and probably are only interested in making a profit (like any other business), but if it weren't for their products many people would be dead right now.
Jon
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 7:46:23
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 5:20:25
Hi, Dinah here, filling in for Dr. Bob while he is away. I am posting a link to the site civility guidelines.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> I did take it over the edge just a bit,
One of the site guidelines asks that posters not exaggerate or overgeneralize.
> P.S. ADD isn't real.
Another is that posters not jump to conclusions about others or their experiences.
Please review the site guidelines. I understand that you feel strongly about psycho-pharmaceuticals, but it is possible to have a healthy discussion while staying well within the guidelines of the site.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 7:56:32
In reply to *Real* evidence please... » Martin Johnson, posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 6:20:49
>I think it is safe to say you don't know the difference between science and psuedo-science. Please learn the difference, and don't spread pseudo-science here.
>
> JonHi Jon,
Dinah here. I'm afraid I need to remind you not to jump to conclusions about others or their experiences, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
I realize that your post was a responsive one, but I hope you won't mind my suggesting that you take a walk or do breathing exercises in situations like this, before posting? It's fine under the civility guidelines to present arguments about the facts, but negative comments about the other poster should be left out.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 7:59:10
In reply to Re: Please be civil » JonW, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 7:56:32
Thanks for keeping the discussion based on facts and not posters. I see a lot of effort in the posts to stay within the civility guidelines, and it makes my remaining time here a lot easier.
Keep up the good work.
Dinah
Posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 8:24:37
In reply to Re: Please be civil » JonW, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 7:56:32
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 8:40:46
In reply to I'll be good :) (nm) » Dinah, posted by JonW on September 6, 2002, at 8:24:37
Posted by oracle on September 6, 2002, at 11:43:39
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
>> Excercise! Excercise! Breathe... meditate... eat healthy.. never eat fast food... breathe.. take vitamins.. if you don't have much energy, try ginseng and ginkgo biloba, st. john's wort, passionflower, mugwort, skullcap, gotu kola. There are so many ways. Consult an herbalist. You'd be surprised. Eating healthy and excercising I believe are the best solutions. But don't just excercise for 1hr a day and sit for the rest. Don't live sedentarily. Move around, imagine... TURN OFF THE TV!
When people make these well intended observations
I feel patronized. They have NO idea about my depression and what really works for me.
Posted by seweryn on September 6, 2002, at 12:13:14
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
You are 100000000000000% right.
There are no good the best antidepressant:
Sex side effects, sedation, agitation or anything else- nothing works longterm- maybe try to cocaine
Posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 12:44:44
In reply to You are 100000000000000% right., posted by seweryn on September 6, 2002, at 12:13:14
Posted by J200 on September 6, 2002, at 13:49:21
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
Martin,
There's a lot of truth in what you say, although A/Ds *do* help some, though I believe they are hugely overprescribed for more conditions than just depression. I think we'll see that tendency will diminish in time. People will compare notes with each other and figure out that most will not be helped by these drugs, and in fact many will be hindered by side effects. Also, in the future I believe we will begin seeing reports of dangerous long-term effects. Have you ever read "Talking Back To Prozac", by Dr. Peter Breggin ? If not, see http://www.breggin.com, or check into the work of Dr. Anne Blake Tracy at http://www.icfda.org.
Posted by J200 on September 6, 2002, at 13:51:50
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by J200 on September 6, 2002, at 13:49:21
Anne Tracy has apparently changed her URL: go to
http://www.drugawareness.org.
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:04:13
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
> Can't you people see that these unnatural anti-depressants aren't the answer?!
Ummmm...all drugs are "unnatural." So what?
There seem to be more side-effects than success stories.
Really? According to whom? Can you back this claim up with hard facts?
Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, Xanax, Welbutrin, and whatever else are all pretty new drugs, which mean the long-term effects for all are unknown. We've all seen the many short-term side-effects involved,yet when we go back to the doctor complaining, he will simply up the dosage or change to another drug all together. What's with that? This stuff doesn't even belong in our/your bodies to begin with.
Major depression does more damage to the body than do the drugs used to treat depression.
are chemicals synthesized in a laboratory.So?
The only reason we take them is because they seem like a good "quick fix" solution, and also because you aren't familiar with the many alternative methods that you will never see on TV or hear from most doctors.
Quick fix? I dont think so son. There is no such thing as a "quick fix" for severe depression.
> The pharmeceutical industry is the highest grossing industry in the world, daily, weekly, yearly; even more than the oil industry. There is an extremely agressive market for anti-depressants, so doctors have no choice but to precribe it to every other depressed individual who comes into their office. Yes, even if its not safe or healthy, they'll shove it right down your throat.Nobody has ever shoved any drugs down my throat.
Look at all the commercials and ads etc. They want you to take this stuff so bad. Why? Because it dumbs you down.
dumbs me down? LOL More the opposite it makes me more alert, able to think more clearly and sleep better. You seem to think antidepressants are the equivalent of booze or something that does "dumb you down."
That way they can continue to perpetuate their pharmaceutical empire while no one notices or cares. Its money in their pockets folks. That's what it all comes down to. And we were all gullible enough to fall for it. Shame on us! Their has not been a soul on this earth throughout history who has not been depressed.
Wrong. Everyone has been depressed from time to time, but most have not had major depression. Run of the mill depression, related to one's enviroment or situation is common and normal. It does not require drugs. Major depressive disorder on the other hand is a major medical problem and requires medical treatment. Otherwise the person will eventually die.
Before anti-depressants what did people do? They dealt with it! They kept truckin' on. Time heals, life continues. Their are so many other ways to treat or cure depression. Natural safer ways:
many died. Many were locked up in mental institutions. Life was not good for persons with severe mental illness prior to the invention of all these modern drugs.
> Excercise! Excercise! Breathe... meditate... eat healthy.. never eat fast food... breathe.. take vitamins.. if you don't have much energy, try ginseng and ginkgo biloba, st. john's wort, passionflower, mugwort, skullcap, gotu kola. There are so many ways. Consult an herbalist. You'd be surprised. Eating healthy and excercising I believe are the best solutions. But don't just excercise for 1hr a day and sit for the rest. Don't live sedentarily. Move around,
I am an exercise fantatic, have done way more exercise than youve even done and I can guarantee you exercise does not work for severe depression.imagine... TURN OFF THE TV!
> Its funny how some doctors will tell you that you have a chemical imbalance in your brain or body which is the reason for your depression, and that the only solution (money)is to prescribe anti-deppressants. The most likely reason for any chemical imbalance is from living a sedentary life-style, not eating healthy, oversleeping, undersleeping, and even not so favorable personal experiences. I'm not a doctor but I've seen what these evil drugs can do to people. Many of my friends who've resolved to taking these A.D.'s have become worse than they were to begin with. Its so sad to see how our physicians and family doctors have betrayed us. I had a friend who was in the hospital waiting to get a cast on his leg. Across from him was an unconscious patient in the process of surgery. There were two doctors who were operating on him.They hardly payed him any attention while they chuckled on about their expensive cars and big mansions, not being able to wait to get to that nice green golf course. I know that not every doctor is this way, but it does show how pervasive money can be for anyone at any level of society. That's all for now. Heed my words of inspiration, observation, and revelation... for what their worth.Id put money on it that your a scienotlogist.
Posted by audrey on September 6, 2002, at 15:56:39
In reply to The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 5, 2002, at 23:21:18
I have to say that you are pretty lucky. Yup, pharmaceutical reps and the doctors that buy into their crap are on my list of people who should be annhilated -- they are the people who have made Americans overmedicated. You, fortunately, have found something that works for you and whatever mental illness you might have. But you know, there are lots of people who absolutely need something else to get them through this life. I run marathons and am training for a triathalon, I don't own a television, I'm vegan, I take all the vitamins I need, I have excellent blood pressure, very low cholesterol, and my doctor tells me that (physically) I'll live to be 100 because everything is in excellent working order, and yet every single day I have to talk myself out of killing myself. I have panic attacks regularly, I cry often for no reason, I do very destructive things when I'm not medicated. I'm glad you aren't contributing to the vast profits of the drug companies -- fewer people should be. But if by my doing so I am able to keep myself alive, then that's something I'll just have to do.
Best,
Audrey
Posted by David Smith on September 6, 2002, at 23:33:46
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by audrey on September 6, 2002, at 15:56:39
Posted by utopizen on September 7, 2002, at 17:03:59
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by Martin Johnson on September 6, 2002, at 5:20:25
I will not insult the originator of this discussion, since I think I should respect his or her viewpoints.
However, I would caution others as to the legitimacy of one's authority on the subject of psychotherapy when one uses the phrase "keep on truckin'." If my doctor said "keep on truckin'," I would "keep on moving" to switch to another doctor.
Moreover, I believe the phrase "keep on truckin'" was said as way to suggest truck drivers feeling fatigue to ignore their rest and instead make their deadlines. That's all good and fine, but I wouldn't want to be the victim of an 18 wheeler, nor would I wish to be the one who told a truck driver to ignore his fatigue and tough it out.
Would the originator of this post feel regret if someone actually took his or her advice and did not treat his or her suicidal idealation effectively? Which is better, taking tested psychotropics or a switch blade? Obviously, psychiatrists save lives- and this reader should respect the profession more IMHO.
Posted by J200 on September 9, 2002, at 9:18:42
In reply to Keep on Truckin'!, posted by utopizen on September 7, 2002, at 17:03:59
The phrase "Keep on truckin'" has been around since the 1920's, and it does mean "Keep on going, no matter what !" Jeez, I wish I had a doctor who was hip enough to know that phrase, instead of the stuffed shirts (or blouses) I usually end up talking to.
Posted by sjb on September 9, 2002, at 10:00:13
In reply to Re: The Evil Pharmaceutical Empire, posted by audrey on September 6, 2002, at 15:56:39
I, too, am an endurance athlete or at least used to be. What meds are you taking? I've found that some seriously hinder my training. Wish I could eat well, but give in to cravings for junk.
I, too, think about dying everyday.
Posted by audrey on September 9, 2002, at 14:06:07
In reply to Question for Audrey, posted by sjb on September 9, 2002, at 10:00:13
What is your diagnosis and what meds are you taking, if any? Do they help with your thoughts of death? What is your athletic activity of choice (running, swimming, soccer, etc)?
I just started taking Depakote, and am not sure how it's going to impact my training. However, in the past I've taken Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, Buspar, Klonopin, Xanax, and Wellbutrin. All except the Benzos made me more anxious than I already was! I recently moved to Boston and finally found a doctor who was willing to go the extra mile to help me figure out what was really wrong with me rather than just declaring I was depressed (as if I didn't alredy know that), and I finally think the diagnosis is correct -- bipolar II.
In terms of my running, swimming, and, more recently, biking, I had good periods and bad periods. Sometimes I would go weeks or months without doing anything except sitting on the couch watching movies (they knew me really well at the video store) just because I couldn't motivate myself to get out and go for a run or hit the pool, or concentrate on reading a book or writing. And that's a vicious circle because NOT getting out there made me more depressed which made it harder to get moving which made me even more depressed... But then there were periods in which running and swimming probably saved me.
Anyway, I'm coming out of a very scary, hypomanic phase that I've been in since February, but I've managed to mostly maintain my training. I think having the goal of doing the half-Ironman triathlon has motivated me, especially since I've never done a triathlon before, and "looking stupid" in front of other people is something I'm horrified of! That fear also keeps me from acting like the crazy person I can be in public!
Anyway, if you'd like, I'll let you know how the Depakote is working out for me, if that is a drug you haven't tried, and if it would be appropriate for your diagnosis.
Oh, and although I disagreed with much of what the original poster of this thread said, I think he makes a good point about kicking the fast food habit. As soon as I became vegetarian, I felt much healthier, physically, and to some extent mentally. It's a tough habit to break, though.
Good luck.
> I, too, am an endurance athlete or at least used to be. What meds are you taking? I've found that some seriously hinder my training. Wish I could eat well, but give in to cravings for junk.
> I, too, think about dying everyday.
>
>
>
Posted by sjb on September 10, 2002, at 11:55:55
In reply to Re: Question for Audrey » sjb, posted by audrey on September 9, 2002, at 14:06:07
I run, or least used to. I've competed in marathons and ultramarathons and was training fairly well for the past 6 months for some fall events.
Everything fell apart a few weeks ago. I started overeating, depressed, crying, isolating, etc. I know what you mean about sitting around and scared to get out there cause it's not going to be pretty, but not doing anything is worse, etc.
I wish I had the willpower to stay on a vegetarian diet!!! I often have good intentions both for my health and for ethical reasons, and then give in to overwhelming cravings. I will keep trying. I KNOW if I can eat more nutriously, I will feel better.
I stopped taking my meds, just recently. Most would not think this is a good idea, but am concerned with a consensus that in the long term, SSRIs can increase the tendency for weight gain, even though short term there is often an appetite depressant. My history backs this up.
Luvox work great, initially, as did Effexor and Prozac, but after a while they stop working for me. When dosages are increased, I find it a decrease in strength and endurance.
I'm glad you found a good Dr.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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