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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
I'm going to write a nice post about my recent holidays, but I'm writing this one separately.
My father-in-law is 86. His wife died 2 1/2 years ago. He's a simple man; was taken out of school at about 12 yrs old to work on farms & help the family. He has a bad memory, tells the same stories over & over & basically ignores alot of what we say to reply with whatever HE wants to say. Ex - We had a really nice camping trip, Dad. Reply: When should I take my car in to get an oil change?
Anyway, sorry to ramble. He's really nice & always has been sweet. About 6 weeks ago I went over to his house to help him with his laundry. When I hugged him hello, he said, "It's been a long time since I hugged a woman." I commented on how he must miss Mom. When we hugged goodbye he said, "It's been a long time since I slept with a woman." I immediately pulled away & said that I understood that he missed Mom. I discussed it with my husband & we came to the conclusion that when I see him, I'll just lean over to
give him a cheek-to-cheek hug instead of an arms-around hug. He said it would probably take care of it & there was probably no reason not to go over. A week & a half ago I went over to his house. I didn't even hug him. We threw a load of laundry in, went to a take-out restaurant, go breakfast, took it to a picnic table at the community garden plots & ate there. I thought it would give him something different to think about - he doesn't have friends, hobbies, etc. Doesn't read - watches the odd TV show. We went back, took out the laundry & I told him he needed to change his pillow cases more often; he said he didn't know if he had more than 2 pair. We went upstairs, found some. He was between me & the door. He looked over at the bed & then stepped forward & put his arms around me & pressed his pelvis against me. I was SHOCKED. I was sexually abused when I was 4 or 5 by 3 family "friends" & I'm currently working on that with my pscyh, so this really triggered me into my 'little girl' self. I backed away & he looked right into my eyes & said "I love you Kath". I turned it back to I'm sure you miss Mom & walked past him into the hall. I was very embarrassed & uncomfortable & the co-dependent part of me didn't want to "rock the boat" or "make him feel badly"!!!! He again held me from the side & said "Oh, I'm getting horny, I better not do that" & he was holding himself. I said "No you'd better not!!" then to try & shift things said how old was he & he said 86 & I said, so he still got those feelings at 86 & he said yes & "I'll tell you, if a woman wanted it, I'd do it!!" I was feeling panicky & didn't know what to do & didn't want to make things awkward & was trying to "normalize" things. I told him how my Mom had died first & I knew my Dad must have missed her etc. then I started to go downstairs. He was still holding himself & said "You KNOW what I feel like doing!" I said yes & kept walking down the stairs & he said "But I wouldn't ever do that to you." Those words freaked me out the most - I guess the fact that he would even THINK about "doing that" to me. Anyway I talked about anything & everything downstairs & then said I had to go. He went to hug me face-to-face & as I turned my head, his glasses hit my forehead. I was still trying to act normal. I left & couldn't think; couldn't remember what store I was heading for; started to forget what had happened. Went home; phoned my good friend; went over & told her it all - had trouble remembering the details. Called a "help" phone line. Then, Dad phoned me & said he'd gotten carried away when we hugged & he apologized. I said I was glad he apologized because I had been very uncomfortable & it was NOT okay. When I told my husband, he was very supportive, but I was still reeling from it. I think it REALLY stirred stuff up. The next day I went to my women's group therapy & was about to talk about it & cried for the first time. Two days later the phone rang at 8 a.m. & it was Dad saying, "Kath - I'm REALLY HORNY". I was mad & said there wasn't much he could do about it & I suggested he talk to his doctor about it because sometimes older people have problems like that. I was very very upset, because I'd thought with the apology it was over. I've talked to alot of people about it. The same day, I phoned his sister-in-law & she told me he went to her house (his dead wife's sister) & talked about the same stuff & asked her if he gave her $50 would she have sex with him!!!!!!! She said "Not on your life". I phoned my husband's brother, who was at home & told him & he was appalled & phoned & blasted his Dad & told him he'd end up arrested or in a mental hospital if he didn't stop this behaviour. My husband went over on the weekend & firmly told his Dad the same stuff & that he was NEVER to talk to women about sex again. I also phoned Dad & told him I was still very upset & angry & that I wouldn't be visiting him or talking on the phone with him. That I need time to get over this. He said he guaranteed that he would never touch me again.Sorry to ramble on, but I wanted to give the details because problem is that I FEEL IT WAS MY FAULT. My mind goes: I should have known after the first time 6 weeks ago that this would happen; I shouldn't have gone over by myself; I shouldn't have worn shorts over there; I shouldn't have hugged him ever; it's my fault; I should have known he was lonely; it's my fault, I must have done something; I should have walked right out after he first pressed up against me; I should have been ANGRY; I shouldn't have talked to him any more; I shouldn't have tried to normalize the conversation; I shouldn't have acted as if nothing happened; it's my fault; it must have beem something I did.... On & On. I saw my pdoc last nite & she's helping me but it's so hard. Last nite I asked my husband again "Was it my fault that it happened? Did I do something wrong? I shouldn't have worn shorts over" & he reassured me that it wasn't; that men have to control themselves every day - what kind of a world would it be if everybody did what they thought about. I feel really wimpy getting stuck in this, but I feel like I am!
Any input would be good, I guess especially from men. I guess if the input would be "Yes it was your fault" I don't need to hear that! Maybe I'm just an ostrich putting my head into the sand.
Thanks for being there to listen. Now I'll write my nice holiday stuff in a separate post to get feeling better!
Thanks, Kath :-(
Posted by shar on August 11, 2000, at 13:40:23
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Your father-in-law was exhibiting extremely inappropriate behavior.
There is no reason for you to put yourself in that unsafe environment again.
Shar
Posted by Oddzilla on August 11, 2000, at 13:52:43
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Kath
It's not your fault.
If this is totally out of character for him he really needs to be checked out by a doctor. Older people can have mental illnesses that cause a change in behaviour or lowered inhibitions. They can also be treated and totally recover! (Seen it happen in my family.)
Perhaps you could refuse to see him again until he's evaluated? That might also help him understand just how serious it is.
Again it's totally not your fault. It sounds like you handled everything well. Emotionally, I can imagine it must be horribly upsetting, especially with your history. Please keep reaching out and get all the support you need for yourself for as long as you need it.
It's not your fault (one more time).
Oddzilla
Posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 14:02:15
In reply to Definitely NOT your fault, posted by Oddzilla on August 11, 2000, at 13:52:43
Hi Oddzilla - Thanks so much. 4 "not your faults" counting the subject line...boy do I need those. I'm going to print off the replies & keep them in my purse! Thanks - good idea about the doctor & evaluation etc. I'll do it.
Take care, Kath
>
> It's not your fault.
>
> If this is totally out of character for him he really needs to be checked out by a doctor. Older people can have mental illnesses that cause a change in behaviour or lowered inhibitions. They can also be treated and totally recover! (Seen it happen in my family.)
>
> Perhaps you could refuse to see him again until he's evaluated? That might also help him understand just how serious it is.
>
> Again it's totally not your fault. It sounds like you handled everything well. Emotionally, I can imagine it must be horribly upsetting, especially with your history. Please keep reaching out and get all the support you need for yourself for as long as you need it.
>
> It's not your fault (one more time).
>
>
> Oddzilla
Posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 14:03:47
In reply to Re: Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by shar on August 11, 2000, at 13:40:23
> Your father-in-law was exhibiting extremely inappropriate behavior.
>
> There is no reason for you to put yourself in that unsafe environment again.
>
> Shar
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 11, 2000, at 14:38:04
In reply to Definitely NOT your fault, posted by Oddzilla on August 11, 2000, at 13:52:43
Kath,
That is so awful for you. I don't know what to say that could possibly make it any better for you, other than there is no way on earth that it was your fault.
No woman, what ever she was wearing deserves to be treated in that way. I hope that the situation can be sorted out.
((hugs))
Nikki x
Posted by tdaneen on August 11, 2000, at 16:50:12
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Oh, Kath.
I am so sorry.
What a terribly confusing and frightening experience.
This is not your fault.
This is NOT your fault
This is not YOUR fault.What he did, what happened was VERY inappropriate behavior. From anyone.
Kath, men and women both are animals, but sexual urges...let me be frank...If the man feels too much tention, well then relief is just within his arms reach (know what I mean?).
You didn't lead him on.
I'm not denying that and elderly gentleman (or lady for that matter) would want a sexual relationship. This is natural, what is NOT natural is to want one with your daughter in law.
You are ok. Keep grounded. Don't let this throw you into flashbacks. It sound like you are facing it well. Keep it up.
I'm smiling a tiny encouraging smile for you...
....and I do understand this....T
Posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 17:21:41
In reply to Re: Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long) » Kath, posted by tdaneen on August 11, 2000, at 16:50:12
Thx for your support. I can use all the "it's not your fault"s that come my way!! Funny how I look to others' opinions in this, but I do, I think because of what happened when I was little.
Thank God I have a wonderful lady pdoc who is so gentle & compassionate. I saw her last nite & we did some good work. The ONE good thing that can come out of this is that I can get in touch with some of the feelings about when I was little. I have snips of memories that I've told my pdoc & when I was describing this recent thing, she'd say, 'well, how did the little girl feel when she was sitting there & they laughed at her?' &
whereas I wasn't able to FEEL that before this happened, last nite, I WAS able to feel it when I closed my eyes.You know, when he phoned & told me he was h**ny a part of me felt like saying "Well for goodness sake, take CARE of it then!!" I guess I felt like that after I got off the phone. When I told my husband's brother that's what HE said 'Why doesn't he take care of it himself?' but then he said, of course it wasn't up to me to talk about ANY of this stuff with Dad.
As usual, your support is greatly appreciated & I gladly accept your smile!
Hugs, Kath
> Oh, Kath.
> I am so sorry.
> What a terribly confusing and frightening experience.
> This is not your fault.
> This is NOT your fault
> This is not YOUR fault.
>
> What he did, what happened was VERY inappropriate behavior. From anyone.
>
> Kath, men and women both are animals, but sexual urges...let me be frank...If the man feels too much tention, well then relief is just within his arms reach (know what I mean?).
>
> You didn't lead him on.
>
> I'm not denying that and elderly gentleman (or lady for that matter) would want a sexual relationship. This is natural, what is NOT natural is to want one with your daughter in law.
>
> You are ok. Keep grounded. Don't let this throw you into flashbacks. It sound like you are facing it well. Keep it up.
>
>
> I'm smiling a tiny encouraging smile for you...
> ....and I do understand this....
>
> T
Posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 17:23:23
In reply to Re: Definitely NOT your fault, posted by NikkiT2 on August 11, 2000, at 14:38:04
> Kath,
>
> That is so awful for you. I don't know what to say that could possibly make it any better for you, other than there is no way on earth that it was your fault.
>
> No woman, what ever she was wearing deserves to be treated in that way. I hope that the situation can be sorted out.
>
> ((hugs))
>
> Nikki x
Posted by Noa on August 11, 2000, at 19:11:03
In reply to Thx tdaneen, posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 17:21:41
Most definitely not your fault. I agree with Oddzilla--if this is not his usual way of acting, it might represent a medical problem that is causing the behavioral disinhibition. An evaluation is in order.
Nothing you did contributed to his inappropriate behavior. You were trying hard to get out of the situation without hurting him.
I agree with the others who say don't put yourself back into the situation. Have your husband deal with him from now on. Including arranging an evaluation.
If you find yourself in contact with him, by phone or in person, be very firm and direct about boundaries. Your sense of safety comes first. You can say directly that his behavior is inappropriate and to stop, and then remove yourself by hanging up the phone, leaving, etc. Get someone else to help him with the things you have been doing (laundry, etc.)
Glad you shared that here, and went for support out there. It sounds like it was an awful experience, and remember, it was not your fault or responsibility.
Posted by Dancer on August 11, 2000, at 19:34:59
In reply to Definitely Not Your Fault, posted by Noa on August 11, 2000, at 19:11:03
Since I was given such a lovely welcome above I just thought I'd go ahead and relate some wisdom of my own. I hope no one minds.
My dear Kath, this is most definitely not your fault, nor did you do anything to provoke it. Wearing shorts is not an invitation to assault. My goodness, how frightened you must have been, especially with the incidents in your history. Perhaps the gentleman is becoming quite senile and cannot control himself, perhaps it is a medical condition as someone else mentioned causing him to behave in this manner. I in no way wish to excuse is behavior but it is quite unnatural for an 86 year old man to behave this way without there being an underlying cause, more I think than just missing his wife. Perhaps a trip to the doctor or geriatric psychologist is in order. Darling, please never believe that you could have in any way provoked this behavior. I am sure you are a very caring and compassionate person, you have been to me, and you will know what the right thing to do is.
Best of luck
D
Posted by mark on August 11, 2000, at 22:03:16
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Ok, first - Yuck!
Kath, this is so not your fault. I can't see anything in your post where
you provoked this kind of reaction. Don't let those old tapes play that say
it was your fault. I know it's rough, because I push the "play" button on
'em every now and then. Repeat after me: It's not my fault. I am a good person
who deserves respect. I will act, not react.And lastly, not your fault!
Virtual Hugs,
Mark
Posted by Cam W. on August 11, 2000, at 23:53:22
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Kath - I too, think this is a medical problem. I am having a mental lapse right now, so I will think out loud. If we look at the symptoms (disinhibition of a drive - sexual), it seems to me to be a neuronal dysfunction, some nerve cells are not firing correctly. We do see this sort of disinhibition in certain manic individuals, in some psychoses, even nymphomania. It kinda sounds like he is fixated on sex. Could this be the result of a mini stroke? A part of the brain is not getting oxygen, due to lack of blood flow to the area and the cells have died. I can't remember which area of the brain controls sexual drives (pituitary?) or which neurotransmitter is involved (maybe excess dopamine?). Someone out there may know.
What it all comes down to is, "Is it normal for a 86 year old man to act the way he is acting?" No! Therefore, he should really see a doctor to be checked out. There are medical treatments for this kind of behavior. Maybe a small dose of Zyprexa or some traditional antipsychotic (dopamine blocker).
From a man's point of view, if it was a "normal" sexual urge, he could take care of it by himself.
Anyway Kath, don't beat yourself up over this. It is not your fault that you are female. Take him to the doctor, but have someone else with you, preferably a man.
I'll be thinking about you, Kath. Hang in there - Cam
Posted by Sunnely on August 12, 2000, at 2:03:20
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Kath,
Firstly, I highly doubt your dad-in-law's behavior was brought about by whatever you did. Please don't blame yourself.
Secondly, I believe he is suffering from some form of neurological condition presenting as psychiatric symptoms. One possibility is a form of dementia complicated by disturbance in mood or personality. The dementing symptoms would include what you described as having a bad memory, telling the same stories over and over ("perseveration"), and I would venture to say, may be even "confabulation" wherein a person fills gaps in memory by talking about things that never happened (making up stories but not intentionally).
Whatever the cause of this dementing process is, it is complicated by the inappropriate behavior you described. One possibility is the condition called "Organic Mood Disorder," (manic) exemplified by his inappropriate sexual comments/behavior, and impaired judgment (both are forms of disinhibited behavior). The other possibility is the condition called "Organic Personality Disorder," from being a "nice and always sweet man" to a "dirty old man."
You should have your dad-in-law evaluated by his physician to look for possible cause(s) of this inappropriate behavior in an 86-year-old man. He needs to undergo psychiatric/neurological and probably neuropsychological evaluation. He will also need a battery of laboratory tests such as comprehensive metabolic panels, other blood tests, and x-rays. An MRI, a sensitive scan of the brain, will be able to pick even subtle abnormal brain changes that may explain the dementia and his behavior. If he has a history of long-standing high blood pressure, one strong possibility is a vascular type dementia such as "multi-infarct" dementia (mini-strokes). Other possible causes are tumors, trauma, infection/inflammation, nutritional, effects of certain drugs, metabolic or endocrine process, just to name a few.
Posted by Jennifer on August 12, 2000, at 3:49:26
In reply to Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long), posted by Kath on August 11, 2000, at 12:32:15
Kath...I'm heading out, so I didn't get a chance to read the other replies. Just wanted to say that this is much more common in the elderly then people are aware. This is a medical condition, and is frequently concomminent with the onset of dementia/senility. Most people don't care to discuss it because they are embarrassed that their family member would act in such a way. Although it is very innappropriate behavior, he has no knowledge that it is improper. He may have periods where he is more lucid, but this will continue to worsen without medical intervention. He needs to see a gerontologist. It will not be "cured" but controlled. Your husband should take him in to the MD if possible, this is not for you to do. I understand this is an awful experience from your past ordeals, but it is in no way actually related to you, or to sex. Remember how you can't help how you feel when you are having a panic attack....he can't help this mental process and it's physiological reaction. He doesn't need "therapy" or anything...it's almost always completely a medical condition. You are best to be firm with him if he acts innapropriately with you. Treat him like a teenager (get it?) Put your hands on his shoulders firmly and tell him "This is not appropriate, and you need to stop". Don't get mad, he can't help it. Try distraction techniques...like "if you'd like to watch a movie, I'll start dinner." If he is out of control, and you can't get your husband or a friend to come over and help...call for medical help. Hope it helps. Jennifer
> I'm going to write a nice post about my recent holidays, but I'm writing this one separately.
>
> My father-in-law is 86. His wife died 2 1/2 years ago. He's a simple man; was taken out of school at about 12 yrs old to work on farms & help the family. He has a bad memory, tells the same stories over & over & basically ignores alot of what we say to reply with whatever HE wants to say. Ex - We had a really nice camping trip, Dad. Reply: When should I take my car in to get an oil change?
> Anyway, sorry to ramble. He's really nice & always has been sweet. About 6 weeks ago I went over to his house to help him with his laundry. When I hugged him hello, he said, "It's been a long time since I hugged a woman." I commented on how he must miss Mom. When we hugged goodbye he said, "It's been a long time since I slept with a woman." I immediately pulled away & said that I understood that he missed Mom. I discussed it with my husband & we came to the conclusion that when I see him, I'll just lean over to
> give him a cheek-to-cheek hug instead of an arms-around hug. He said it would probably take care of it & there was probably no reason not to go over. A week & a half ago I went over to his house. I didn't even hug him. We threw a load of laundry in, went to a take-out restaurant, go breakfast, took it to a picnic table at the community garden plots & ate there. I thought it would give him something different to think about - he doesn't have friends, hobbies, etc. Doesn't read - watches the odd TV show. We went back, took out the laundry & I told him he needed to change his pillow cases more often; he said he didn't know if he had more than 2 pair. We went upstairs, found some. He was between me & the door. He looked over at the bed & then stepped forward & put his arms around me & pressed his pelvis against me. I was SHOCKED. I was sexually abused when I was 4 or 5 by 3 family "friends" & I'm currently working on that with my pscyh, so this really triggered me into my 'little girl' self. I backed away & he looked right into my eyes & said "I love you Kath". I turned it back to I'm sure you miss Mom & walked past him into the hall. I was very embarrassed & uncomfortable & the co-dependent part of me didn't want to "rock the boat" or "make him feel badly"!!!! He again held me from the side & said "Oh, I'm getting horny, I better not do that" & he was holding himself. I said "No you'd better not!!" then to try & shift things said how old was he & he said 86 & I said, so he still got those feelings at 86 & he said yes & "I'll tell you, if a woman wanted it, I'd do it!!" I was feeling panicky & didn't know what to do & didn't want to make things awkward & was trying to "normalize" things. I told him how my Mom had died first & I knew my Dad must have missed her etc. then I started to go downstairs. He was still holding himself & said "You KNOW what I feel like doing!" I said yes & kept walking down the stairs & he said "But I wouldn't ever do that to you." Those words freaked me out the most - I guess the fact that he would even THINK about "doing that" to me. Anyway I talked about anything & everything downstairs & then said I had to go. He went to hug me face-to-face & as I turned my head, his glasses hit my forehead. I was still trying to act normal. I left & couldn't think; couldn't remember what store I was heading for; started to forget what had happened. Went home; phoned my good friend; went over & told her it all - had trouble remembering the details. Called a "help" phone line. Then, Dad phoned me & said he'd gotten carried away when we hugged & he apologized. I said I was glad he apologized because I had been very uncomfortable & it was NOT okay. When I told my husband, he was very supportive, but I was still reeling from it. I think it REALLY stirred stuff up. The next day I went to my women's group therapy & was about to talk about it & cried for the first time. Two days later the phone rang at 8 a.m. & it was Dad saying, "Kath - I'm REALLY HORNY". I was mad & said there wasn't much he could do about it & I suggested he talk to his doctor about it because sometimes older people have problems like that. I was very very upset, because I'd thought with the apology it was over. I've talked to alot of people about it. The same day, I phoned his sister-in-law & she told me he went to her house (his dead wife's sister) & talked about the same stuff & asked her if he gave her $50 would she have sex with him!!!!!!! She said "Not on your life". I phoned my husband's brother, who was at home & told him & he was appalled & phoned & blasted his Dad & told him he'd end up arrested or in a mental hospital if he didn't stop this behaviour. My husband went over on the weekend & firmly told his Dad the same stuff & that he was NEVER to talk to women about sex again. I also phoned Dad & told him I was still very upset & angry & that I wouldn't be visiting him or talking on the phone with him. That I need time to get over this. He said he guaranteed that he would never touch me again.
>
> Sorry to ramble on, but I wanted to give the details because problem is that I FEEL IT WAS MY FAULT. My mind goes: I should have known after the first time 6 weeks ago that this would happen; I shouldn't have gone over by myself; I shouldn't have worn shorts over there; I shouldn't have hugged him ever; it's my fault; I should have known he was lonely; it's my fault, I must have done something; I should have walked right out after he first pressed up against me; I should have been ANGRY; I shouldn't have talked to him any more; I shouldn't have tried to normalize the conversation; I shouldn't have acted as if nothing happened; it's my fault; it must have beem something I did.... On & On. I saw my pdoc last nite & she's helping me but it's so hard. Last nite I asked my husband again "Was it my fault that it happened? Did I do something wrong? I shouldn't have worn shorts over" & he reassured me that it wasn't; that men have to control themselves every day - what kind of a world would it be if everybody did what they thought about. I feel really wimpy getting stuck in this, but I feel like I am!
>
> Any input would be good, I guess especially from men. I guess if the input would be "Yes it was your fault" I don't need to hear that! Maybe I'm just an ostrich putting my head into the sand.
>
> Thanks for being there to listen. Now I'll write my nice holiday stuff in a separate post to get feeling better!
>
> Thanks, Kath :-(
Posted by Rach on August 12, 2000, at 5:16:36
In reply to Re: Yucky come-on - feel like it's my fault (long) » Kath, posted by Jennifer on August 12, 2000, at 3:49:26
Any type of sexual harrassment is never the victim's fault. Other people have made great suggestions about getting him to see someone. I also agree that it may be easier for you if you don't go over to see him for awhile.
It is NOT your fault.
It is not YOUR fault.
It is NOT YOUR FAULT!It is hard not to feel guilt, I know. I hope you are feeling better, more settled, and that things work out. I'm thinking of you.
Love and Peace,
Rach
Posted by Billb on August 12, 2000, at 8:28:05
In reply to Kath - NEVER your fault, posted by Rach on August 12, 2000, at 5:16:36
> Kath, I do know of a family that had a similar problem (the man was 76). He was eventually successfully treated with medication. However, the family waited, in my opinion, too long before seeking medical help. The man's condition continued to worsen until he really, really scared a female member in the family when a physical struggle ensued.
Have your husband get him medical help asap.
And, its not your fault, any more than it is your fault that people get cancer, diabetes, etc.
Posted by Kath on August 12, 2000, at 14:10:12
In reply to Re: Kath - Not your fault, posted by Billb on August 12, 2000, at 8:28:05
Thanks all of you. You have no idea how this support has (and continues to) helped me. All the "it's NOT your fault"s are truly helping me. It's almost as if a little part of my mind is saying "Hey, if all these people from all over the world are saying that it MUST be true".
Another thing that I didn't even realize until this morning is this: I was feeling "I'm making such a BIG DEAL about this; it wasn't THAT big a deal; I'm spinning it all out of proportion" etc. etc. From your replies I realize that other people think it's a big deal, so - !!maybe it is!!
I think I'm really "getting" the it's not my fault part. I am now working on the "hey - it WAS a big deal & of COURSE it was upsetting!!!"
Thanks very much for your support!
Hugs to you all (nice healthy non-yucky hugs!!!!!)
Kath :-)
Posted by shar on August 12, 2000, at 15:47:11
In reply to Re: support - to all of you , posted by Kath on August 12, 2000, at 14:10:12
Kath,
When I posted before I kept it really short because I thought you wanted to mainly hear from guys. But, seeing the posts I feel freer to expound a bit.I believe it is very threatening and intrusive to our "self" or "soul" for another person to grab, touch, embrace, stand too near. If it was a stranger, you would immediately move away and make sure that did not occur again. But, in this situation, you had to endure the threat, and keep yourself exposed to it, to be polite (instead of slugging him or pushing him or whatever). That is traumatic for you, and definitely not your fault. You didn't have control over his behavior; if you did have control you would not have "made" him do that for sure! You would make him just be kindly old dad. But, you don't have control over him, he had control, and you didn't cause him to do it in any way.
Even with the knowledge that he may be ill, it doesn't put his behavior on your head. His inappropriate behavior would not be allowed if he did it to a stranger! I think you have done a great job of being very clear with him about what is wrong, and what your expectations are, not giving him excuses or the chance to do it 10 more times before you say something. It was clearly a great shock, and I can understand how, the first time, you might go away sort of shaking your head and wondering if he did what you thought. When it became clear, you were swiftly in action, dealing with it very well, apprising the appropriate individuals, and taking care of business--wow, do I admire you for the way you handled everything.
Even though you may FEEL awful, and it brought back sad memories, you really moved in to protect yourself; a huge sign of mental health and self-love. Finally, somebody (you) stepped in and did not let someone else continue to scare you, touch you, hurt you. Your parents should have done that for you as a little girl--without exception, no excuses.
Hmmm, I seem to be rambling. I want you to know that you don't control anyone's behavior; nor does the way you dress. If you had control, I'm sure you would make people feel good and behave in an honorable way, and express affection appropriately. Not the opposite.
No matter the age, mental state, stress level, whatever, nobody has the right to touch you uninvited, period, no exceptions.
Take good care. I'm wishing you peace.
Shar
Posted by Kath on August 12, 2000, at 21:19:08
In reply to Re: support - to all of you , posted by shar on August 12, 2000, at 15:47:11
Hi Shar - Thx so much for both posts. I may have made it sound like I mainly wanted support from guys but I didn't mean to limit it in that way :-)
Thx for the very kind, supportive & clarifying words. I see the truth in what you've said. It feels really good to read so many people saying so many supportive things & validating things. It helps me to deal with it.
I feel really good that I've told my father-in-law what my bondaries are and my husband really respects them also. He said he can help his dad do his laundry while he's over there & he fully supports me doing what I need in this. Same with my brother-in-law, who was mortified that his dad did that. It makes me feel wonderful that I can take care of myself in doing what I need; I've been pampering myself - in whatever ways I need to: going to a restaurant for food if I don't feel like cooking, reading in the sun, doing as little housework as I need to, etc...talking about it if I want to, phoning friends etc. Whatever I need to do. And the child part of me (who I'm usually pretty much in touch with, but who has disappeared to a large part, since this happened) is starting to creep back a little more, feeling that I'm taking care of "us" & that I CARE about taking care of "us". Sounds odd perhaps.
I've got alot of supports in place, & rather than hide this, I tend to talk about it, which gets rid of shame quite a bit or puts in where it should be - on my father-in-law!
Thanks Shar. How are things in your life?
I hope you're having a nice weekend.
Hugs, Kath> Kath,
> When I posted before I kept it really short because I thought you wanted to mainly hear from guys. But, seeing the posts I feel freer to expound a bit.
>
> I believe it is very threatening and intrusive to our "self" or "soul" for another person to grab, touch, embrace, stand too near. If it was a stranger, you would immediately move away and make sure that did not occur again. But, in this situation, you had to endure the threat, and keep yourself exposed to it, to be polite (instead of slugging him or pushing him or whatever). That is traumatic for you, and definitely not your fault. You didn't have control over his behavior; if you did have control you would not have "made" him do that for sure! You would make him just be kindly old dad. But, you don't have control over him, he had control, and you didn't cause him to do it in any way.
>
> Even with the knowledge that he may be ill, it doesn't put his behavior on your head. His inappropriate behavior would not be allowed if he did it to a stranger! I think you have done a great job of being very clear with him about what is wrong, and what your expectations are, not giving him excuses or the chance to do it 10 more times before you say something. It was clearly a great shock, and I can understand how, the first time, you might go away sort of shaking your head and wondering if he did what you thought. When it became clear, you were swiftly in action, dealing with it very well, apprising the appropriate individuals, and taking care of business--wow, do I admire you for the way you handled everything.
>
> Even though you may FEEL awful, and it brought back sad memories, you really moved in to protect yourself; a huge sign of mental health and self-love. Finally, somebody (you) stepped in and did not let someone else continue to scare you, touch you, hurt you. Your parents should have done that for you as a little girl--without exception, no excuses.
>
> Hmmm, I seem to be rambling. I want you to know that you don't control anyone's behavior; nor does the way you dress. If you had control, I'm sure you would make people feel good and behave in an honorable way, and express affection appropriately. Not the opposite.
>
> No matter the age, mental state, stress level, whatever, nobody has the right to touch you uninvited, period, no exceptions.
>
> Take good care. I'm wishing you peace.
> Shar
Posted by MisterB on August 13, 2000, at 18:01:28
In reply to Guys' girls' support welcome :-), posted by Kath on August 12, 2000, at 21:19:08
Kath,
I have some gay friends but I have been lucky to select, or by chance find friends that respect my boundaries. Most know if they don't, they won't enjoy the pleasure of my company. On rare occassions when somebody violates those boundaries, I don't blame myself much, but maybe I deal with guilt differently.My perspective is that well-defined moral structures yield more feelings of guilt, whereas boundaries based on arbitrary personal preferences yield feelings of ambivilance along with reactions aimed at achieving those preferences.
The part of your reaction that concerned me, actually of your hubby's reaction, was the threat to put him in a mental hospital. Psychological services are often used as tools of social control rather than to promote health. A more appropriate warning might be that, if he does not behave so people are comfortable around him, he will end up in a residential care facility for the elderly. There, staff are (or should be) trained to deal with sexual harrassment. Maybe he wants some age appropriate company, and is alienating younger people in an effort to find what he really wants.
Threats to use legal force, in my opinion, should be specific. His desires are not illegal. Soliciting prostitution is illegal, as is sexual battery, sexual assualt, or lewd and lascivious behavior, depending on your state and municipal laws. Legal boundaries are not contiguous with personal boundaries.
If I have a thematic point here, it is that abuse breeds abuse, and that abuse of authority in response to sexual abuse forecloses opportunities to reach the heart of the problem. Looking at it with detachment, I would say treat it as an interpersonal problem with him rather than weilding ambiguous moral authority. But I can't say I would act that way if my feelings were involved.
Posted by Kath on August 14, 2000, at 10:02:47
In reply to Re: support , posted by MisterB on August 13, 2000, at 18:01:28
Hi MisterB
Thx for the post. I appreciate the input.
I'm glad I received alot of help dealing with my feelings around the whole issue FIRST. At this point, your comments are quite good for me to hear.
I think you've made a good point, in particular, to point out that a more realistic & appropriate result of the inappropriate behaviour would be residence in a senior's home rather than a mental institution. I also agree about psychological services being used as tools of control. I'd never thought of that before, but you're quite right here. I don't think that my husband or his brother ACTUALLY believed that Dad would end up in a mental institution!! Good point. It makes me realize that we haven't been dealing with Dad in a "straight-on" way. Just because he's uneducated & simple & has a bad memory etc. we tend to "talk down" to him & it really isn't necessary. However - when I laid out my boundaries to him, I WAS real & guess what! - he understood & I felt better than I usually feel when communicating with him!!
Regarding the guilt, I think that my reaction is quite different from the reaction of someone who was not sexually abused as a child. I'm getting professional help about that issue & the positive spin that I choose to take is that this situation has brought the emotions 'way closer to the surface. I have had one session with my pdoc since this happened & I know that I can achieve more in the way of healing than I might have been able to do if this hadn't happened!!
Thanks for your input. Hope you are well.
Kath
> Kath,
> I have some gay friends but I have been lucky to select, or by chance find friends that respect my boundaries. Most know if they don't, they won't enjoy the pleasure of my company. On rare occassions when somebody violates those boundaries, I don't blame myself much, but maybe I deal with guilt differently.
>
> My perspective is that well-defined moral structures yield more feelings of guilt, whereas boundaries based on arbitrary personal preferences yield feelings of ambivilance along with reactions aimed at achieving those preferences.
>
> The part of your reaction that concerned me, actually of your hubby's reaction, was the threat to put him in a mental hospital. Psychological services are often used as tools of social control rather than to promote health. A more appropriate warning might be that, if he does not behave so people are comfortable around him, he will end up in a residential care facility for the elderly. There, staff are (or should be) trained to deal with sexual harrassment. Maybe he wants some age appropriate company, and is alienating younger people in an effort to find what he really wants.
>
> Threats to use legal force, in my opinion, should be specific. His desires are not illegal. Soliciting prostitution is illegal, as is sexual battery, sexual assualt, or lewd and lascivious behavior, depending on your state and municipal laws. Legal boundaries are not contiguous with personal boundaries.
>
> If I have a thematic point here, it is that abuse breeds abuse, and that abuse of authority in response to sexual abuse forecloses opportunities to reach the heart of the problem. Looking at it with detachment, I would say treat it as an interpersonal problem with him rather than weilding ambiguous moral authority. But I can't say I would act that way if my feelings were involved.
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on August 14, 2000, at 19:33:39
In reply to Re: support » MisterB, posted by Kath on August 14, 2000, at 10:02:47
>However - when I laid out my boundaries to him,
> I WAS real & guess what! - he understood & I felt better than I usually
> feel when communicating with him!!Kathy,
I'm glad he understood and is treating this as a real incident and treating you as a valuable person. Just realize that if there is some sort of illness going on here that the problem may not go away until it's treated. If the behavior returns, remember that you are not to blame and that your feelings deserve to be respected.
Good luck
Posted by Billb on August 14, 2000, at 19:57:30
In reply to Re: support , posted by MisterB on August 13, 2000, at 18:01:28
> >MisterB, I hope that you are not condoning this (the abuse). I have read your post sevaral time and cannot tell, however I am a simple person. Your one statement concerened me, "on rare occassions when somebody violates those boundaries, I don't blame myself much but maybe I deal with guilt differently".
As you probably know, you do not have to accept anyone violating your boundaries. Period. Thoughts other than this could be incorrect. You deserve better than for anyone to violate your boundaries.
My thoughts are with you,
Regards,
Bill
Posted by Kath on August 14, 2000, at 20:03:01
In reply to Re: support , posted by Steeler Tookahn on August 14, 2000, at 19:33:39
Thanks Steeler,
We're going to be keeping an eye on him (or his sons are - I'M not) & this will be brought up with his doctor also. Thanks for your support.
I appreciate it. :-) Kath
> >However - when I laid out my boundaries to him,
> > I WAS real & guess what! - he understood & I felt better than I usually
> > feel when communicating with him!!
>
> Kathy,
> I'm glad he understood and is treating this as a real incident and treating you as a valuable person. Just realize that if there is some sort of illness going on here that the problem may not go away until it's treated. If the behavior returns, remember that you are not to blame and that your feelings deserve to be respected.
> Good luck
>
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