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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
I've been having a really rough week. Like, inside the black hole of self-hatred, kind of week. Slowly, I'm being dragged back out of it, by supportive Babblers and my Therapist. Today I actually noticed that the fog had cleared and the sun came out (weather, not my brain...Ok, maybe some of both!)
Anyway, I had a session today and I told my therapist about a horrible dream I had last night. In it I dreamed that I was being murdered. After discussing some of the other details, he asked, "do you see any of yourself in the murderer?" I said, "well, I hadn't thought about that aspect but certainly I have been unhappy with myself this week plus there is a part of me that is really frightened of what we have been talking about and would like the rest of me to keep it secret again. So, yeah, it could be me killing me." He then looked straight at me and very seriously asked if I had serious thoughts about killing myself this week. I said, "well, no, not really serious." He said, "but you have thought about it?" I hesitated for a long minute and admitted to the thoughts. (I couldn't lie to him with that gaze going on, he would have known!) He then asked me if I would tell him if I thought about it again...especially seriously. I told him I would try. He then asked me to tell him what I had been thinking...how I would do it, etc.
The conversation was almost surreal -- I didn't intend to have it. We were both so calm and so matter-of-fact. I wouldn't have told him at all if he didn't ask. I'm telling him about all the loose ends I'd have to tie up, all the responsibilities I'd have to make sure were taken care of, etc. I look at him and in my most professionally calm, directorish voice, said, "If I ever decided that this was the answer and I was done, I wouldn't F*** with it. I'd be done." He said, "So not a cry for help. But you'd call me first, right?"
I realized on my way home that I didn't ask what he would do if I did call him and say, "hey, I'm thinking about blah, blah."
So here is my question:
Have you had a similar discussion with your Therapist? What is their response?
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 19:37:40
In reply to Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
Yes, during the period when I was seriously depressed we had that type of discussion a heck of a lot. And he always wanted the promise, and I would never give it. It seemed sort of silly. And then one day I gave him the promise as a gift, and I will keep it for as long as he is my therapist.
I found I felt better when it wasn't such a deep dark taboo secret. It must have felt odd to admit to those things for the first time. I don't really remember the first time, I was too agitated, I'm sure. But it sounds as if your therapist handled it sensitively and skillfully.
How do you feel about it now?
Posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 19:45:32
In reply to Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
Oooohhhh yeah - I have had THAT talk with my T. And with my pdoc. Hence my hospital stay last summer. I've had the whole talk about how I would do it, how if I really wanted to die I wouldn't call anyone, b/c what would be the point? How obviously I didn't want to die because I was having that conversation (which would be my impression of your conversation as well...). How there would be so many loose ends to tie up before I could do it, though I guess it wouldn't ultimately matter to me, would it?
My T's response - I have her home phone number, her cell phone number, her office number, her email address. I have my pdoc's pager number, home phone, office phone and email as well. My T and I talked about when I would need to go to the hospital - signals to me that it wouldn't take much to push me over the edge. I don't promise to call, because I don't want to lie. But I have managed, for the most part, to be honest with both my T and my pdoc, because in reality, I don't want to die when I feel like that - I just don't want to continue that miserable existence. And there is definitely a difference.
I would expect that if you called your T and said, "I'm having thoughts of hurting myself," or something of that nature, he would probably try to gauge how close you are. (Do you have the means? Are you by yourself? Do you have a 'plan' - not just how, but when you are planning to do it?) And if he felt you were truly a danger to yourself, he would probably want you to go to the hospital. And if he thought you were okay after talking with him, he would probably want to see you sooner rather than later, if possible. Or call and check in with you periodically (my T did that). Or have you call and check in with him, leave him messages, things like that (my former T did that).
I'm very glad, Daisy, that you were able to be honest with him. That's an important conversation to have, and it is amazing how calm we can talk about such things when we have been so close recently. I do the same thing. Very matter-of-fact, as though I'm talking about someone else.
Are you okay tonight?
P
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 21:23:34
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » DaisyM, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 19:45:32
I feel pretty strange about the whole thing. Like I've been sick for awhile but am recovering. That weak, kind-of dizzy feeling. I find myself wondering what he thinks of me now...
And somehow, I almost feel like I should apologize. It sounds so "drama-queenish" -- definately not my usual style. But the conversation was not dramatic at all. I didn't feel threatened or judged, in fact, he made me feel safe. Isn't that weird in a conversation like that? I still am not sure how we got there...how he picked up those signals. I didn't realize I was giving them off. Then again, I've been in a fog.
See what multiple sessions do to you?!
We aren't nearly done with all this hard stuff so I'm a little nervous about next week. There is a big "anniversary" on Monday that I'm sure will trigger a down slide. He knows this and we have a plan. Still...I think I'm looking forward to March!
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 21:43:37
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 21:23:34
Nawwww, those of us who worry about being a drama queen make lousy drama queens. Don't worry about it.
Your therapist sounds a lot like my therapist, only a bit nicer.
(By the way, I'm doing much better - even cancelled my therapy session tomorrow. And only partly because I'm flat busted broke and busy at work besides.)
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 23:15:10
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 21:43:37
So you don't think he'll throw me out for this? I'm starting to worry. *sigh* I think I'm just tired.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 23:17:59
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 23:15:10
Daisy,
I'm so glad that the conversation was handled well, even if it did take you by surprise. I'm also so sorry that you are feeling so unhappy right now, but I'm glad to hear that it is lifting some. Your T sounds great.((((Daisy))))
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 3:01:11
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 23:15:10
Catch up on your sleep. I find it puts a lot of things back into perspective.
No, he won't throw you out for admitting something that people go into therapy to admit. He'll feel relieved that you agreed to speak about it and didn't deny it.
Sounds like he's willing to be there for you through this, Daisy.
Posted by lookdownfish on January 23, 2004, at 4:06:38
In reply to Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
I haven't had this conversation with my therapist, but I would like to. I feel like I would be over-dramatising. I think thinking about it is a far cry from actually planning to do it. Sorry you have been down on yourself, and I hope the fog is clearing.
Posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 8:08:56
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 23:15:10
Daisy,
I've had the conversation about thinking about hurting myself, thinking about killing myself, and even having a solid plan with a time schedule and complete intent to carry it out. The only good thing about that time was that the schedule was 3 years out - I have to get my daughter through high school first.
The conversations are a little strange, but I always felt that I just needed to keep telling her what was happening, and what I was thinking. I believe that it moderated the fear and feelings somewhat to talk about them. It made them less "crazy".
She used to make me promise to call her before I did something awful, and (after a fashion) I did promise. There was one day that she was about 2 minutes away from committing me to the hospital, though. I learned that when the thoughts and plans get out of my control that the hospital is a good place to be.
Unfortunately, I got pretty used to the thoughts (both of hurting and killing myself). I now don't get scared unless I have a real desire to act on those thoughts. I do try to take special care of myself when I am thinking that way, and if it comes back after being gone for a while I want to think that I mention it in therapy (hmm... I suppose I should mention that in therapy...). A Psychiatrist in the hospital discharged me while I was still having lots and lots of dangerous thoughts - he told me that I would be thinking that way for a long time and that I needed to find a way to manage it. He couldn't keep me in the hospital long enough (months or a year) for those thoughts to dissipate. He was right. It took a long time for them to go away, but they did eventually.
I don't get as freaked now as I used to, because I know that I can have the thoughts, but not act on them. The thoughts tell me that serious stuff is going on and that I need to deal with it seriously. If I don't, then I'll end back up in the hospital.
Your therapist would much rather have you talk about this than keep it a secret. Keeping this stuff a secret gives it much more power - talking about it really takes the power away. Write it down if you don't think you can say it with words outloud.
As long as you still ultimately want to live, you CAN deal with this. When you decide (even for just a minute) that you truly want to die, please call your therapist or go to the Emergency room right away.
I'm so sorry that you are hurting this much.
Posted by Speaker on January 23, 2004, at 8:28:11
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 8:08:56
Daisy,
I did have a conversation like that with my old T and at first he threatened hospitalization...my biggest fear. That made me want to escape more! Then as time went on we could talk openly about it. My new T is a bit more rigid and the most I have said to him is I want to go to Heaven. He told me that is normal since I long to see my first husband...he didn't get it but I knew better than to admit it. I hope the sun comes out in your life soon. (((((((Daisy))))))) Take care and keep us posted.
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 8:30:18
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 21:23:34
> But the conversation was not dramatic at all. I didn't feel threatened or judged, in fact, he made me feel safe. Isn't that weird in a conversation like that?
Not at all. I'm so glad he made you feel safe - that's what he was supposed to do! If you feel safe when talking to him about such a serious subject, then perhaps you will feel safe calling him when you need to, asking for help when you need to, etc.
It does indeed sound like he's there for you. Take advantage of that.
P
Posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 12:43:43
In reply to Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
Hi Daisy,
I caused a car accident that totaled my car. I wasn't physically hurt, except the air bag went off and to put it bluntly my face looked like a pepperoni and sausage pizza. I couldn't cover it with makeup.
Naturally, my therapist looked horrified and asked what happened. My response of "damn airbags," led to might it have been a suicide attempt.
She didn't come out and say, call me before this kind of "accident" happens again, she just reminded me that I can call her anytime I need her.
It came up again when I was in another car accident, which might have been my fault, but no one could determine who actually caused it. Good as my insurance company has me on their hate list.
Now my therapist asks "still being a safe driver?" I say yes, no accidents planned or otherwise.
Poet
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 13:13:22
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » DaisyM, posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 12:43:43
> I caused a car accident that totaled my car. I wasn't physically hurt, except the air bag went off and to put it bluntly my face looked like a pepperoni and sausage pizza. I couldn't cover it with makeup.
>
> Naturally, my therapist looked horrified and asked what happened. My response of "damn airbags," led to might it have been a suicide attempt.I was in a car accident not too long after starting therapy the first time that was my fault, and my car was totaled, though, thankfully, I wasn't hurt (and neither were the others involved). But I had a similar discussion with my T at the time - not so much with the thought that it might have been a suicide attempt but more along the lines of if I cared more about my life, would I have taken the risk? (I was turning left and was hit by another car that I didn't see, but I shouldn't have turned left just then - I was being careless.)
I think about that now - how when I'm feeling bad, I am more prone to take risks in cars, and I have to really focus on my driving more, so as to not endanger others...
P
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 13:20:08
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 13:13:22
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:11:17
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 3:01:11
Dinah,
I meant to tell you, I'm glad you are feeling better. What does it mean that you cancelled your appointment? Was that with your new Therapist? I hope not.
I understand broke! I can't imagine how different all this would be without really good insurance...and even then it gets pricey fast. I guess no new boots! *sigh*
Thanks for the reassurance. Sometimes I think, "oh my God, did I really say all that!" And then I wonder what he REALLY thinks. I said to him recently, "you are going to get sick of me." He said, "no, but maybe you'll get sick of me. Did you ever think of that?" I said, "nope, but I'll let you know if and when you become sickening. " *grin*
What would we do without smarta** humor in the middle of all of this?!
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:16:53
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by Speaker on January 23, 2004, at 8:28:11
A follow up question:
Did you ever talk about these thoughts with anyone other than your Therapist? Like a spouse? I can't imagine telling my husband all of this. He would freak. Especially since a lot of it is about him.
If you did, how did they take it?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 14:28:53
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:11:17
I'm proud of you for admitting those thoughts to your therapist. It sounds like you really have a great therapist. Not that you're in such bad shape that you need a great therapist. Or that you should look into finding a bad therapist, but I do have a number (home and office) of one if you're interested :) :) (And that gets 2)
I'm so proud of you for opening up and admitting that. I'm sure it was scary, but did you even think for a second about that dream being related to your recent thoughts? It's funny how things work like that, isn't it? And the reassurance you received from your therapist, how did that make you feel? Your posts sound better. I hope that the clouds in your head have thinned out a bit as well...As for your question...
I admitted to my therapist that I tried to commit suicide the previous night (and please don't post any support posts to me, I'm not depressed anymore and feeling much better :)) and he asked if my mood was any better (HELLO!!!!! I WAS SEVERELY DEPRESSED!!!!), to which I said, no not really. He got on the phone and called the hospital and had me committed. He gave me the option of being voluntarily or involuntarily committed. I chose to go voluntarily, as I knew I could talk my way out in 24 hours. I was released the next day. Saw him a few days later and he told me I was the first client he ever had put in the hospital....I'm not liking Bubba so much...
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 15:19:26
In reply to Have you told anyone else?, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:16:53
I haven't told anyone in nearly as much detail as my T and pdoc. And I won't. My family knows, due to my hospital stay last summer, that I've had suicidal thoughts, and they don't deal with it very well, esp. my grandmother. My parents kind of ignore that it ever happened. I don't have a spouse. My former roommate was the one who took me to the hospital, and she gets so stressed out over such things that I just don't mention it to her anymore. Another good friend of mine where I used to live actually held onto my meds for me for a while once when I was really down. But that became troublesome and I decided then and there that the only person I wanted holding my meds was my pdoc.
So, yes, I guess I have mentioned it to various people at times, tho' never in much detail, and now I wouldn't at all, unless I knew they would understand and handle it well, and the only people I know like that are folks I've met on babble. None of my real-life friends and none of my family are capable, IMO, of handling such info.
Oh - and I did mention to my former boss once that I had at times thought of suicide, when we were talking. I got sent to the employee assistance program (after having to talk to the HR lady) to see a counselor, even though I already HAD a therapist AND a pdoc! argh! It was a case of CYA.
P
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 15:25:35
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 14:28:53
Karen,
I've been following things (above) some and if I could be really bold -- I think when it gets hard in therapy for you, you find ways to undermine your trust and respect for your own Therapist (Case in point: refering to him as Bubba? Come on...)
I know that what you really believe, down deep, is that he has/is helping you. I know there have been slips but in the overall picture, you believe he is the correct guide for you. I know you have good reasons to be angry with him for past things, hospitalization is one of them. But, he acted in YOUR best interest, don't you think?
I must say that I'm glad my Therapist is older and has so much experience. But I'm older (NOT THAT OLD!!)My son's Therapist was pretty young though, and I loved him. So it is about matching.
So, how did it feel to tell him? In the moment, like it was the most normal thing in the world. He made me feel like he totally understood and even expected it. Later, thinking about it, it was scary and embarrassing. I don't know if I will bring it up again (the conversation) but my guess is that he will. I still can't figure out how we got there from the dream - I thought I was better at hiding parts of myself. Now that I might tell him. I would never have drawn that out from my dream. I almost didn't even tell him about it. I did note that it was interesting that he was absent from such a scary dream, even as an observer. He said he thought that meant that I'm still not really convinced that he can "rescue" me from all the pain...which is true. But, then again, I don't think anyone can.
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 15:26:17
In reply to Re: Admitting Thoughts » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 14:28:53
Truly though, Karen, if you actually made an *attempt* and then told your T and then followed that by saying that you weren't really feeling any better, he had no choice but to send you to the psych ward. It would have been irresponsible of him to not do so.
I've never attempted, but I certainly had a plan, the means, and a note when I was admitted to the hospital last summer. And while it sucked, and I hated much of the nursing staff and the pdoc I saw while there, I know that it saved my life.
I'm not saying that you would have tried again had you not gone to the hospital. But there's no way your T could have known that you wouldn't have attempted again, so he really did the right thing, though perhaps he went about it the wrong way.
And at least you were out the next day. I was there for a week - but I was honest with my 'captors' as well. Once I got there, I realized that if I left before it was safe for me to go, I might make an attempt. I couldn't trust my own self. :-(
Suffice it to say, I think you did the right thing by telling Bubba about the attempt, and I think Bubba did the right thing by sending you to the hospital.
But I still think he's an idiot.
P
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 16:07:08
In reply to Have you told anyone else?, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:16:53
The people in my life can't handle suicidal ideation. To the point where I can't ask my husband to hold my meds for me when it would take a lot of stress off of me if I knew they weren't there. He got so freaked out the time I asked, I won't do it again, or be honest with him.
So it's just between me and my therapist. And maybe Babble.
Posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 19:12:54
In reply to Have you told anyone else?, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 14:16:53
I've told my husband and dad and sister that I wanted to "hurt" myself. I didn't give them any details, and that seemed to be the right choice.
I've only wanted to die at one point - I think I only told my therapist. But I DID tell her. And I'm glad.
I think that the frequency and intensity of my thoughts and the amount of damage that would be inflicted are important indicators about how I'm doing. I think my therapist needs to know those things. But I don't think that it helps most other people to know the details - maybe just that you are feeling "hurtful" or "suicidal" - so they can help you get the help that you need.
Please don't keep these feelings to yourself - keeping them private can give them more importance than they need.
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 23:14:51
In reply to Re: Have you told anyone else? » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 19:12:54
I'll try to remember what you all said about talking about it and about having the thoughts and noticing how powerful they get.
I remember saying yesterday that it had never occured to me before all of this that "taking myself out of the equation" might be an option. And it still isn't a very strong or likely one. But now I *know* that ultimately I do hold the last card. And I never felt like I had that card in my hand to play before. And that freaks me out a little.
Please don't worry about this and me though. I didn't mean to frighten you or bring back bad memories for anyone.
Posted by Elle2021 on January 23, 2004, at 23:29:19
In reply to Admitting Thoughts - Caution, could trigger, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 19:28:16
> So here is my question:
>
> Have you had a similar discussion with your Therapist? What is their response?Yes, I have had the convo with both my pdoc and therapist. Neither one seem overly concerned with my suicidal ideation. They said they aren't worried because I have a "plan of action" when I start having these thoughts. That plan is: Take a Klonopin and go to sleep. Things always look better after I'm rested. Hope you feel better soon too.
Elle
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