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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:31:38
So, I went to see my therapist today. And he didn't say I looked beautiful again. At the end of the session I finally asked why he hadn't told me I looked beautiful for 2 weeks in a row. He said, "Well, if I keep telling you that you look beautiful it could open the door to boundary crossing. It starts as "You look beautiful today" then moves to "You look sexy today" then could lead to "Let's have sex." Hmmmm... Well, I argued that would never happen, as I always run anyway and he said that I don't know the state of his marriage. He doesn't do it to boost my self esteem, he does it to show me that men can make comments like that without seeing me as a lustfull object. I did get him to call me beautiful again today. And he admitted that he called me beautiful again today. He also asked why it was important that he call me beautiful, shouldn't my boyfriend do it, or myself. I told him that I have almost come to rely upon him to do it. He then said that he will continue to do it in the future, but it will not be every week. My question, if he knows that I manipulate people why does he allow me to manipulate him? If this is a serious concern for him, then why does he give in? He does it all the time, like me calling him daddy, which he said I couldn't do, but gave in once I persuaded him. I tell him all the time that he needs to stand his ground but he lets me persuade him. If I have a problem manipulating people why does he allow me to manipulate him, of all people? I just don't get it.....
Posted by zenn4 on December 2, 2003, at 14:47:45
In reply to Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:31:38
Because, therapists are people too, with their "stuff" and counter-transference. You should ask him why he lets you manipulate him. Does he think you are? If you don't want him to "give in", then why try?
Posted by joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 15:02:23
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by zenn4 on December 2, 2003, at 14:47:45
I'm sure I read the same thing he said about the regular compliments becoming a boundary crossing, but I can't remember where I read this. I wish I could remember because it came up in another sitch on here. Hmmm. The idea is that it can become a "slippery slope."
Do you know if he is getting supervision on his cases? You said he is a pretty new therapist, right?
Posted by joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 15:13:05
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 15:02:23
Even if the physical act itself would never occur, I think the basic idea is that even flirtation coming from the therp is unhealthy. (You can flirt all you want, not him.) Of course I don't remember where I read this....
Sometimes my female therapist says "hi cutie" but of course that is totally different than a male therp.
Only one time did my pdoc compliment my looks, and that was because I was feeling rejected about a breakup and asked him point blank if I was unattractive. He said I was very pretty and I didn't have to worry about that, you never know why people decide to reject you usually it has nothing to do with you, etc.
I could tell by the way he hesitated before he said I was very pretty that he felt like he was in unusual territory. I was basically fishing for compliments, plus this was on the phone, so I guess he made an exception. I don't think he would normally say I was beautiful on a regular basis. I don't think many male therps or pdocs would do that, there is such a sensitivity to lawsuits nowadays. Not that they would get sued just for that, but if somehow you could build a case based on this, that or the other, all little things leading down that slippery slope...
I guess my point is, I'm sure you are beautiful, and that his not telling you that anymore is not because you aren't beautiful, but because of therapeutic reasons.
Posted by joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 15:21:14
In reply to more..., posted by joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 15:13:05
Wait a minute, I just reread your post.
You wrote: "Well, I argued that would never happen, as I always run anyway and he said that I don't know the state of his marriage"
Uh oh, alarm going off for me. Am I reading this correctly? He actuall said to you, after you said it would never happen, "well, you don't know the state of my marriage."
Huh? Did he say in rebuttal to what you said, as if to say, don't be so sure it wouldn't happen, you don't know the state of my marriage.
I mean, is this getting into "my wife doesn't understand me" territory?
I am sure that male therps are not supposed to discuss the state of their marriage with female patients. If he is implying that he is in an unhappy marriage, I don't think that's appropriate at all. Inappropriate self-disclosure.
Have you read "In Session" There are a few case studies in there that would be really helpful for you I think.
Karen, I hope I misunderstood what you read, I am getting worried about this.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 2, 2003, at 15:26:05
In reply to Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:31:38
K, he sounds young. How old is he?
I thought the comment about the state of his marriage was a little odd.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 15:40:41
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 2, 2003, at 15:26:05
Ok, ok....
I'm trying to put into words how I interpreted what he said. Those were his words. But what I think he meant was that I don't know his home situation. I was saying that a harmeless comment such as "You look beautiful today" wouldn't lead to anything else. And he was saying that it could easily open the door to something else. He started into a big lecture about all types of boundary crossings on the part of therapists. I didn't take it as him saying "my marriage is crap" I took it as "You don't know what my home life is like, therefore I may be looking,I may not, you just couldn't know".... Do you understand??? He's never once made any comment about his wife or children to make me think that anything is wrong...... I hope I cleared that up.... Sorry to give the wrong idea :)
Posted by Poet on December 2, 2003, at 16:14:26
In reply to Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:31:38
I think he said the marriage statement to emphasize that the two of you are heading close to a boundary that is dangerous to cross.
Telling you are beautiful is a self-esteem boost, does he say it hoping you will recognize your inner and outer beauty on your own?
My therapist found ways to tell me that I'm intelligent for months on end, until I finally acknowledged it.
I would definitely discuss why he let's you manipulate him. What the psychological benefit is for you.
Poet
Posted by lookdownfish on December 2, 2003, at 16:21:10
In reply to Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 14:31:38
You are persuading him to pay you the compliment and also trying to tell him that he needs to stand his ground. Which of these options do you want most? It's a paradox, like, I would love my therapist to invite me out for a pizza, but if she actually did it, I would be horrified at her lack of discipline and boundary breaking. You're lucky you don't have someone really tough and mean like my therapist. She never says anything nice to me. Sorry I can't remember - is your guy a psychoanalytic therapist? They are not supposed to give you gratification, because that temporarily alleviates your pain and sense of deprivation, instead of getting to the bottom of it... and telling you you look beautiful is definitely gratification.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 16:44:31
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by zenn4 on December 2, 2003, at 14:47:45
> Because, therapists are people too, with their "stuff" and counter-transference. You should ask him why he lets you manipulate him.
Does he think you are?<<I will ask him next week. I'm sure he knows I do. We even spoke a bit about boundaries today, I brought it up. I told him I send thank you cards in a way to test my boundaries, to see if he'll tell me not to. (I don't send them everyday or anything, just once every couple of months or so)He just laughed and said he appreciated them. He just thinks it is funny. I try to be honest and he doesn't get it.
If you don't want him to "give in", then why try?
<<I do want him to give in, yet I don't. I need to test my boundaries. He knows I have a problem with manipulation. And I've told him many times that I need him to almost be "mean" to me. I know he can't do that, but he has to create boundaries and stick to them. But, when he creates boundaries, I fight them and he gives in every time. I understand we have to compromise aobut some things but if he can't hold true to something as petty as this, then when I really need him to stay strong how can I trust him to? I guess I test people too much, but it is really hard for me to trust people.
Posted by DaisyM on December 2, 2003, at 17:53:34
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again » zenn4, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 16:44:31
>>it is really hard for me to trust people
Karen,
Here is the problem, would be my guess. He may be trying to create a safe, non-threatening space for you, because this is typically the first task when working with someone with issues such as yours. You can't explore really painful things if you don't trust that you can get what you need (not necessarily want). Maybe you just don't know yet what you need to feel safe. So far what you've worked on what you want, which is to create a fun environment with a daddy.
He is probably letting you do these things for 2 reasons: 1) it is the fastest way to get off the topic, give in and move on. and 2) I read somewhere that one technique for compliments is to ask what the person wants to hear - and then say just that. This then makes them responsible for the word choice as well as the "what" to compliment. So they maintain the control.
Did you print out last week's post and take it in?? If not, can you see that using up your time over the compliment issue allowed you to not say the things you said here -- right?
I'm not trying to be a task master. I TOTALLY understand how hard it is to go back to hard topics. I guess you will when you are "ready". But you sound ready here -- and in order to avoid making "demands" on you (like your dad in the past) I don't think your Therapist is going to "make" you stay on topic. This is what you are going to have to do for yourself. Even if it is you saying, "I really need your help to start and stay on this track."
FYI, I had a friend who is a retired Therapist say all of this to me in a loving, supportive way, when I was avoiding my real "stuff" at the beginning of Therapy. I think I was telling her how hard all the details were for me. She just kept saying, "and how much time did that take away from the REAL issue?" It did make me think.
Just so you know, you've never looked more beautiful than you do right here -- words are the windows to our soul.
-D
Posted by Joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 20:55:57
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again » zenn4, posted by Karen_kay on December 2, 2003, at 16:44:31
Wow Karen, I think you are so much more insightful about yourself than you realize. I''ve had similar feelings with my pdoc when I yearn for the boundaries to be crossed yet realize at the same time that it would hurt me terribly if they were ever crossed.
I don't know the answer. I guess keep thinking, keep writing here.
It could be that maybe you would prefer someone with firmer boundaries, who keeps them consistent. For him to say you are beautiful, then to say later, oh I should stop that it's boundary crossing...well, do you think it may have helped if he had decided the approach right from the start instead of changing it midstream? These are all things you can talk about next session if you want.
I appreciate your honesty, since you have mentally/conversationally tested boundaries I have wondered about too. Maybe I am having a transference on your transference? What would that be, a transference transference?
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 13:50:26
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 2, 2003, at 15:26:05
> K, he sounds young. How old is he?
<<<Hmmm... I would say mid 30's.. Perfecto! :) And I clarified the marriage comment. Sometimes the actual meaning doesn't come across well on the screen. I forget that. Sorry for the confusion!
Karen
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 13:58:53
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again » Karen_kay, posted by Poet on December 2, 2003, at 16:14:26
> I think he said the marriage statement to emphasize that the two of you are heading close to a boundary that is dangerous to cross.
<<I agree. I do find it odd, however that he only referred to his possible actions. I have never once seriously considered that he might possibly be interested in me. I would understand that he may want to stop saying somethign like that, as it may be "leading my fantasy on" or something silly like that, but his comment just kinda threw me for a loop.
> Telling you are beautiful is a self-esteem boost, does he say it hoping you will recognize your inner and outer beauty on your own?
<<He has always said that he tells me that to show me that men can see me as a beautiful woman without seeing me in a lustful way (as in saying I'm beautiful, but not making a pass at me). That is what he says. Does that make sense? It did at the time. I don't need any help with my self-esteem (at least I don't think I do), adn I've asked him aobut it. He agrees. Maybe he thinks I do and he just isn't telling me? Do they work like that, therapists that is?
> My therapist found ways to tell me that I'm intelligent for months on end, until I finally acknowledged it.<<Your posts sound very intelligent, it is time you realized you are too!
Thanks for the input!!
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 14:15:54
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by lookdownfish on December 2, 2003, at 16:21:10
<<I don't persuade him to, I wait until he doesn't and then ask why. As much as I would like to hear him say I'm beautiful, I'd rather him stand his ground and set firm boundaries for once. That is what I need. So often, people give in to me and I need someone who won't. And that is why I ask him about it. To see how he will answer. To see if I can get him to change his mind. And he does every time. I'm not sure if he does it just to get me to move on, or if he thinks that it is important to me. What is important is that he does what he says. And he isn't. So, how can I trust him? I know I'm wasting a lot of time doing this (Daisy M are you reading this? :)] but, it says a lot about how much I've been hurt in the past too. This is a lot of my problem. He should know this by now, shouldn't he? Ummmm.. he is CBT by the way. I actually censor a lot of what I tell him because I want to look good, perfect. I don't want him to know what I'm thinking all of the time, most of the time, any of the time.
> You are persuading him to pay you the compliment and also trying to tell him that he needs to stand his ground. Which of these options do you want most? It's a paradox, like, I would love my therapist to invite me out for a pizza, but if she actually did it, I would be horrified at her lack of discipline and boundary breaking. You're lucky you don't have someone really tough and mean like my therapist. She never says anything nice to me. Sorry I can't remember - is your guy a psychoanalytic therapist? They are not supposed to give you gratification, because that temporarily alleviates your pain and sense of deprivation, instead of getting to the bottom of it... and telling you you look beautiful is definitely gratification.
>
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 14:16:57
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 14:15:54
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 14:37:02
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 2, 2003, at 17:53:34
Daisy,
The comment is no longer important to me. I do need to start dealing with things. I have said it so many times before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times again before I actually do. But, time is running short.
You are right, I didn't read my post. I was afraid to. I'm afraid my therapist doesn't care. I know, he shouldn't have to care aobut me to help me. But, i have a hard time opening up to anyone. No one knows the real me! No one ever cares about what I have to say. My parents never did. My friends don't, unless it's funny or pertains to them in some way. My boyfriend is constantly telling me to shut up. It just seems that no one wants to know what is going on inside my head. Hell, even I don't want to know. I can't even keep track. I don't want to be some sympathy case for anyone to feel sorry for. And I don't want to be cold. But, I'm afraid I am. I just wish i could start my life all over again. With different parents, parents who loved me and took care of me. Is that really too much to ask? It just seems so overwhelming at times. Like I have so much on my plate, I don't know where to start. It's funny, the only reason I'm going to school is so that my mom will be proud of me. And she's not helped me out a bit. She's never once told me she's proud of me. I just feel like I'm living my life for everyone else but me. I guess maybe that's why I'm in this mess, huh?
Thanks so much for your continued support hun! But, these words don't make me look so beautiful now, do they?
Karen
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 15:02:18
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again » Karen_kay, posted by Joslynn on December 2, 2003, at 20:55:57
What would that be, a transference transference?
<<Umm.. I'm not exactly sure what it would be. It wouldn't be countertransference, but I'm not sure if it would be transference transference either. You may want to look it up! :)<<It really started bugging me, so I called my therapist. Now, I wish I hadn't. I just feel like a jerk. And I hate feeling like a jerk. I admitted that I was testing him in a big way, to see if he would stand his ground. He said he handled the situation as he would any other situation with any other client. He said that in the future, if I were depressed and needed help boosting my self esteem then he would say that I am a beautiful woman. We seemed to argue. He then asked if I would just rather him not call me beautiful at all. I said I would rather him call me beautiful all the time, but that is not the point. I told him I felt like he just gave in to my demands, like so many other people. He says he didn't, that this is how he would handle other cases. I told himI'm not around those other cases. I think he finally saw my point. I admitted that I waste a lot of time and he agreed. So, next week, he's going to try to not let me waste so much time and I'm going to try not to waste so much time. Hmmmm... we'll see about that :)
Karen
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 3, 2003, at 15:15:16
In reply to Rang the therapist, posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 15:02:18
Karen, Good Lord, I really admire your courage! I too feel like no one really knows the "real" me and my friends only listen when they have some sort of self-interest in the conversation.
I think your posts are so insightful, intelligent, and sometimes humerous. Just my type of friend!
I think your therapist is lucky to have you, especially since he sounds fairly new. He will learn a lot from someone like you.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 15:28:00
In reply to Re: Rang the therapist, posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 3, 2003, at 15:15:16
Miss Honey,
It seems you always know the right thing to say to cheer me up. Thank you sweetie! I don't think I have courage, just a big mouth and no ball gag! Ha ha :) It's funny though, whenever I say "Something from last session is bothering me" he always thinks it is something big. I always sweat the small stuff.Yeah, he just might learn a thing or two from me. I'm just afraid of what he'll learn. I'm a hypochondriac, I think. Yesterday I asked him "Is there somethign wrong with me?" He was like "Well, you're here" I'm convinced at this point I'm a sociopath or something. Good grief, I hope not!
Thanks again sweetheart! I answered your post! Read it! Karen
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2003, at 16:05:46
In reply to Rang the therapist, posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 15:02:18
I think it's great you called him and called him on his giving in to you. It sounds as if he is seeing your problem as a lack of self esteem, and that the solution is for him to reassure you. Hmmmm...
I tend to get an uneasy feeling from your posts, that maybe your therapist is enjoying himself a bit too much as opposed to keeping the therapeutic boundaries firm even when it's difficult. But maybe he thinks you need that at this point. If you feel you've moved past that, I'm really glad you can tell him so.
(And print out that post and read it to him. It was a great post. Very vulnerable and honest. I know it's scary but reading posts is how I opened up a lot of my early difficult conversations with my therapist.)
Posted by lookdownfish on December 3, 2003, at 16:06:35
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 14:15:54
It's about respect. Sounds like you are testing him out and he's failing the test, so you're having trouble respecting him. I guess there must be a reason you try to have control over him. It sounds like something we do in childhood, testing boundaries. (My 3 year old does it with me all the time, and usually wins I'm afraid). Maybe your parents didn't keep boundaries very well, so you learnt strategies to get your way, and this has formed a part of your personality. Sorry if I'm way off, just talking off the top of my head. By the way, I don't think you're wasting time going through this with your therapist, as it's obviously an important issue for you.
Posted by DaisyM on December 3, 2003, at 16:07:28
In reply to Rang the therapist, posted by Karen_kay on December 3, 2003, at 15:02:18
Karen,
Good for you! You've opened the door, now walk through it. Take your posts, (the last one to me was so touching!) and read them. Or, at the very least, give them to him. He DOES care about you, otherwise he wouldn't try to explain why he did what he did in session, and, he wouldn't care if you were bothered by something.
Doing things for yourself is so hard, especially when we have been "trained" to please everyone else. Even the friends we truly like. My son's Therapist use to ask me, "so, how are you taking care of yourself?" And, I would say, oh, I'm fine. Of course, that wasn't an answer. I finally realized that I have no idea how to take care of myself -- I know how to solve problems. Other people's problems mostly. I'm guessing you are good at this too. You always have a kind word to say here for everyone and you make us smile. (I now do EVERYTIME I walk upstairs!)
Don't be too hard on yourself. You are getting there. You are moving into the hard stuff. There is no wrong or right way or timing.
And, I still think you are beautiful, even if you words are about sadness and frustration.
Posted by panic_attack on December 7, 2003, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by lookdownfish on December 2, 2003, at 16:21:10
my friend is a therapist and he slept with one of his patients. He got really drunk and now he feels horrible about it. He is beating himself up. What could happen to him?
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2003, at 13:16:15
In reply to Re: Therapist gives in once again, posted by panic_attack on December 7, 2003, at 13:00:36
An awful lot. He should contact his attorney at once.
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