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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 363 to 387 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan - meant to be decorating today and avoiding the computer...but couldn't resist looking up this link...
Austistic children have problems maintaining their sulphate levels, and so have problems detoxifying. They also have problems digesting because the hormone CCK needs sulphate to activate it. CCK is needed for the release of vasopressin and oxytocin.
Dose response of arginine vasopressin to the CCK-B agonist pentagastrin.
Abelson JL, Le Melledo J, Bichet DG.
University of Michigan Department of Psychiatry, Anxiety Disorders Program, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.
Cholecystokinin (CCK) is a peptide neurotransmitter that modulates hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis activity and may be involved in fear or anxiety states. Arginine vasopressin (AVP) also modulates HPA axis activity and may play a role in fear conditioning. Few human studies have examined interactions between CCK and AVP systems. To explore relationships between CCK-B receptor activation, the HPA axis response, and AVP release, a dose-response study using the CCK-B receptor agonist pentagastrin was conducted. Adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) and cortisol results have been previously reported and AVP data is presented here. Thirty-five healthy subjects were randomly assigned to receive placebo, or 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, or 0.8 microg/kg doses of pentagastrin. AVP release appeared to increase with increasing doses of the CCK-B agonist. However, this may have been due to a greater percentage of subjects releasing AVP in the higher dose groups, rather than a direct effect of dose on magnitude of response. AVP and ACTH responses were correlated, but AVP response alone could not account for the magnitude of the ACTH response. AVP release was significantly correlated with anxiety symptom responses. These findings suggest a possible role for the CCK-B receptor in AVP release, which may be at least partially separate from its role in modulation of the HPA axis. Further work is needed to determine whether these are physiologically meaningful interactions and to determine their functional implications
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 4:05:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 27, 2004, at 15:46:17
> Ray, can you help me with this kinesiology concept? You are not the first person whose opinion I respect who trusts kinesiology. But my mind just can't grasp the science of it. If there was some sort of scientific explanation... I had a flaky woman (not flaky because of kinesiology - just flaky in general) once hold a bottle of some supplement up to me (through my coat and clothes if I remember correctly) and then made me hold my thumb and first finger together and she used the effort to pull them apart as the determining factor as to whether or not I needed the supplement. She wasn't very impressive, to say the least. But I have heard of so many trustworthy people relying on it to completely discredit it. Thanks in advance.
> Simus
>Thanks Simus! I saw around 5 or 6 kinesiologists before I found one I was happy with. Kinesiology isn't a therapy itself, more a feedback tool to let the body give answers to questions asked of it (does sound flaky, sorry!). The reliabilty of it is only as good as the person asking the qestions - and is also reliant on the clarity of the patient's body about their condition. Some kinesiologists do use that finger test, but I would trust one finger test to give a supplement - it's too open to bias from the practitioner - it's very easy to will something to work.
The kinesiology I use requires arm, leg, skin pinch, tongue, neck, arm & leg length tests, eyes open and closed, before a supplement is given - the body is also given the chance to say 'i don't know' to any of these tests, as well as yes or no.
I really feel you need around an hour and a half for each session - personally, I've found it takes a lot of sessions to start to see a pattern developing.
Hope that wasn't too confusing!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 4:52:43
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
Hi Ray,
Hope your decorating went well. and thanks for all your help, you've somehow come across the two things my body doesn't seem to handle normally probably, NO/nitrates/nitrites and sulphates/sulphites which is interesting, and I've come across CCK before too, although I've never looked at it ..and I'll need more time and probably a better brain to work it out. I'd read about aquaporins just b4 you mentioned them in that book I told you about "Review of Medical Physiology" by Ganong. There are 5 types apparently, one in the brain too..
I've been on uni study break for exams, so I figure I'd better start studying now as exams are next week..twas no use in the past week or so anyway as my memory wouldn't work for that long!(true<g>). I have good results so far..but I can't remember a thing..oh except osmosis and kidneys<g>
So I'm drinking again....do they have a waterholics anonymous(an AA equivalent)? I can't stop drinking..but I need to drink so I can concentrate and sleep.<g> I do understand that the lower blood pressure /higher plasma osmalility can stimulate ADH..but there has to be a limit to how high one can make one's plasma osmalality.
I'll go over your posts in more detail and attempt some replies after the exams.Thanks for helping, really appreciated,you throw up some interesting ideas,
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:12:25
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan, good luck with your studying - just came across this abstract that seemed to tie in a lot of the things you are talking about. Superoxide excess seems to be a common thread in inhibiting the vasodilation and sodium balance in the kidney. Nitric oxide turns from a vasodilator to a vasoconstrictor when it combines with superoxide to form peroxynitrite - you didn't say what you had at the dentist, but if it was nitrous oxide, it might have been able to form peroxynitrite too - nitrites in bacon can definitely produce peroxynitrite.
Just found out that sulfites can trigger NADPH oxidase, and produce superoxide - seems to fit the pattern quite well! NADPH is needed for glutathione formation (nitric oxide, dopa, serotonin, steroid hormone synthesis, noradrenaline and folate activation!), so to lose too much is disasterous.
If you think this relates to you, arginine might be beneficial, but healing the endothelium cells to allow proper vasodilation to occur (not forgetting dealing with superoxide). I've used Venocap by Thorne research to help my endothelial cells - it contains, witch hazel, horse chestnut, butchers broom, gotu cola, grape seed extract. Lar gave me a link to an article by Dr Pall on peroxynitrite on a recent thread.
Nitric oxide, oxidative stress, and progression of chronic renal failure.
Modlinger PS, Wilcox CS, Aslam S.
Division of Nephrology and Hypertension, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC 20007, USA.
Cellular injury or organ dysfunction from oxidative stress occurs when reactive oxygen species (ROS) accumulate in excess of the host defense mechanisms. The deleterious effect of ROS occurs from 2 principal actions. First, ROS can inactivate mitochondrial enzymes, damage DNA, or lead to apoptosis or cellular hypertrophy. Second, nitric oxide (NO), which is a principal endothelial-derived relaxing factor, reacts with superoxide anion (O2-) to yield peroxynitrite (ONOO-), which is a powerful oxidant and nitrosating agent. The inactivation of NO by O2- creates NO deficiency. Oxidative stress can promote the production of vasoconstrictor molecules and primary salt retention by the kidney. Several hypertensive animal models showed increased activity of nicotine adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADPH) oxidase, which is the chief source of O2- in the vessel wall and kidneys. NO regulates renal blood flow, tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF), and pressure natriuresis. Animal models of NO deficiency develop hypertension, proteinuria, and glomerulosclerosis. Evidence is presented that chronic renal failure (CRF) is a state of NO deficiency secondary to decreased kidney NO production and/or increased bioinactivation of NO by O2-. Patients with CRF show decreased endothelium-dependent vasodilatation to acetylcholine, have increased markers of oxidative stress, and diminished antioxidant activity. Therapy for oxidative stress has focused on antioxidants and agents that modify the renin-angiotensin system. The effects of such treatments are more compelling in animal models than in human studies.
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
In reply to Do conversions along pathways go both ways?, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 17:25:16
Hi again Jan! thanks for that info - do you think the catecholamines are included in that two way thing too? Phenylalanine to tyrosine - as phenylalanine is an essential amino acid and we must get it from the diet I'm not so sure. DOPA decarboxylase to dopamine, would need a carboxylase enzyme to work the other way. Do you think there is some reverse flow traffic? I know we tend to see things in black and white, but sometimes things aren't so clear cut!!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:29:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:16:00
> So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
any carboydrate, fat or protein can in theory metabolise to glutamate as glutamate is a by product of the energy cycle - glutamine is one step, other chemicals are several more steps - sorry not to give a straight answer!
Ray
Posted by Simus on October 29, 2004, at 16:08:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 4:05:09
> The kinesiology I use requires arm, leg, skin pinch, tongue, neck, arm & leg length tests, eyes open and closed, before a supplement is given - the body is also given the chance to say 'i don't know' to any of these tests, as well as yes or no.
Thanks, Ray. By the way, you say "a supplement is given". How is it given? I assume that you don't ingest it, or you could only do one test a day. So do you put it under your tongue, hold it against your skin...?
Simus
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 20:33:47
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
> Hi again Jan! thanks for that info - do you think the catecholamines are included in that two way thing too? Phenylalanine to tyrosine - as phenylalanine is an essential amino acid and we must get it from the diet I'm not so sure. DOPA decarboxylase to dopamine, would need a carboxylase enzyme to work the other way. Do you think there is some reverse flow traffic? I know we tend to see things in black and white, but sometimes things aren't so clear cut!!
>
> Rayhttp://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/hsa/hsa00400.html
If you click on the ovals you get pathways say for tyrosine metabolism.I guess you can see where some paths are bidirectional.
(doesn't look more difficult than something out of a car manual)Maybe some only go one way..as far as the enzymes go, but then if you alter he concentration gradients it should encourage alternative pathways of metabolism. Maybe that is the effect I see, taking one thing would maybe in theory at least encourage buildup in previous substrates?(not sure of right word)..but that would give an appearance of backwards flow.
Doesn't appear to have inhibitors on these pathways though which are just as important.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 20:50:57
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
>I'm a bit confused as to the link between glutamine and glucosamine? I had a quick look and couldn't see it.
OK I found it I think..top line of this
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00251.htmlso that kinda has something to do with G6PD(or something close) I think?
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 21:19:47
In reply to Re: Do conversions along pathways go both ways? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:24:34
OK I looked up what is needed maybe in the pathways
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html
"AND CLICKING on 1.14.15.6
Oxidoreductases
Acting on paired donors with incorporation of molecular oxygen
With a reduced iron-sulfur protein as one donor, and incorporation
of one atom of oxygen"so as well oxygen maybe I need iron-sulfur...there's that sulfur again!!!! (and iron)
OK so for sulfur I need TMG, NAC, NAG ??
I guess something like magnesium sulfate is different?? I have epsom salt baths but they always make me very tired after..actually usually drift in and out of sleep in the bath. Note sure if that's the sulfates or just the relaxation.
Lar mentioned sulfur stuff to me last year too re thyroid hormones.Another cholesterol path
http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00120.html
needs that NADPH again and oxygen
"With NADH or NADPH as one donor, and incorporation of one atom of
oxygen"
I thought that CoQ10 (ubiquinone) should be somewhere around cholesterol too? as the drugs that inhibit cholesterol synthesis also stop CoQ10 synthesis? But I can't find the link there.Jan
Posted by karaS on October 29, 2004, at 22:32:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:29:06
> > So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
>
> any carboydrate, fat or protein can in theory metabolise to glutamate as glutamate is a by product of the energy cycle - glutamine is one step, other chemicals are several more steps - sorry not to give a straight answer!
>
> Ray
Ok, but don't do it again!K :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 8:40:40
In reply to Cholesterol metabolism ? Lar » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 21:19:47
> OK I looked up what is needed maybe in the pathways
> http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html
> "AND CLICKING on 1.14.15.6
> Oxidoreductases
> Acting on paired donors with incorporation of molecular oxygen
> With a reduced iron-sulfur protein as one donor, and incorporation
> of one atom of oxygen"
>
> so as well oxygen maybe I need iron-sulfur...there's that sulfur again!!!! (and iron)Oxygen is the second most reactive element of them all....more so than is chlorine (from electronegativity standpoint). Fire is an uncontrolled oxygenation chain reaction. Currently, the atmosphere contains about 17% oxygen. If it got up to 22%, it would be impossible to put out fires with water (itself burned hydrogen), as the exothermic reactions would not be cooled enough by the heat absorption capacity of water (specific heat), and the latent heat of vapourization.
The point is, our bodies work only because Mother Nature has learned how to slow fire down, to control it somewhat. Sulphur loves oxygen. Oxidative stress depletes sulphur compounds in the body.
> OK so for sulfur I need TMG, NAC, NAG ??
TMG remethylates one particular sulphur compound, homocysteine, but it is not a source of sulphur.
Common sulphur sources are methionine, SAMe, cysteine, taurine, creatine (a tripeptide with methionine). NAC is N-acetyl-cysteine, so it is a source. MSM too.
> I guess something like magnesium sulfate is different?? I have epsom salt baths but they always make me very tired after..actually usually drift in and out of sleep in the bath. Note sure if that's the sulfates or just the relaxation.
More likely the magnesium. It is taken in transcutaneously, though only slightly. Sulphates are not a good metabolic source of sulphur, as they're already fully oxidized (SO4--).
>
> Lar mentioned sulfur stuff to me last year too re thyroid hormones.
>
> Another cholesterol path
> http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00120.html
> needs that NADPH again and oxygen
> "With NADH or NADPH as one donor, and incorporation of one atom of
> oxygen"
>
>
> I thought that CoQ10 (ubiquinone) should be somewhere around cholesterol too? as the drugs that inhibit cholesterol synthesis also stop CoQ10 synthesis? But I can't find the link there.
>
> JanThe statin drugs do block CoQ10. That may be the mechanism of some of the side effects. You're likely going to see recommendations to supplement CoQ10 with statin drugs.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:21:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
> Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
I was a little slow getting back to this, but here I am.
> >Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
>
> Yes that sounds a good idea, although I seem to be doing amazingly well just upregulating the enzymes. Have you heard about the kynurenine pathway that breaks down tryptophan to niacin?I really doubt that significant amounts of tryptophan are shunted via this pathway. There are substantial opportunities for negative feedback (inhibition).
> Tryptophan metabolites at the start of the pathway seem to be neuroprotective, but as the pathway nears niacin, metabolites like quinolinic acid are highly neurotoxic - seems like niacin/naicinamide can provide negative feedback to this pathway.
Without doubt, they do.
> >Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
>
> I seem to do better on niacinamide rather than NADH - if fact I feel very little with NADH, which is surprising considering how important it is to the pathways we've been discussing. I'm guessing that maybe I need the large dose of niacinamide to inhibit the parp molecule I mentioned before. Parp seems to be involved in the pathogenesis of many diseases - for example this abstract finds that inhibiting parp can stop homocysteine induced blood vessel damage.Thanks for bringing PARP back to my attention. I need reminders of why I use my supps.....absent-minded professor type. I often don't remember what I need to remember for self-care, until someone triggers me to think about it again.
This abstract is quite on point:
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:25:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
> Hi Kara,
>
> Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
>
> I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?Do you remember where you got it? And the biopterin?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:31:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
> Tyrosine is also the precursor to T4 and T3, T4 has four iodines added, and T3 has four added and one taken away. So I wonder if the tyrosine gives your thyroid a boost...heres a bit about thyroid and pain threshold..
>
> "A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold. The susceptible patient perceives as painful stimuli that aren't painful to other people.That's called allodynia.
> The pain results from too little thyroid hormone regulation of certain nerve cells. Some of the cells, mainly in her spinal cord, when under-regulated by thyroid hormone, release excess amounts of "substance P." The excess substance P then amplifies the transmission of "pain" impulses in the central nervous system."
I've only ever seen models based on NMDA amplification. I have hyperalgesia and allodynia, but not disturbed thyroid function (at least, not diagnosed). Hyperalgesia and allodynia are often linked with chronic fatigue syndrome and PTSD. This is thought-provoking.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:41:19
In reply to Re: licorice » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:33:14
> Hi Larry,
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the test?
>
> > One simple test of adrenal stress is to try some licorice. Do not use DGL, though. That is De-Glycyrrhizinated Licorice.I hope you're still around to see this answer.
Licorice root has the effect of creating an illusion that the adrenal output is higher than it really is. It does so by increasing the half-life of cortisol. This could have two possible observable effects, if adrenal output was bad before the licorice. If adrenal output is unstable or fluctuating (what some call sputtering), licorice will stabilize both mood and energy somewhat. If adrenal output was stable but low, the energy and mood will gradually improve. If licorice makes you feel wired, jumpy, or anxious, then it's likely that there wasn't a problem with the adrenals to begin with. It takes a good four to six weeks of licorice use to determine the outcome.
> What would be the "something" that would be noticeable when taking licorice that would indicate the adrenal stress?
See above.
> Good to see you are still here, btw. :) I've been away for quite a few months myself, but now I'm thinking that I need to check in here as much as I need to do other things as it helps me to keep thinking in terms of solutions and to be motivated.
>
> JLHad a little slump, myself. Still vulnerable to external influences. We teach each other what useful and helpful. Gotta love that.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:45:12
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
> My regimen is this (and has been now for 2 weeks ish). At night before bed and all at once, selenium 200mcg, zinc 15mg, B6 100mg, ginkgo biloba 120mg and lithium orotate 120mg....in the morning I've been taking 500mg n acetyl cysteine.
>
> I've actually been feeling a little more motivated, but extremely tired and very emotional and "wired" its making me question if anything i'm taking may be the cause. Also feeling very "disconnected" at the moment too and extremely short tempered and irritable.Could be the ginkgo. Also, taking B6 without other B's is not a good idea. Get a B complex, and take it in addition to the B6, or instead of it altogether. You might find that additional niacinamide smoothes you out a bit.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:52:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » JLx, posted by karaS on September 25, 2004, at 19:40:26
> > I just ran across this recently and don't recall seeing pantithine and molybedenum recommended for candida before.
> >
> > The Candida/Aldehyde detox pathway and the Molybdenum Connection, http://www.candidapage.com/aldehyde.shtml
> >
> > "By upping body levels of a body enzyme, pantethine counteracts brain fog, certain allergic sensitivities, and some consequences of alcoholism. (And here it is --) ... In people with candidiasis, the enzyme fights off a toxic byproduct called acetaldehyde, which is thought to cause brain fog, often-suffered but rarely diagnosed...."
>
> I've never heard of pantethine before. Sounds like it's worth a try. I believe that I have a problem or shortage concerning some enzymes.Pantothenic acid is vitamin B5. It's an essential supplement for adrenal function/adrenal stress, along with vitamin C. Just because it's recommended for candida problems doesn't mean that's why it works, eh?
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/pa/
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 9:58:07
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » karaS, posted by raybakes on September 26, 2004, at 5:00:37
> Your neighbour could be borderline hashimoto's because the early stages of hashimoto's a lot of the thyroid hormones are normal. Also in the early stages of hashimoto's stress hormones are increased, so as long as the adrenals hold out, energy levels might be OK for a while. Looking at great smokies thyroid test, there are levels of thyroid antibodies that are within the normal range - does your neighbour know her levels?
Another issue with Hashimoto's is the controversial idea that it can remit. Yet another is that it involves different tissues in different ways, i.e. peripheral conversion of thyroid hormone may be unaffected (no symptoms of thyroid deficiency) while at the same time central regulation is out of control, i.e. hypothalamus and pituitary fail to sense true thyroid hormone concentration.
Managing thyroid problems is art, not science, IMHO.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:05:03
In reply to Supps Part II..... Lithium, magnesium » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:40:33
> Re the orotate form..I asked lar about this somewhere...
> he wan't too happy about orotates in general I think
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256465.htmlLet it not be said that old dogs, errrr, opinionated geeks, errrr, have immutable opinions. I am finding that lithium orotate works fairly well as a companion to selegiline.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:12:24
In reply to More jokes, licorice » JLx, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 5:34:46
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61897.1
>
> re licorice..be careful I'm not sure exactly what it does..it does increase both cortisol and estrogen and ACTH?The ACTH decreases, if adrenal fatigue was present. It also disturbs testosterone production, which is important to both sexes. Testosterone feedback regulates leutenizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone, and prolactin. It all gets quite complicated.
http://www.gardenoflight.net/Site2/Research_Center/library/ConsHerbs/Print/Licoricech.html
Glycine may counteract the tendency to pseudoaldosteronism. Potassium loss in urine may be increased by licorice. Moderation, and only using it for relatively short periods, are important considerations.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:15:35
In reply to What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do? (nm), posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:01:48
One thing it does is recycle glutathione.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:26:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
> >
> > > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> > >
> > Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
> >
> > Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
> >
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
> Ray,
>
> (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
>
> I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
>
> SimusYou ought to know that ACTH deficiency is a hypothalamic/pituitary defect, not adrenal. What it is is a failure to signal the adrenals to provide proper hormone output. The treatment is often adrenal replacement, because that's easier. There is likely nothing wrong with the adrenals, though. They just weren't being told to work.
http://www.ohsuhealth.com/pituitary/patients/hormone.asp
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:28:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:34:37
> I'm still confused about my neighbor's condition. She doesn't have adrenal fatigue symptoms at all. She's thinking possibly hyperpituitary is her real problem. Maybe she's right.
>
> KaraHyperpituitary syndromes are really relatively common, usually due to benign tumours.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 10:43:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 16:10:34
> Thanks, Ray. Someone recently posted an article about how deficient most of us are in Vitamin D and how closely related that is to depression. The article said that you could take huge doses of Vit. D without any adverse effects. Then I read another article that said you can overdose on D and it doesn't take much. What do you think should be an optimal dosage?
Expect that the RDA for vitamin D will be substantially increased. It is very difficult to overdose on vitamin D, and many reports of vitamin toxicity have a political base, rather than a scientific one. The idea that you can obtain an optimal vitamin or mineral intake from food alone is specious.
The optimal intake of vitamin D is about 4000 IU/day.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11157326
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15225842Lar
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