![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 194 to 218 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:10:33
In reply to Re: Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.......... » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:06:53
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:40:33
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
Hi again
Here is something on lithium for starters
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030818/msgs/253241.html
and the following replyMany people on lithium for long periods end up hypothyroid..some on the thyroid board take it as they have too much thyroid hormones, but I don't think that is really the best solution..but they are already on it
Re the orotate form..I asked lar about this somewhere...
he wan't too happy about orotates in general I think
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256465.htmlStill others seem to like it..I think (milenium9ui)Bob is taking it...not sure though...probably better to get feedback from those who do take it..some I think Barabaracat? swear by it..just giving the negative side I guess
also if you could get some magnesium.(.I got a magnesium citrate in England)....that would be the next thing to add in after the B6/multi ....it fits really well as a group of zinc, B6 (together wth a multi) and magnesium. They kinda work together. Magnesium should help you feel less edgy..its kinda a relaxant, but it also helps the ion pumps and some enzymes(I think) work better too ..so it helps with energy as well.Hope this helps some,
Jan (sorry about my sense of humour)
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 3:24:19
In reply to Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.........., posted by TeeJay on September 25, 2004, at 18:54:18
users
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61133.2
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.28 (see he talks about small dosing of lithium carbonate though)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.29
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.30
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=56774.31 (leslie's hubby's posts)
and follow thread thru a bit for a lot more stuff on thoughts on how lithium might be working
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=58465.47 more on using lithium (Bob)
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.166
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.169
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=57294.176probably plently of stuff on this forum too if you do a google search I guess
Run across any bears? Might be some in the US and Canada? Do they have any in Europe at all?
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 5:34:46
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » tealady, posted by JLx on September 24, 2004, at 15:24:20
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61897.1
re licorice..be careful I'm not sure exactly what it does..it does increase both cortisol and estrogen and ACTH? too I think(probably most adrenal stuff)..but it also inhibits something..and stuffs ya up if ya take it long term..like longer than a month or so..or in highish doses..or both you could end up in ER.
I'll look it up soon.Maybe Lar could help with what its problem is exactly, I know I never really figured it out.
I do know you need to increase your potaasium intake though.Jan (had to add something to the jokes to make relevant to alter)
Posted by TeeJay on September 27, 2004, at 6:43:21
In reply to More stuff on lithium..interesting read from other » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 3:24:19
"Run across any bears? Might be some in the US and Canada? Do they have any in Europe at all?"
Nah, not seen any! Might be the odd rampant englishman growling around theough if he keeps up with the selenium supplements ;-))
I hear ya about the magnesium and ate mag glycinate tabs like smarties for some months a couple of years back but with little effect (couldnt even seem to find my tolerance level of them either (took 6 400mg tabs often with no effect)) also tried it with a a heavyish dose of niacinamide too and not much difference. Maybe the results may be slightly different now I dont smoke perhaps?
Thanks for the info Jan.
I've run out of the ginkgo now so will continue with what I have for a few days and then drop one supplement out every few days until I find which one seems to be causing the problem.
I have a sneaky feeling its the lithium, but oddly it would mean I'm having ANOTHER contrary reaction to a supplement given I currently feel mega edgy and "tight" and feel as though I could burst into tears at any moment......all things i thought lithium was supposed to address. Not only that though, but one 120mg capsule is rather a low dose too.
Its us english........wierdness is in our genes I think ;-))
Thanks again to everyone for their helpful comments so far, much appreciated.
Phil
Posted by raybakes on September 27, 2004, at 10:06:45
In reply to Re: TSH levels and thyroid illness? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:00:46
Thanks Kara, I've learnt so much over the last few days, it's been good fun!
The great smokies sample thyroid report is interesting to read - the person on the sample has a TSH of 21 too! (need acrobat to read it)
http://www.gsdl.com/images/reportpdf/compthyroid.pdf
> So theoretically if one were taking a dopaminergic antidepressant, then that could increase TSH level? Also, you seem to be saying that stress could raise TSH level? If those are both true, then perhaps many people are being diagnosed as hypothyroid who may not really be. The implications are enormous if I'm interpreting this all correctly.
Looking at the great smokies report, it seems that dopamine will decrease TSH, but as it regulates other pituitary hormones, things might not be as straightforward!The report also talks about primary, secondary and tertiary thyroid diseases, depending on the factors involved!
The link between estrogen and thyroid is interesting, particularly because hypothyroid increases breast cancer risk. Have you heard of bad gut bacteria not allowing bile to hold onto estrogen, so estrogen continues to recirculate to dangerous levels? Excessive use of antibiotics, might predispose women to dangerous levels of estrogen in later life. Calcium d-glucarate (thorne research) is able to bind onto excess estrogen, and detoxify it. I'm sure xenoestrogens from plastics and pesticides will be a problem too.Like you, I found tyrosine had no effect whatsoever, but the n acetyl tyrosine and biopterin combination in norival make a massive difference! Yesterday I took it and felt relaxing warmth shoot down my spine!
Still reading the book on autism - the book lists the gene errors I have as individiually being risk factors for autism - and I've got them both!
They mention that children with these errors should not have vaccinations, and should keep well away from mercury! I think high functioning aspergers could describe me fairly well, so all the information is really useful.Ray
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:01:48
In reply to Re: Excuse me for elbowing my way in here.......... » TeeJay, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 21:06:53
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:41:55
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
> Hi Jan, perhaps it's the noradrenaline that tyrosine is helping synthesize, that is helping with your pain? More from Dr Lowe's website...
>
> "Too little thyroid hormone regulation of other cells in the brain stem decreases the release in the spinal cord of a nerve transmitting substance called "noradrenaline." The decreased noradrenaline in turn reduces the amount of opiates (morphine-like chemicals) released into the spinal cord. These opiates normally reduce the number of sensory impulses that enter the spinal cord and brain stem. When too few of the opiates are released, more sensory impulses make their way into the spinal cord and brain stem. As a result, the patient's perception of pain is heightened.
>
> The combination of high substance P and low noradrenaline (and hence low opiates) causes the patient to perceive pain in the absence of painful stimuli. For example, the patient might perceive as painful the mere movement of some joints. She might experience pain from the pressure on her underside when she is sits or lies on a well-padded surface. And her pain threshold might be so low that she experiences aches and pains despite no apparent stimulus such as movement or pressure."
>
> Ray
>
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:3-THWVPX1AsJ:www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/fmshypot.htm+pain+threshold+noradrenaline&hl=enThanks Ray,
That sounds like one possible explanation. The effect of tyrosine is what I think would be opiate-like(especially when I tried 200mg one morning)..only I haven't tried them.
Maybe I need noradrenaline?I've never heard of this substance P..and
also I have NO idea of the difference between noradrenaline (or norepinephrine ) and adrenaline (or epinephrine ). Every thing I read seems to just mention them mostly together ..or maybe call them different things in different parts of the body. I'm sure they are different though..just confusing for me!
I do know I can't tolerate stress well..like even just a difficult conversation you don't really want to face...eg like some one you employ who is doing a job you don't think is really right..like say my kid's orthodontist. After each visit I'd just crash for a week or so...literally just make it home and collapse into almost a coma (this was before I went onto thyroid meds)..
I'm not sure what exactly was going on with me.
I think it was related to adrenals.
Then later when I went onto thyroid meds I noticed anything that upset me similarly (didn't take much) I'd start shaking violently, vomiting etc before crashing...that's when I realised I had to take cortisol to counteract whatever was happening. I thought maybe adrenaline was going too high and maybe my adrenals couldn't automatically produce the extra cortisol in stressful situations to cope with the increased adrenaline?Anyway tyrosine fits in there ..somewhere! <grin> as it allows me to "cope" with situations a bit better.
Thanks for your thoughts, Jan
PS. I've been researching "thyroid" stuff for about 3 years now(been on thyroid hormones that long)..so I'm kinda mostly "up" on thyroid hormones...but I'm sure lost on adrenals, kidneys, liver etc <grin>.
RT3 is usually raised in nonthyroidal illness...as in hospital patients. The body decides it does not want a lot of normal T3 around for some reason in illness...maybe that forces a person to rest? as their bodies need the rest to recover?
My RT3 was in normal range...but then I never got a T3 to compare it with...can't get one in Oz..only FT3.
My anti TPO are over 2000 in August...ended up taking some cortisol for a few days...it feels like it lowers the antibodies...but it sure isn't something I recommend doing..or want to do too much.
If I don't take the cortisol when my antibodies are raging I partly lose my vision...as well as feel rotten..I can actually feel them in my thyroid..feels a bit like tonsillitis in my thyroid.
At present it's just a scratchy feeling there.
I have been diagnosed with thyroiditis.
Actually, strangely I find penicillin helps too(took a course of that too)..also with my daughters psoriasis..same deal..although I "know" viruses and bacteria are different<grin>I never knew about interleukin..I've heard the name before, but I get lost...seems to be something I need to investigate.
How did you find out about your genetic defect?Nice to "meet" you, been reading some of your posts,
Jan
Posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:46
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
> Hi Jan, perhaps it's the noradrenaline that tyrosine is helping synthesize, that is helping with your pain? More from Dr Lowe's website...
>
> "Too little thyroid hormone regulation of other cells in the brain stem decreases the release in the spinal cord of a nerve transmitting substance called "noradrenaline." The decreased noradrenaline in turn reduces the amount of opiates (morphine-like chemicals) released into the spinal cord. These opiates normally reduce the number of sensory impulses that enter the spinal cord and brain stem. When too few of the opiates are released, more sensory impulses make their way into the spinal cord and brain stem. As a result, the patient's perception of pain is heightened.
>
> The combination of high substance P and low noradrenaline (and hence low opiates) causes the patient to perceive pain in the absence of painful stimuli. For example, the patient might perceive as painful the mere movement of some joints. She might experience pain from the pressure on her underside when she is sits or lies on a well-padded surface. And her pain threshold might be so low that she experiences aches and pains despite no apparent stimulus such as movement or pressure."
>
> Ray
>
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:3-THWVPX1AsJ:www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/fmshypot.htm+pain+threshold+noradrenaline&hl=enHello to you both. I just read this post which led me to read the article by Dr. Lowe cited at the end of the post. Would you mind if I butted in and threw in my 2 cents here? In this article, Dr. Lowe says, "A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold."
In my research on adrenal fatigue, I have read more than once that autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's Disease can be triggered by adrenal fatigue. Also, one of the symptoms of adrenal fatigue is unexplained pain. Therefore, without knowing any of the other facts here, I would question if the "subset of patients" referred to by Dr. Lowe might actually have adrenal fatigue. Hmmm...
When I was at my worst with adrenal fatigue, I had a lot of pain in my lower back. Since I have been treating the adrenal fatigue and have seen great improvements, the lower back pain has just disappeared.
I am not an expert by any means, but I just thought I would throw that out for food for though...
God bless,
Simus
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 8:18:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » tealady, posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 13:30:45
meant to type 2000 not 200 for tyrosine
Posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 10:47:23
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- » JLx, posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 18:29:09
Hi Jan,
I'm glad to hear you had a "pretty good year"! :)
I had not heard of Kleine Levin Syndrome. Is this what you have? I have to admit that your situation has seemed so complicated that only bits and pieces stick in my head like previous discussions of thyroid or B12 reactions. KLS sounds very serious, especially the bone wasting and pain.
> Have you read thru the old threads here in your catch-up?
I did some lurking a few months back, but was too depressed to post. I spent hours recently just skimming through most of the current stuff, but didn't backtrack too much. So, what'd I miss?? ;)
> I set myself a goal last year of getting well enough to walk, drive again etc..and managed to get over to England for 6.5 weeks ..and Vanuatu for 3 weeks before that to visit son who is over there again working and diving for few weeks.
Very cool!
> I went back to uni after many years too to study this stuff..as my osmosis ability seems poor(grin)and I just can't understand these abstracts on pubmed!..I admire your dedication and willingness to get a more formal education in biology. Osmosis has its limitations for me too, especially when the MEGO effect kicks in. (My eyes glaze over <g>).
> It's a catch22...if I don't study this stuff I don't think anyone else is going to work it out and I might as well just give up..but if I do , I push my health too much too and crash!
I sure wish you success. I can't help but think there might be someone knowledgeable enough somewhere to really help you IF you could get their attention and time enough to give them all the information and follow up they'd need to really figure it out.
> So now I'm understanding a bit of it.... and I'm just discovering a few more things wrong, sigh. Now I'm starting to get to know enough to really argue with the docs..present them with what IS normal and my body is doing and finally getting them listening. That's another thing I was depressed about actually...wish they would have listened to me years ago! They just see what the majority of people do and if you're different they don't want to know!
Exactly.
> I know, I dropped off mostly myself and I'm still not really back <grin> , but I missed ya and had to say hello! I really appreciated your support before.
And I appreciate yours too. It's always great to come back here and "see" some familiar "faces".
> Yes I remember. Seeing ya back now is kinda a mixed feeling thing! Great to hear from you to say hello again ..but I was kinda happy if you had just gone out there into the world and got better too!!!Well, that was what I was hoping for actually, but now I think it might be better to just resolve to consider this an ongoing process and project. I think that when we supplement with something to correct something that it's equally likely to throw off something else -- maybe infinitesimal ordinarily, but we have oversensitive brain chemistry -- and then there are the variables of life such as stress, which is what did me in. The weird thing is that I saw it happening, but in some other way I also didn't. My thinking got too muddled to figure out my thinking was muddled, so to speak. And it still may be for all I know! It's hard to see the whole picture when you're inside the frame. ;)
> You're the ONLY person (out of hundreds) I've heard of that needs so much magnesium to feel good..and I've still got this question in the back of my mind as like WHY???. Everyone else needs somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1....really! So IF I ever find out WHY , I'll let ya know as I figure it's our differences that should be signposts to our problems.
I seem to be especially sensitive to the excitotoxicity potential of calcium. I'm also sensitive to other excitoxins too. I recall taking magnesium/potassium aspartate once after reading it was energizing and I felt terrible. Had no idea why then.
> When I posted the usual ratios of calcium : magnesium somewhere below I think , I was thinking ..except for Jlx (grins)
Well, I always mention it just in case someone else goes along as long as I did thinking all that calcium was good for me.
> Well that stopped me exercising too ..just about to start again... got fatter AaARGH!!The hardest part is psyching oneself up again after losing and then gaining it back. And weirdly enough, now that I know how much my diet regimen before was helpful to depression, it's even harder. Feeling rebellious, I guess.
> In England/Wales I tried to walk most days...it's really lovely for doing walks in..something different to see all the the time..gives one an incentive!!!
Oh, that sounds great. I've heard about the walkpaths they have all over there and that some people even walk to get places there. Imagine that! I have a nice place to walk near me, a bike path along a river that has parks on each end. If it's not too busy I can let my dog off her leash which lessens the usual stop/startness of dog walking. And there's nothing like seeing a dog running free over open ground. Something about that just always makes me smile and feel good.
> that's a blessing at least! Yes tyrosine may have done that..especially with a little magnesium..have you tried a little zinc too..like say 15mg at least a couple of times a week? Have you got copper or plastic plumbing? The zinc should help together with the magnesium and tyrosine especially if you have copper plumbing.I take zinc and have copper plumbing.
> Also B6(P5P) brand..I think "NOW" makes a good one in the US about 10mg a day a least(probably more likely 20mg) together with a multiB of up around 10-25mg size?
Yup, take that too ordinarily. This winter when I started to lose my grip on things, I slacked off on my supplements includling that one. I continued to take magnesium and usually also selenium, Vit C and MSM at least. (The latter noticeably help my gingivitis.)
> If you haven't tried it yet the P5PB6 seems to help with depression a lot for me and should be taken with brekkie together with some magnesium and zinc. Are you taking your tyrosine before brekkie on an empty stomach on waking or after 5AMish if you wake for a toilet break?
Yup. I've been taking tyrosine with P5P, Vit C and B 12 usually on an empty stomach because I thought that was what was meant by "take with". Is it not necessary to take them directly with each other?
> I've run out of (P5P)B6 a couple of weeks ago which I think is part of my problem..but iherb wants $40US postage alone!!!I don't know if they'd be any cheaper but The Vitamin Shoppe also ships to Australia. And so does Amazon, I presume. Did you know they have supplements now? I didn't, but see that they have some great prices on some things. I'm going to finally try magnesium taurate as it's $7.17 a bottle there as opposed to the lowest price I've seen elsewhere of $11-something.
We struggle valiantly on.... :)
JL
Posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
In reply to More jokes, licorice » JLx, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 5:34:46
Thanks for the warning about licorice. I remember talking about it before now and thinking it might not be a good idea after all. Actually I think I'm not going to really try anything new just yet, just tweak the stuff I already have.
Some great jokes, thanks! I've seen a number of those lists but this was a new one.
As it happens, I have an interview as a medical transcriptionist on Friday. This is something I did as an entry level position 20 years ago into what evolved as a career in medical records. It's been a lot of years since I actually did transcription and didn't particularly like it then, but of course, everything is different now. Transcription requires a lot of concentration while also being quite boring somehow, but still I would be very pleased to have this job. It's full time and should pay better hourly than my tax job will once tax season starts. It could be the chance I need to get back on my feet financially.
It would also be the chance I need to get back into my field. I kept up my C.E. credits and am still credentialed as a "registered health information manager" but my experience is too old to impress anyone. Yesterday when I was called for the interview I was happy and excited, but today I am feeling anxious and afraid of being disappointed. <sigh>
It's so true what the Buddhists say about attachment and suffering. It's kind of hard not to be "attached" to wanting to have a job though!
JL
Posted by raybakes on September 28, 2004, at 14:10:19
In reply to tyrosine to Noradrenaline, low pain threshold » raybakes, posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:41:55
> also I have NO idea of the difference between noradrenaline (or norepinephrine )Yeah I'm the same, they always seem to be lumped together, so don't know of the differences between them - have to look up my A&P book again!
> I do know I can't tolerate stress well..
I can relate to some of that - I can shake if I've had an argument with someone. Usually avoid confrontation at all costs though!! Run away, run away!
>
> PS. I've been researching "thyroid" stuff for about 3 years now(been on thyroid hormones that long)..so I'm kinda mostly "up" on thyroid hormones...but I'm sure lost on adrenals, kidneys, liver etc <grin>.I haven't looked too much into the workings of the kidney, but have spent a lot of time studying liver detoxification pathway, if that's any use?
>
> RT3 is usually raised in nonthyroidal illness...as in hospital patients. The body decides it does not want a lot of normal T3 around for some reason in illness...maybe that forces a person to rest? as their bodies need the rest to recover?It seems the cytokines of the immune system are involved in raising RT3 (IL1, IL6), which is fine for normal infection, but when we have chronic inflammation and/or infection, it's likely that RT3 will remain high all the time....so many people with chronic health problems seem to have trigger happy immune systems!
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.1996.668489.x/abs/
>
> My RT3 was in normal range...but then I never got a T3 to compare it with...can't get one in Oz..only FT3.Here in the UK it's sometimes difficult to get good tests - might get great smokies test done through an agency here soon, though.
>
> My anti TPO are over 2000 in August...ended up taking some cortisol for a few days...it feels like it lowers the antibodies...but it sure isn't something I recommend doing..or want to do too much.
> If I don't take the cortisol when my antibodies are raging I partly lose my vision...as well as feel rotten..I can actually feel them in my thyroid..feels a bit like tonsillitis in my thyroid.I'm trying some transdermal glutathione at the moment to reduce my antibodies, feels great on my gut so far, though sometimes need to take riboflavin 5 phosphate and selenium solution with it. Glutathione also stops the production of inflammatory cytokines, and reduces TPO antibodies...
In this study, selenium combined with T4 reduced TPO antibodies by nearly 50% - T4 alone reduced them by around 25%.
> At present it's just a scratchy feeling there.
> I have been diagnosed with thyroiditis.
> Actually, strangely I find penicillin helps too(took a course of that too)..also with my daughters psoriasis..same deal..although I "know" viruses and bacteria are different<grin>wonder whether penicillin is having an anti-inflammatory effect, directly, or by being antibacterial? I do brilliantly with lactoferrin, and antioxidant, antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal, anti-inflammatory, iron carrying protein - no wonder it's rich in mother's milk!
> I never knew about interleukin..I've heard the name before, but I get lost...seems to be something I need to investigate.In autoimmune disease, IL1, IL6, gamma interferon and TNFalpha, are the immune messengers that go around creating all the mischief!
> How did you find out about your genetic defect?
sent samples off to america for great smokies 'genovations' gene tests. Expensive though!
>
> Nice to "meet" you, been reading some of your posts,
And nice to meet you too!Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 28, 2004, at 14:23:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:46
> In my research on adrenal fatigue, I have read more than once that autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's Disease can be triggered by adrenal fatigue. Also, one of the symptoms of adrenal fatigue is unexplained pain. Therefore, without knowing any of the other facts here, I would question if the "subset of patients" referred to by Dr. Lowe might actually have adrenal fatigue. Hmmm...
>
Hi Simus, thanks for your reply - I wonder if adrenal fatigue can cause thyroid problems and also the other way round, that thyroid problems can cause adrenal fatigue?
I suppose low cortisol might increase inflammatory chemicals and so predispose us to autoimmunity? and it does seem that hypothyroid fatigues the adrenals too, according to this study!...
Ray
Posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 21:28:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 28, 2004, at 14:23:30
> > In my research on adrenal fatigue, I have read more than once that autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's Disease can be triggered by adrenal fatigue. Also, one of the symptoms of adrenal fatigue is unexplained pain. Therefore, without knowing any of the other facts here, I would question if the "subset of patients" referred to by Dr. Lowe might actually have adrenal fatigue. Hmmm...
> >
>
>
> Hi Simus, thanks for your reply - I wonder if adrenal fatigue can cause thyroid problems and also the other way round, that thyroid problems can cause adrenal fatigue?Yeah, I wish I knew. I wish more in general was known about the endocrine system.
> I suppose low cortisol might increase inflammatory chemicals and so predispose us to autoimmunity? and it does seem that hypothyroid fatigues the adrenals too, according to this study!...
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15007197
>
> RayAnd to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
Simus
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 22:04:26
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 21:28:06
> > > In my research on adrenal fatigue, I have read more than once that autoimmune disorders such as Hashimoto's Disease can be triggered by adrenal fatigue. Also, one of the symptoms of adrenal fatigue is unexplained pain. Therefore, without knowing any of the other facts here, I would question if the "subset of patients" referred to by Dr. Lowe might actually have adrenal fatigue. Hmmm...
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hi Simus, thanks for your reply - I wonder if adrenal fatigue can cause thyroid problems and also the other way round, that thyroid problems can cause adrenal fatigue?
>
> Yeah, I wish I knew. I wish more in general was known about the endocrine system.
>
> > I suppose low cortisol might increase inflammatory chemicals and so predispose us to autoimmunity? and it does seem that hypothyroid fatigues the adrenals too, according to this study!...
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15007197
> >
> > Ray
>
> And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???yep, well that's true!!
It probably happens as treating the hypothyroidism means your metabolism kicks in..but your adrenals..which are already struggling with a slowed down system have to step up function ..and they can't
Other thing to check and treat first is your ferritin levels...similar reasoning probably.Jan (who experienced both)
Posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 28, 2004, at 21:28:06
> And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
>
Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472Ray
Posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:25:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
>
> > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> >
> Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
>
> Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
>
> Ray
>
I wonder how that translates for people with adrenal fatigue who are already taking thyroid hormone and have been for years. I only take 50 mcg. a day of thyroxine and I'm not completely certain that I have adrenal fatigue (but I probably do). I have been feeling a lot better in terms of the adrenal fatigue type symptoms lately but I wonder if I might be better off not taking the thyroxine.-K
Posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
>
> > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> >
> Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
>
> Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
>
> Ray
>Ray,
(((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
Simus
Posted by TeeJay on September 29, 2004, at 19:56:40
In reply to What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do? (nm), posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:01:48
Cysteine is an amino acid but in the form mentioned in my post, its supposed to be very good for breaking down mucous in the body and as such is recommended for ex-smokers to clear out their lungs of "rubbish". I just had a few left over from when I stopped smoking and I hate to chuck supplements away that are still in date.
Only got a few left and take just 1 500mg capsule each morning.
TJ
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2004, at 22:51:10
In reply to Re: What is n acetyl cysteine supposed to do?, posted by TeeJay on September 29, 2004, at 19:56:40
> Cysteine is an amino acid but in the form mentioned in my post, its supposed to be very good for breaking down mucous in the body and as such is recommended for ex-smokers to clear out their lungs of "rubbish". I just had a few left over from when I stopped smoking and I hate to chuck supplements away that are still in date.
>
> Only got a few left and take just 1 500mg capsule each morning.That's interesting.
I'd never heard of anyone taking it before, so just wondered...doubt if I could get it over here , actually don't even think I'd heard of it b4<g>. Heard a bit about cysteine and acetyl as words ..that's about it<g>
I was wondering if you knew of some benefits from combining the selenium and the n acetyl cysteine when I read this on selenocysteine from...
(Selenium research in mammals using nuclear analytical methods and related techniques in conjunction with biochemical procedures D. Behne, D. Alber, A. Kyriakopoulos)
"After ingestion of selenite, selenate or selenocysteine, nearly all of the
metabolized element is incorporated into specific biologically active selenoproteins in which it is present in the form of selenocystein"
"After ingestion of selenite, selenate or selenocysteine, nearly all of the
metabolized element is incorporated into specific biologically active selenoproteins in which it is present in the form of selenocysteine. Their levels are homeostatically controlled and cannot be further increased by additional Se supplementation. "In the case of dietary selenomethionine, a part of the element is a certain percentage, however, is deposited directly and non-specifically into proteins in place of methionine. This part depends on the ratio of selenomethionine and methionine in the diet and can be considerably increased by raising the dietary selenomethionine intake.
I take selenomethione (equiv to 25mcg selenium occasionally)..maybe twice a week, as my blood levels were above range and I get more fatigued if I take 50 mcg for a few days...and get a metallic taste in my mouth.
I've no idea what I'm doing really...sounds like I use it to replace some of the methionine as I don't supps in that at all?
What form do you take?
Also from same paper..and on not taking too much...
"Selenium is also highly toxic and the range between deficiency and the first signs of toxicity is relatively small."Jan
>
> TJ
Posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:50:43
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on September 29, 2004, at 18:17:37
> (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))Thank you, hug and handshake gladly accepted!
>
> I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
Yeah, think there must be so many different thyroid dysfunction scenarios... is it primary hypothyroid and secondary hyper/hypoadrenalisim, or primary hypoadrenalism and secondary hypothyroidism....or primary hypoadrenalism and secondary hyperpituitary. Think it must be important to have a map of what's going on, but seems most practitioners just want to give T4 or iodine. No one really talks about healing the adrenals or thyroid before trying to boost them. Have been trying some of the ideas out on my girlfriend using kinesiology and homeopathic testers to work out how to help heal her thyroid.Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:55:53
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:25:16
> > >
>
>
> I wonder how that translates for people with adrenal fatigue who are already taking thyroid hormone and have been for years. I only take 50 mcg. a day of thyroxine and I'm not completely certain that I have adrenal fatigue (but I probably do). I have been feeling a lot better in terms of the adrenal fatigue type symptoms lately but I wonder if I might be better off not taking the thyroxine.
>
> -K
Difficult to know what to do - thyroxine, does lower thyroid antibodies by around 25% - 30% for some people so you might get an increase. I'm working on my girlfriend using some of the info I've learnt from our chats on here - will let you know how it goes!Ray
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 19:53:38
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
> As it happens, I have an interview as a medical transcriptionist on Friday. This is something I did as an entry level position 20 years ago into what evolved as a career in medical records. It's been a lot of years since I actually did transcription and didn't particularly like it then, but of course, everything is different now. Transcription requires a lot of concentration while also being quite boring somehow, but still I would be very pleased to have this job. It's full time and should pay better hourly than my tax job will once tax season starts. It could be the chance I need to get back on my feet financially.
>
> It would also be the chance I need to get back into my field. I kept up my C.E. credits and am still credentialed as a "registered health information manager" but my experience is too old to impress anyone. Yesterday when I was called for the interview I was happy and excited, but today I am feeling anxious and afraid of being disappointed. <sigh>
>I'm not sure what a medical transcriptionist is? Someone on the thyroid forum did that too I think, so it must be a US type job? ..sooo what do they do?
Whatever, I agree about the job. Good for some self esteem, like you feel like you are contributing something in the cogwheel but more so for some independence.
My last interview..about 3 years ago, I totally blew..and it should have been a walk in..but ya don't want to hear about that.
I'll try to reply more later...just wanted to wish you good luck.Oh what are C.E. credits too..and I guess you're training is something in the health field?
> It's so true what the Buddhists say about attachment and suffering. It's kind of hard not to be "attached" to wanting to have a job though!
>hmm what do Buddists say...though I can see they are related.
Jan
> JL
>
>
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 20:10:32
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » tealady, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:07:38
> Thanks for the warning about licorice. I remember talking about it before now and thinking it might not be a good idea after all. Actually I think I'm not going to really try anything new just yet, just tweak the stuff I already have.
Here's one thread on it.. I guess you know about setting "advanced" view to view up to 20 posts at once..bottom RHS
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2569.1I still have to take some licorice as without it I end up having to take cortisol and raising the amounts of various minerals, fiddling.. I'm trying to wean off..but I get kinda stressed out and its such a relief to take some...and this is only lollies..not huge doses..actually I might get around to phoning up the company for the strength today.
>
> Some great jokes, thanks! I've seen a number of those lists but this was a new one.
They were new to me too.
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