![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 155 to 179 of 257. Go back in thread:
Posted by jane d on December 3, 2010, at 6:46:25
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Willful on December 2, 2010, at 15:39:17
> who is now completely confused as to whether we have a major problem responsible for the loss of valuable posters and the apparent dying of babble as a place for connection and communication, or a minor problem not worth discussing.
I'm not sure it's either of those. I certainly didn't mean to suggest it wasn't worth discussing.
> didnt we have weeks, if not more of posters being engaged in developing an idea of self-governance and getting interested and maybe even excited about it--
Did we? We certainly had a lot of posts. And I think there was some real discussion buried in there. But it also seemed (to me) as though many of the posts just talked past each other. I kept finding myself reading a post and then a reply and feeling that the they were talking about two totally different things and neither poster realized it. For example, we had posts referring to "civility buddies" but describing a council even after civility buddies had been explicitly defined. I'd like to see the discussions continue until it's clear just what we are all agreeing or disagreeing about.
>I mean now suddenly it seems that this was all a lot of talk for or about nothing.
So far as I know the discussion is still open.
> Or are you just questioning one reason that's been given for this whole thing?
Not *just* that but I do question some of the overstatements that have been made about blocks. That they are frequent. They're not. That they are always (or often) capricious and unreasonable. I recently looked at a full years worth and, while I personally would draw the lines differently, that's not true either. That everybody who has ever left did so because they think the block policy is too strict. I can also remember people leaving because Bob wasn't strict enough. Etc, etc.
Is that any clearer?
Jane
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 9:26:42
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Willful, posted by 10derheart on December 2, 2010, at 22:19:27
> What if no one - or no one else but gg - volunteers to be Dr. Bob's deputy?
>
> He had not been able in the past to get many (any?) new posters to do so after a certain point. Do you think if caps on blocks were much shorter it would be the change that would make it more likely different posters would then be willing to be deputies?
>
> Just curious.
>
> - 10der (former deputy who has no problem hoping for revitalization)
>
>*10der :) (((safe hugs)))
I once considered deputydom,cuz I can separate myself from the general noise. But....I didn't trust Bob, and didn't know why exactly.
Then it all became more clear, and I was SO glad I trusted my instincts.
However, I think if Bob finally started to turly listen and heed, then I would help out.
But at this point, I am still very wary of Bob indeed.
And yes, for me, block length(and lack of warning/and too easily blocked) is a HUGE sticking point.
TC
Posted by Willful on December 3, 2010, at 13:48:07
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Willful, posted by jane d on December 3, 2010, at 6:46:25
Hi, Jane.
Thanks for answering. I felt, though, that your answers mostly consisted of disagreeing with my categorizations like "not worth discussing" or "weeks of discussion" -- when my point was elsewhere, ie, the question of whether there was or is a serious or needing-to-be-addressed problem here at babble about self-governance and imposition and length of blocks.
I had thought the transition from civility buddies to a counsel of Elders was made pretty explicitly in the suggestion of the need for a larger voice for posters in the blocks-- which therefore would be more acceptable, and perhaps more consistently applied (because the elders would be here more consistently) and also shorter. The civility buddy idea contemplated the same rules and general methods for imposing blocks, which would be Bob and Bob's formula, both of which have been claimed to be the source of conflict and people's leaving. The counsel of Elders was a completely different take on how to handle blocks.
I may have gotten the wrong idea, but initially, and for quite a while, there was general acceptance -- or at least not overt disagreement--- about the value of the Elders idea. Then, as Bob seemed surprisingly agreeable, after all this energy had been expended on convincing him, etc-- a sudden voicing of all these doubts, disagreements and poking holes in the premises of the idea itself.
I found myself somehow disappointed that we put all this possibly unnecessary energy and emotion into this idea-- which, by the way, I have no particular stake in-- only, when it became a real possibility, to pull the rug out from under it. I may have misread the overall response. But this was my impression.
So I was questioning why this sudden backing away-- from something that would of course be a major change and might not work out--but which seemed quite a creative and interesting idea? After all, it has been my observation that there is a ~lot~ of unhappiness with the blocking system and experience here. And I would love to see it addressed and to see people less focussed on injustice and hurtfulness of babble and getting more a sense of support and connection here.
Whether there are, in fact, too many or inconsistent blocks, I can't say for a fact. It isa fact that at times I've walked on eggshells when posting here-- and it's also my impression that PBCs and blocks are inconsistently and not quickly enough applied. But whether these issues need to be addressed is of course another thing.
But I am agnostic about the Counsel of Elders idea, for many reasons. I didn't contribute to the development of the idea because I wouldn't want to be on the counsel and I wasn't sure it would work. But I don't want to see it sabotaged at this point-- or made to seem as the subject line say, a solution in search of a problem. Clearly there was a problem. I just don't think there is any question about that.. I would be interested in whether a counsel improved things. I do think blocks need to be shorter.
I don't remember anyone leaving because Bob wasn't strict enough-- but I also am not convinced that the blocks explain why this place is (or may be) moribund.
Willful
Posted by Willful on December 3, 2010, at 14:17:03
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Willful, posted by 10derheart on December 2, 2010, at 22:19:27
Hi, 10derheart.
I think it would help a lot if the blocks were shorter, and also if they were more consistent-- not that they aren't consistent in the sense of being somewhat predictable, but in the sense that there isn't enough moderation and so many uncivil things are missed, and only the unlucky person who is noticed gets any moderation. There is also, for the same reason, too much time between the uncivil post and the response.
But I certainly think shorter blocks would relieve some of the dissatisfaction--. Maybe there would also be more people willing to be deputies if there were less unhappiness.
thanks for your response,
Willful
Posted by Solstice on December 3, 2010, at 14:27:16
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » jane d, posted by Willful on December 3, 2010, at 13:48:07
Hi Willful..
Your descriptions of the concepts involved are wonderfully easy to read.
> I had thought the transition from civility buddies to a counsel of Elders was made pretty explicitly in the suggestion of the need for a larger voice for posters in the blocks-- which therefore would be more acceptable, and perhaps more consistently applied (because the elders would be here more consistently) and also shorter. The civility buddy idea contemplated the same rules and general methods for imposing blocks, which would be Bob and Bob's formula, both of which have been claimed to be the source of conflict and people's leaving. The counsel of Elders was a completely different take on how to handle blocks.I think Elders' Council and Civility Buddies are two separate tools that would genuinely address the issues that have created so much stress here. It would limit block lengths when they *should* be limited (Council), and the Civility Buddy aspect would be a resource for those who want to avoid posting things that would be uncivil in the first place. I think Bob did want to separate the threads, though. But I think both of these mechanisms would work hand-in-hand to reduce the energy devoted to complaints about the current system.
> I may have gotten the wrong idea, but initially, and for quite a while, there was general acceptance -- or at least not overt disagreement--- about the value of the Elders idea. Then, as Bob seemed surprisingly agreeable, after all this energy had been expended on convincing him, etc-- a sudden voicing of all these doubts, disagreements and poking holes in the premises of the idea itself.Fascinating observation. You're right. That's exactly what hbappened. I can't help but wonder if my enthusiasm about it has been part of the problem? Maybe an active 'new kid on the block' (I'm not new to the site, but I am new to the active community).. but maybe my sudden and frequent appearance and input on the subject is off-putting? I also don't have any kind of a vested interest in it.. so I'd be happy to back away from it and remain silent on the issue if that would help others less suspicious of Bob's Elder's Council proposal.
> I found myself somehow disappointed that we put all this possibly unnecessary energy and emotion into this idea-- which, by the way, I have no particular stake in-- only, when it became a real possibility, to pull the rug out from under it. I may have misread the overall response. But this was my impression.Mine as well. I was feeling kinda alone on that :-) Now I don't.
> So I was questioning why this sudden backing away-- from something that would of course be a major change and might not work out--but which seemed quite a creative and interesting idea? After all, it has been my observation that there is a ~lot~ of unhappiness with the blocking system and experience here. And I would love to see it addressed and to see people less focussed on injustice and hurtfulness of babble and getting more a sense of support and connection here.
Yeah... my thinking as well.
> Whether there are, in fact, too many or inconsistent blocks, I can't say for a fact. It isa fact that at times I've walked on eggshells when posting here-- and it's also my impression that PBCs and blocks are inconsistently and not quickly enough applied. But whether these issues need to be addressed is of course another thing.
>
> But I am agnostic about the Counsel of Elders idea, for many reasons. I didn't contribute to the development of the idea because I wouldn't want to be on the counsel and I wasn't sure it would work. But I don't want to see it sabotaged at this point-- or made to seem as the subject line say, a solution in search of a problem. Clearly there was a problem. I just don't think there is any question about that.. I would be interested in whether a counsel improved things.And we'll never know if it never gets off the ground, and if trusted members of the community aren't willing to serve. I can understand the negative (and in my view legitimate) reaction to being elected vs. appointed. I think there's a way to satisfy Bob's desire that the Elder's Council arise out of the Community's collective opinion about who should serve.. but also keep it from being a popularity contest where preferences are shown for some of the nominees over others. I also understand the legitimate concerns about backlash from people complaining about Council decisions.. which is why I think it's more important to limit that potential (especially because of the vast experience of deputies of how bad the backlash can be). But by not posting individual votes, individual Council members could 'vote' with their conscience (as they should) without risking backlash for it, because since they are part of a group of people, no one would know who to get angry with. They could get angry about the decision, but not directly at a particular Council member.
> I do think blocks need to be shorter.That's the biggest problem... and Bob has offered to turn over authority for adjusting block length to a Council who determine it by majority vote. The Community will never know what it will be like to have shorter blocks until they throw their support behind a Council of community members that they have nominated to serve in those roles, and then continue to support them as an entity.
> I don't remember anyone leaving because Bob wasn't strict enough-- but I also am not convinced that the blocks explain why this place is (or may be) moribund.Good point. Blocks may only be part of it.. but they do seem to be a significant part. My gut tells me that addressing block length problem will, over the long term, eventually lead to less contribution of any of the other things that may contribute to "moribund." :-)
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 9:08:49
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Willful, posted by Solstice on December 3, 2010, at 14:27:16
I can only speak for myself, but the thing that changed my attitude was role inflation.
Originally the civility buddy idea was just that. A public offer to be available for at least some of the traditional role of civility buddy. I had volunteered to do that and to coordinate whatever needed coordinated.
Then all of a sudden, civil buddies were being talked about as something that I had never volunteered to do or to coordinate. And that I had no interest in doing.
As a result, I not only was upset at the new definition, but I wanted to resign what I had agreed to do.
That objection on my part could be solved by changing the name of the new position. It isn't really a civility buddy's part to be screening posts as a requirement of posting anyway. That's hardly a "buddy". If the name of the new position were changed to civility screener, or civility checker, or civility editor, or parole officer, I'd quit being upset about that part of it.
The same thing happened with the Council. At first it seemed that Dr. Bob was describing a parole board. Where after a portion of a block was served, the board could be contacted by those posters willing to take the responsibility of living by site guidelines and arrange for a way for those posters to come back to the community early. I've always thought willingness to abide by site guidelines was a better judge of whether someone should come back than the passage of time.
Then it started to sound like appeals court. Where Dr. Bob's decisions could be overturned and his blocks deemed unjustified. That is something different entirely. The first involves helping posters return in a way where they take responsibility for their posting. The second is about Dr. Bob and his judgments. The second is substituting the judgments of the council for the judgments of Dr. Bob.
I am for the former but against the latter.
I hope that clarifies *my* change of attitude. It has nothing to do with personalities and everything to do with beliefs.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 9:10:16
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 9:08:49
By that I mean that I can only explain my own motivations. I can't speak to the motivations of others, but I doubt they were personal either.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 9:32:50
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 9:08:49
> I can only speak for myself, but the thing that changed my attitude was role inflation.
>
> Originally the civility buddy idea was just that. A public offer to be available for at least some of the traditional role of civility buddy. I had volunteered to do that and to coordinate whatever needed coordinated.
>
> Then all of a sudden, civil buddies were being talked about as something that I had never volunteered to do or to coordinate. And that I had no interest in doing.
>
> As a result, I not only was upset at the new definition, but I wanted to resign what I had agreed to do.
>
> That objection on my part could be solved by changing the name of the new position. It isn't really a civility buddy's part to be screening posts as a requirement of posting anyway. That's hardly a "buddy". If the name of the new position were changed to civility screener, or civility checker, or civility editor, or parole officer, I'd quit being upset about that part of it.
>
> The same thing happened with the Council. At first it seemed that Dr. Bob was describing a parole board. Where after a portion of a block was served, the board could be contacted by those posters willing to take the responsibility of living by site guidelines and arrange for a way for those posters to come back to the community early. I've always thought willingness to abide by site guidelines was a better judge of whether someone should come back than the passage of time.
>
> Then it started to sound like appeals court. Where Dr. Bob's decisions could be overturned and his blocks deemed unjustified. That is something different entirely. The first involves helping posters return in a way where they take responsibility for their posting. The second is about Dr. Bob and his judgments. The second is substituting the judgments of the council for the judgments of Dr. Bob.
>
> I am for the former but against the latter.
>
> I hope that clarifies *my* change of attitude. It has nothing to do with personalities and everything to do with beliefs.That's how I feel about it too.
Also, I felt as if a volunteer position all of a sudden became a political position, and I know 1) I'd lose 2) I couldn't take that, and 3) the spirit of volunteering was quickly run out of the job before it ever coalesced.
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 10:52:22
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 9:32:50
>"1) I'd lose "
Naaaaahhhh! NEVER!!!! I'd vote for ya!!! :)
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 11:28:37
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 9:08:49
> I can only speak for myself, but the thing that changed my attitude was role inflation.
>
> Originally the civility buddy idea was just that. A public offer to be available for at least some of the traditional role of civility buddy. I had volunteered to do that and to coordinate whatever needed coordinated.
>
> Then all of a sudden, civil buddies were being talked about as something that I had never volunteered to do or to coordinate. And that I had no interest in doing.Those were just ideas. Nothing more. The civility buddy assistance that you were dealing with has already been in place. You were coordinating bringing in more from the community to serve as civility buddies. The definition of that was not changed. I had ideas - but that is all they were. Nobody changed anything. I certainly don't have that power.
> As a result, I not only was upset at the new definition, but I wanted to resign what I had agreed to do.I don't want to feel like your desire to resign was my fault, but it seems that is what's implied. That my ideas upset you makes me feel like it's not okay to have ideas... at least it's not okay to share them. I'm clear on that now.
> That objection on my part could be solved by changing the name of the new position.As far as I know, there isn't a 'new position.' Ideas for possible expansions, but only ideas - which are subject to rejection.
> It isn't really a civility buddy's part to be screening posts as a requirement of posting anyway. That's hardly a "buddy". If the name of the new position were changed to civility screener, or civility checker, or civility editor, or parole officer, I'd quit being upset about that part of it.Please stop being upset. I took your point when you first made it - and since that time, when I've referred to civility buddies, I was referring to it as it currently exists - not with any 'expansions.' All I have are ideas and suggestions. Again.. I don't have the power to make changes. I don't mind my ideas beeing rejected as not practical, or not workable.. but I do wish I didn't feel that shareing my ideas is unwelcome.
> The same thing happened with the Council. At first it seemed that Dr. Bob was describing a parole board. Where after a portion of a block was served, the board could be contacted by those posters willing to take the responsibility of living by site guidelines and arrange for a way for those posters to come back to the community early. I've always thought willingness to abide by site guidelines was a better judge of whether someone should come back than the passage of time.
>
> Then it started to sound like appeals court. Where Dr. Bob's decisions could be overturned and his blocks deemed unjustified. That is something different entirely. The first involves helping posters return in a way where they take responsibility for their posting. The second is about Dr. Bob and his judgments. The second is substituting the judgments of the council for the judgments of Dr. Bob.Some of this may just be semantics. After I boiled my ideas about Council down, I think what I've talked about most recently has been the same in essence as what you're describing. However, in my attempt to include the people who react to some of Bob's blocks as being unjust, unmerited, and using too low of a threshhold, I used similar language - which may have led to it being perceived as different. At the core of it, it would seem unreasonable to believe that it's not possible for Bob to unjustifiably block a poster - to have an error in judgment. If a poster is indeed blocked for something that even folks on Council didn't understand, that poster will be saying "hey - I don't know why Bob took it as uncivil - but here's what I meant.." and Council easily sees that Bob may have misunderstood the poster... so Council remedies that by releasing the block, because they have checked and verified that the poster was not coming from an uncivil place, and clearly does not intend to be uncivil. I don't see it as substituting the judgments of Council for the judgments of Bob as much as I see it as being full recognition on the part of both Council and Bob that there will be times that he has issued a block that is unnecessarily long given the contrition of the justifiably blocked poster, and there are times Bob will issue a block based on a judgment made in haste, or made without enough background information - which Council has better access to. Those cases could fairly be described as 'unjust blocks.'
> I am for the former but against the latter.
>
> I hope that clarifies *my* change of attitude. It has nothing to do with personalities and everything to do with beliefs.And sometimes we misunderstand the beliefs to which we object. That's why talking is what keeps things fluid. Ideas are just ideas - like a smorgasborg of options from which to choose. I never meant for my ideas to be taken as if they were a 'given.'. I think in terms of 'development plans' whereby a developer submits to the planners of a jurisdiction a proposal for a development. It goes back and forth dozens of times for revisions by both the developer's architect and the jurisdiction's planners. Each side tweaking it and making proposals for adjustments. The jurisdiction's planners have the final word on everything.. but it has to go through a bunch of different departments.. signage, parking, landscaping, utilities, transportation, etc. The plans go back to the developer with 'comments,' and after addressing the 'comments,' developer submits it again with 'revisions.' It can take forever to get through the process - and once plans are approved, it's still not over. During the construction phase, the jurisdiction will send inspectors out, and adjustments will continue to be made along the way. Until it's actually built, it's all just ideas, subject to tweaking. I guess my approach to this was like that... but the proposals I submitted were perceived as final development plans that had the jurisdiction's approval (having sent proper notification to adjacent landowners so they could come to the hearing to voice objections).
I don't think it's *me* that's being rejected.. but I do wish my ideas were welcomed as ideas. I'm thinking it may have been better for the community if I had remained a cave-dweller.
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 11:49:42
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 11:28:37
>but the proposals I submitted were perceived as final development plans that had the jurisdiction's approval (having sent proper notification to adjacent landowners so they could come to the hearing to voice objections).
The above was supposed to say: "(having NOT sent proper notification to adjacent landowners so they could come to the hearing to voice objections)".
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 11:57:27
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 11:28:37
I think it good you trying to help.
But see, you getting invested, course you are, cuz you have put effort into this.
but it not gonna be logical, and that why long time ago me, and proly alex and maybe others(my memory sucks) were saying to be careful, cuz you get too involved and things here move awful slow, and Bob comes and goes....so it just slow.
Then you throw in people...lol...and it get more crazy!!!
And that kinda what makes it interesting too tho...
But I get the sense that you trying real hard and maybe you getting a bit frustrated and I hate to see that.
I think to work this we goto take a large step back, and look at the info of what is trying to be achieved and worry a little less about being hurt, cuz ya, feathers get ruffled in discussions, but we goto focus on what we trying to achieve.
We all good people and struggling away w/this unwieldy place.
I think we all want to see more life here.
Just....its hard. Hard in alot of ways.
So maybe sometimes we goto stop a bit and breathe(and wait fer friggin Bob to reappear...!?!?).
Yep, we in the trenches together.
We from different places.
So ya, we gonna have troubles from time to time.
But I think we all goto remember that we all just trying our best as we can in trying circumstances....even Bob.
Manoman, too bad we can't all get together on a beach, toss back a few brewskies and hash this out.
AND, lol, if Bob don't come on board, we throw him into the sea!!!
HA!
Thx for alla the work you doing solstice, I know it frustration.
We all good eggs.
We just goto keep slowly picking away at ol Bob and maybe he come around....
I hate to make too much plans w/o Bob on board cuz ultimately it all gonna come down to him.
Been that way B4.
We get all enthusiastic and then Bob just won't budge...
So, ya, we waiting...
Hope you can chill some on this.
It hard 4sure.
M
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 12:23:10
In reply to solstice, and everyboddy really, me too :), posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 11:57:27
You are very kind, Muff.. and your posts are awfully fun to read. Just delightful! :-)
I'm not really frustrated with it moving slow.. but there are things I find myself having trouble with:
- when I feel misunderstood
- when I feel attacked for having said/thought things I didn't say or think
- when people make wrong assumptions about me, and then act as if those assumptions are fact
- when others seem to get upset with me because of what they think I mean or think, without first having clarified whether I mean or think. They just jump to conclusions. Maybe that's the same as the one above?
- and finally... I don't mind my ideas being rejected, but when it feels like the very sharing of my ideas is unwelcome, then *I* feel unwelcome. And right now I do feel very unwelcome.Never by you tho, Muffled. :-) And for that I thank you.
Sol.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 14:57:35
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 11:28:37
It's really not personal and I don't mind new ideas.
There was some discussion about how people were suddenly against the proposals they had previously been in favor of. Or at least I think I saw something to that effect.
I was saying that my position never really changed.
The only thing I did ask is that, instead of an expansion of the existing civility buddy system, the idea be framed in terms of a new position with different responsibilities. Since I'm currently a civility buddy volunteer, I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask that the positions be separated if that was possible. If the current role is expanded, my resignation wouldn't be your fault. It would be because I didn't feel comfortable with the expectations of the expanded role. It would seem better to mention the matter now than after the role was expanded.
I didn't try to stop you from offering new ideas. I can like some of your ideas and not like other of your ideas without in any way trying to silence you.
In the end I have no idea what Bob will do. I have no great insight into his mind. But I can have opinions on aspects of the proposals put forward. Whatever he decides, that will be what happens.
I didn't say you shouldn't share your ideas. I didn't *mean* that you shouldn't share your ideas. For all I know your ideas will strike a chord with Dr. Bob. Certainly I have no reason to believe otherwise.
I didn't take your ideas to be anything more than ideas. Only Dr. Bob has the power to implement anything.
I am somewhat confused as to how my disagreement is taken to be silencing. I have neither the power or the desire to silence you. Ought I say nothing to your suggestions? Or agree with things I do not agree with?
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 15:01:29
In reply to Re: solstice, and everyboddy really, me too :), posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 12:23:10
> You are very kind, Muff.. and your posts are awfully fun to read. Just delightful! :-)
>
> I'm not really frustrated with it moving slow.. but there are things I find myself having trouble with:
> - when I feel misunderstood
> - when I feel attacked for having said/thought things I didn't say or think
> - when people make wrong assumptions about me, and then act as if those assumptions are fact
> - when others seem to get upset with me because of what they think I mean or think, without first having clarified whether I mean or think. They just jump to conclusions. Maybe that's the same as the one above?
> - and finally... I don't mind my ideas being rejected, but when it feels like the very sharing of my ideas is unwelcome, then *I* feel unwelcome. And right now I do feel very unwelcome.
>
> Never by you tho, Muffled. :-) And for that I thank you.
>
> Sol.
>
>Many thanks.
But see, thats the thing, you getting invested... :(
You bringing emotions(which confuse me no end, I s'posed to learn bout them tho) into it. I not so sure you read things right IMHO, but I could be wrong.....but see thats the 'invested' part, people get 'invested' in something and it skews their perceptions, they start to see things different....and not always for the best I afraid...cuz they got this investment...ugh, I not saying it well am I?
I think you need, in this admin situ anyways, to just let go of them emots stuff. Cuz you goto keep your eyes on the fries as they say.
Sides, sure nuff Bobbo gonna start to throwin about PBC's if you don't watch it!!! then the poo flies I gotta tell ya!!! DUCK! It hard here to know when the poo gonna fly :(
Cuz people gonna feel strong, and the darn words SO easily get 'read' wrong cuz thats the nature of words.
I not so clear on the cursed civility rules, they also confuse me no end....and I absolutely do not mean to fuss you, but sigh...I fear you may have run afoul of them above....see, in my understanding, you not allowed to say what you did....I think. Bob will wan you to rephrase it. Eg,"when I feel attacked", he will proly want you to say something more along the lines of....crap this is confusing...but....hmmmmm....ok "sometimes I feel like people don't want me here", kinda like saying how you feel w/o directing it in such a way that someone will grab the fact that you feel attacked and think it is directed at them, and then THEY gert mad, cuz you saying they attacked you, and really, like as not, they didn't mean it that way (accursed words!). So this be a heads up for ya! Welcome to babble....
So when here I just try and assume everyboddy means for the best, and it NOT personal to me or you.....it just a thrashing thru of ideas.
And yeppers, someboddy always gonna feel kinda so so if theys ideas aren't taken, it kinda human nature that!!! LOL!!
I think if you wanto work on this, and you DO NOT have to, you gonna have to try and let the emotions stuff go.
Which for some ain't easy. LOL, for me it is lotsa times cuz I got parts whats got no emotions.
So, I dunno the dynamics, cuz I get confused, but I think it just ya, you got good ideas, and you got the smarts and stuff...but LOL, maybe people getting overwhelmed some, cuz no everyboddy can think fast and assimilate stuff as fast as someone(you) who is gifted in that way.
Its good people here, seriously.
Its just plain ol words is hard.
Change is hard.
The time lag is hard.
We all strugglin.
Just, I hope you don't get tied up in emotions over this sol, cuz there a chance you just gonna be spinning your wheels w/ol Bob.
So, I leery for sure of alla this.....
Take it slow ;-) would be my advice, and I am SURE "I" know best!! ROFL!!!
I hope everybody can be chillin.
Cuz we alls want the same.
To be accepted. To not get hurt. To have meaningful interations. To dabble with some deeper thots, to be 'known' by others, etc etc.
We all hurting.
So, LOL!!! Lets pile on the happy stuff!
Cuz we all not so differeent after all...
Hang in there...!
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 15:02:57
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Solstice, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 14:57:35
That Dinah you good w/the words girl!
Sometime it fun to try and get it right!
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 15:11:18
In reply to oh dinah, you are the Master!!!, posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 15:02:57
I feel more bewildered than articulate.
At some point recently I must have expressed myself less than well.
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 18:16:34
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem » Solstice, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 14:57:35
> It's really not personal and I don't mind new ideas.
>
> There was some discussion about how people were suddenly against the proposals they had previously been in favor of. Or at least I think I saw something to that effect.
>
> I was saying that my position never really changed.
>
> The only thing I did ask is that, instead of an expansion of the existing civility buddy system, the idea be framed in terms of a new position with different responsibilities. Since I'm currently a civility buddy volunteer, I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask that the positions be separated if that was possible. If the current role is expanded, my resignation wouldn't be your fault. It would be because I didn't feel comfortable with the expectations of the expanded role. It would seem better to mention the matter now than after the role was expanded.I agree.. Right about the same time (or just afterwards) you brought this up, Bob generated activity on the Council concept and made his proposal. His proposal eliminated the need for anything other than the civility buddy system that you have going on right now, so I dropped the ideas I had that you consider 'expansion.' After that point, any time I mentioned the civility buddy function, it was always in the context in which it currently exists.
The post you made yesterday (I think) that I was responding to here sounded like you thought I was on a campaign to change what you had going. I threw out ideas in an attempt to address issues, but they seemed to be perceived as more than just ideas.
> I didn't try to stop you from offering new ideas. I can like some of your ideas and not like other of your ideas without in any way trying to silence you.I didn't feel like you were trying to silence me. Just the same, certain parts of your post did make me feel like my ideas were not welcome. I didn't use the word 'silence.' There is a difference in my mind between trying to 'silence' someone, and reacting to someone's ideas in a way makes them feel like the ideas they share are not welcome.
> In the end I have no idea what Bob will do. I have no great insight into his mind. But I can have opinions on aspects of the proposals put forward.
Of course. And I hope I've been clear in my communication here about the respect I have for your opinions. I consider them to have an innate wisdom due to your experience, time, and relationships here. My feeling that my ideas were unwelcome was not a result of your disagreeing with any (or even all) of my ideas.
> I didn't say you shouldn't share your ideas. I didn't *mean* that you shouldn't share your ideas. For all I know your ideas will strike a chord with Dr. Bob. Certainly I have no reason to believe otherwise.
>
> I didn't take your ideas to be anything more than ideas. Only Dr. Bob has the power to implement anything.
>
> I am somewhat confused as to how my disagreement is taken to be silencing.Again.. I didn't feel you were trying to silence me.. I just felt that sharing my ideas was not welcome. I'm glad to hear that it you did not intend for me to feel that way.. but perhaps my sense that they were not welcome was because of statements like this:
"As a result, I not only was upset at the new definition, but I wanted to resign what I had agreed to do."
It sounded like you believed the definition of Civility Buddy had undergone a massive change, and that was being attributed to me. Further, this thing attributed to me was upsetting to you - to the point that you wanted to resign! If my sharing an idea that has NOT changed any kind of definition has the power to have that kind of effect, then in my mind, my ideas are not being taken simply as ideas. If taken as simply ideas, my ideas shouldn't upset anyone, and they certainly shouldn't provoke someone as important to the community as you are to resign a position you designed that is functioning well. If someone were saying things that I believed were intruding on me to the extent mine appear to have intruded on you, then I wouldn't welcome that person's input. I'm not sure I'm making sense in describing this.. but your reaction seemed stronger than what I would expect to be generated by sharing a variety of ideas, unless the sharing of those ideas was just not welcome.
> I have neither the power or the desire to silence you. Ought I say nothing to your suggestions? Or agree with things I do not agree with?You can like, dislike, agree, disagree, or anything you like with respect to any idea I throw out there. Didn't I tell you in one of my responses to your negative feedback that I wanted to hear everything you have to say - and the more the better? I am the LAST person who would want you to not be true to yourself. Your ability to be true to yourself, and to so clearly distinguish between very fine points, is part of what I love so much about you. I am not emotionally invested in my ideas. They are not appendages of me. They are a little like moths - short life cycle and die easily - so that's why God makes tons of them, you know? You don't want to make an idea your pet any more than you'd want to turn a moth into a beloved pet :-) I think I've demonstrated this philosophy by my history of readily adjusting and adapting to feedback, which I have actively solicited and welcomed. My recent sense that my ideas are not welcome emerged when your post indicated that you believed I had somehow changed the definition of Civility Buddy, to the point that your ability to resolve your upset was contingent on my creating a new name for my new definition of this new entity (which didn't even exist). It sounded like you felt the existing Civility Buddy function had been swallowed up by something I had created, and it was making unwelcome demands on you or something. I didn't create anything. I had ideas - ideas that I quickly abandoned when Bob made his Council proposal quite a number of posts ago. You seemed to be giving life and power to those ideas that I didn't see them having, and the effect of them on you was quite negative. I wouldn't welcome something that had that kind of effect on me, upsetting me so much that I wanted to resign something I'd nurtured - so it wasn't hard for me to feel that these ideas of mine that somehow transformed into something demanding and coersive were not welcome.
Bob's Council proposal was addressed in a similar fashion... talking about my ideas (and I suppose Bob's inclusion of elections) as if they had already 'changed' the Council concept - which in my mind is not yet an existing entity. It's just a bundle of ideas that need to be sorted through and culled. You seemed to see the Council concept as something with an initial particular set of characteristics that you thought acceptable, that people like me were monkeying around with and had now turned it into something you didn't like at all. All I've done is come up with ideas - but power was being attributed to my ideas that I had no control over.
If you want to know what I'd like to see - it would be for you to look at the various ideas (wherever they came from)that are at the forefront right now, and speak to each one of them. Your ability to see to the core of things is a gift. I'd like your feedback, your thoughts about the pros and cons of each of the various ideas that are still breathing, with explanations of why the pro is a pro, and why the con is the con. I know for sure that that kind of feedback from you would hold a goldmine of gems that would be productive for constructing something to address, in particular, block length.
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 18:46:40
In reply to Re: solstice, and everyboddy really, me too :), posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 15:01:29
> Many thanks.
> But see, thats the thing, you getting invested... :(
> You bringing emotions(which confuse me no end, I s'posed to learn bout them tho) into it. I not so sure you read things right IMHO,That's certainly possible. We all interpret things based on our past experiences. So at times I very well may not 'read' thing they way they were intended. I also think others don't always 'read' me accurately.
> but I could be wrong.....but see thats the 'invested' part, people get 'invested' in something and it skews their perceptions, they start to see things different....and not always for the best I afraid...cuz they got this investment...ugh, I not saying it well am I?You're saying it just fine... I've developed a particular affection for the way you say things.
> I think you need, in this admin situ anyways, to just let go of them emots stuff. Cuz you goto keep your eyes on the fries as they say.I'll try to see where I might have this 'investment' you talk about, but am not recognizing it.
> Sides, sure nuff Bobbo gonna start to throwin about PBC's if you don't watch it!!! then the poo flies I gotta tell ya!!! DUCK! It hard here to know when the poo gonna fly :(
> Cuz people gonna feel strong, and the darn words SO easily get 'read' wrong cuz thats the nature of words.
> I not so clear on the cursed civility rules, they also confuse me no end....and I absolutely do not mean to fuss you, but sigh...I fear you may have run afoul of them above....see, in my understanding, you not allowed to say what you did....I think. Bob will wan you to rephrase it.I hope I haven't' run afoul of them... but I guess we'll see :-). I sure don't have any feelings of incivility behind anything I've said. But if I did, I'll deal with that bridge when I cross it.
> So when here I just try and assume everyboddy means for the best, and it NOT personal to me or you.....it just a thrashing thru of ideas.That's the way I see it. I really don't think of ideas as parts of me. The thrashing thru of ideas has been a part of my professional life for many years. When I was a very young adult I was probably attached to my ideas.. but good god, ideas now are like a bag of M&M's - too many of them to get very attached to - and they sure don't last long enough for it to be worth getting too attached to.
> And yeppers, someboddy always gonna feel kinda so so if theys ideas aren't taken,For me.. it's not the rejection of my ideas that makes me feel bad. It's when I feel misunderstood, mischaracterized, or things that are not consistent with my own set of life 'codes and policies' are (or seem to be) attributed to me. I've been thru enough of life to have learned to not mind when I'm confronted with an error I made. I can own it and do something constructive with it. It's different, though, if I'm confronted about an action attributed to me that I did Not 'do'.
Your point about the difficulty interpreting the written word, especially in an anonymous internet community is well taken. It's really complicated. That's why civility guidelines are so crucial. One thing that contributes to the problem is that with all the posts, it's easy to misunderstand something because we sometimes miss other posts that would have clarified it - and we react too quickly to something we've misunderstood. So you are very right about it being best to give people the benefit of the doubt, to interpret things as generously as possible (my rephrse of what I think you said :-)
Thanks for your input, Muffled. You really are a joy. I had fun with the images your carrying on about flying poo conjured up for me.
Sol.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 0:51:18
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 18:16:34
> The post you made yesterday (I think) that I was responding to here sounded like you thought I was on a campaign to change what you had going. I threw out ideas in an attempt to address issues, but they seemed to be perceived as more than just ideas.
I didn't think you were trying to change anything I had going. I have nothing going. I perceived your suggestions as just ideas.
> There is a difference in my mind between trying to 'silence' someone, and reacting to someone's ideas in a way makes them feel like the ideas they share are not welcome.I didn't intend to convey that. I was stating my thoughts about those ideas. I'm sorry that the way I reacted made you feel like your ideas were not welcome.
> Again.. I didn't feel you were trying to silence me.. I just felt that sharing my ideas was not welcome.
To me, telling someone their ideas were not welcome is the same as trying to silence them. I intended neither.
> It sounded like you believed the definition of Civility Buddy had undergone a massive change, and that was being attributed to me.
Dr. Bob himself mentioned what he called formal civility buddies that I understood to mean required civility buddies. I would ask him to change the terminology, if that's what he meant. It made me feel uneasy. I'm not sure why you're taking it personally when Dr. Bob himself mentioned it.
> If taken as simply ideas, my ideas shouldn't upset anyone, and they certainly shouldn't provoke someone as important to the community as you are to resign a position you designed that is functioning well.
First of all, I didn't exactly design this position and I don't think it's been used at all so I really don't feel free to say it's functioning well. How can something that is brand new and never used be considered functioning well *or* badly? Because it's new I don't know what it will turn into. And because it's new, I'm not altogether comfortable with my role, particularly if it still feels up in the air as to its function. I have absolutely no investment in the position at all. I agreed to do something Dr. Bob asked me to do when he took up my suggestion.
> If someone were saying things that I believed were intruding on me to the extent mine appear to have intruded on you, then I wouldn't welcome that person's input. I'm not sure I'm making sense in describing this.. but your reaction seemed stronger than what I would expect to be generated by sharing a variety of ideas, unless the sharing of those ideas was just not welcome.
I'm not sure what you are hearing in my posts, but I wasn't that upset. I feel a bit upset now...
You seem to be saying I am misunderstanding you. Perhaps I am. Certainly I don't have a clear sense that I am understanding what's going on at the moment.
I've said what I think. I've given my feedback. I don't feel all that comfortable with saying more. I have no confidence in my ability to understand you, when you have said that I have misunderstood you, or to respond in a way you find welcoming.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:10:44
In reply to solstice, and everyboddy really, me too :), posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 11:57:27
Regarding blocks:
> There have been times that blocks have been issued, and no one has really understood why the post provoking the block even merited a block.
>
> SolsticeIf someone doesn't understand, they can ask. If they disagree, that of course is different.
> Long blocks are just not needed.
> STOP LONG BLOCKS.
>
> muffled.Moving on might be best for some posters and being powerless for a long time might help them do that.
--
Regarding running/serving:
> there has been a ... negative reaction to the idea of elections. I recognize the validity of why it is, as Dinah said, abhorrent.
>
> anyone whose nature is decidedly NOT competitive will be stopped by their aversion to it.
>
> Solstice> I'd feel very hurt to be rejected by my peers. ... In some ways it would seem like a popularity contest
>
> Dinah> having elections, if we could find good candidates, would be a useful enterprise. It at least somewhat requires that people be thickskinned enough to handle losing, even if that does always feel bad.
>
> It might mean then that they could weather some of the storms of making difficult or even unpopular decisions, which apparently can really affect the comfort level and sense of community of quasi-authority figures here.
>
> Willful> I once considered deputydom,cuz I can separate myself from the general noise.
>
> muffled> Also, I felt as if a volunteer position all of a sudden became a political position, and I know 1) I'd lose 2) I couldn't take that, and 3) the spirit of volunteering was quickly run out of the job before it ever coalesced.
>
> PartlyCloudyPeople's feelings are of course valid. That elections in general are abhorrent, however, I'd consider an overgeneralization.
I agree, those who are decidedly not competitive, or who will feel very hurt not if they're not elected, or who are convinced they won't be elected, probably shouldn't run. I agree, council members should probably be thick-skinned enough to weather some storms.
Muffled, would you consider councildom?
--
Regarding the proposal itself:
> What you're describing sounds as much a board of appeals as a parole board.
> A politician is always worried about reelection. Posting the votes for or against puts an elder in the role of politician, who must consider how their vote will impact on their popularity. I find myself unwilling to even have the temptation to have the exercise of my values influenced by a concern for popularity.
>
> Dinah> he has said that Council's jobs would be: 1) pay attention to blocking activity, and if there is an outcry over a particular block.. Council convenes
> Think of our court system.. and juries. The only time members of a jury are asked to disclose their vote is in death penalty cases
>
> SolsticeOf course people "appeal" for parole, but IMO this would be more like a parole board than a board of appeals, since blocks wouldn't be overturned, just shortened.
Council members might not worry about re-election. They might just exercise their values, confident that they were elected because of them. Or being re-elected might concern them -- because it's important to them to represent their constituency.
Juries aren't elected.
My proposal was that it would be up to blocked posters to involve the council, so theirs would be the only relevant outcry.
--
> Jane
> who is still confused about why we need an incredibly elaborate process set up for a minor problemBecause the more general issue is how and to whom to transfer power.
> Solstice
> who is confused about the anger directed at her because she supports a proposal Bob madeMaybe that was a taste of the "minion effect"?
> I found myself somehow disappointed that we put all this possibly unnecessary energy and emotion into this idea... only, when it became a real possibility, to pull the rug out from under it.
>
> So I was questioning why this sudden backing away?
>
> WillfulIn addition to the issues that have been brought up, part of it may be the anxiety of the unknown that's always associated with change.
> maybe sometimes we goto stop a bit and breathe(and wait fer friggin Bob to reappear...!?!?).
!!
> Manoman, too bad we can't all get together on a beach, toss back a few brewskies and hash this out.
>
> MSome of us may in fact be able to:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/949355.html
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=168914719799505Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 8:27:21
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:10:44
> People's feelings are of course valid. That elections in general are abhorrent, however, I'd consider an overgeneralization.
For the record, I didn't say that.
> My proposal was that it would be up to blocked posters to involve the council, so theirs would be the only relevant outcry.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but if I'm not I am feeling disturbed.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 8:40:59
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:10:44
> Moving on might be best for some posters and being powerless for a long time might help them do that.
yes
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 8:46:24
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 8:40:59
> > Moving on might be best for some posters and being powerless for a long time might help them do that.
Now there would be a great twitter.
Thank you, Dr. Bob, for the clarity.
Posted by 10derheart on December 6, 2010, at 2:06:40
In reply to Re: A solution in search of a problem, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 18:16:34
>>...anything other than the civility buddy system that you have going on right now,
Just for the record, as far as I know there is no civility buddy system going on right now. Nor at any time in the past, again at least not to my knowledge. Maybe from time to time people who know and trust one another off the boards have shared a potential post and asked, "Is this going too far? Can I say this?' etc., but that's it, I think. Of course I don't really *know* even that. I'm just guessing based on the fact I've done it and maybe some passing remark someone made a long time ago. I haven't posted regularly here for a long, long time due to issues I cannot get into now. So I haven't needed a buddy in that way for ages. I know way back I certainly checked my posts with one or the other trusted poster before I posted them, when I knew I felt hurt and angry....Usually a deputy thing....
It certainly never approached the level of a system. As I said once before, when a deputy, and once after I had resigned, I specifically offered to do that before and/or after posting for a couple posters who said they either didn't understand the rules or had gotten PBCd/blocked, probably more than once (or both...can't remember...long time ago)
They declined the offer. That's it.
I don't know if others posters, including other past deputies, had similar experiences.
No big point here, and this isn't directed at anyone special, though I did snip a phrase from Solstice's post above. It just keeps bugging me when I read it, thinking of Babblers who don't read here often - that they might see it written then repeated and think it exists.
It doesn't. Unless it is a well-kept secret.
I don't remember who even first came up with the phrase. Maybe Dr. Bob, maybe Dinah, maybe someone else.
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