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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
Hi Babak,
As a matter of fact, a friend of mine is starting TMS-therapy very soon. Although it is still in the testing phase, there's a company in my country offering it to people willing to participate in a clinical setting. She has an appointment next Friday.
It's not very far away from you. All you have to do is cross the North Sea.
> Thank you Maria
>
> That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
>
> I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
>
> I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?My guess would be that it is such a strong anxiolytic and euphoric drug. So much literature on its qualities of easing all worry, all pain, all anxiety; Sir William Osler (old McGill Victorian dr.) called 'God's own medicine', and there is so much literature on its power to send you to oblivion. You might read Quincey's book for a nice description of the heaven and hell of opium, for example.
Given all that, if you say you are crippled without it (and i guess you mean you are emotionally unhappy, not physically crippled), then I would guess you have DEPRESSION, and the heroin is lifting you out of it.
Again, from what i have read on the literature, it is pretty awful getting off (see "Trainspotting"), but I have also read reports that at a very tiny dose it is good for things like bronchitis and diarrhea and stomach ailments, without great risk of the horrors of withdrawal in addiction. Question is, how much would you need for depression;
The fact that it's illegal presents very special problems. I know that many people are now addicted to Vicodin and opiate copies-- if that is what works for you for depression, maybe you should speak to your doctor about it as an alternative to heroin.
Squiggles
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
It will really be appreciated
Thanks again
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
That is very interesting, I use opium on and off for over ten years and then I wanted to come off it but I kept getting this stomuch pain which wouldn't go away even after a year without opium. Finally it turned out to be related to my depression and had nothing to do with opium withdrawal as I kept telling the doctors. An increase in my Effexor dosage stopped the pain but by then I was hooked on Subutex which was hell to kick. It took a month to come off subutex.
It was while I was on subutex that I developed this severe anhedonia. So I ma just wondering may be this anhedonia is related to Subutex & opiods which is a common withdrawal symptoms with heroine addicts but in my case it doesn't go away, not even a year after I came of Subutex and stayed clean of all opiods.
My fear is that opiods, subutex included has permenantly changed my brain chemistry. But is this possible? Is there any documented case or evidence of such permenant change?
It is this adhedonia which is cripling.Can anyone shed some light on this?
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 9:06:56
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
> Can anyone shed some light on this?There are a lot of hits i got under key
names "brain damage" "heroin" "opiates" on
the net, as i am sure you could too. For
example:http://www.rense.com/health3/dragon.htm
But I would not sound the alarm bell, as it
is smoking it that is most pernicious, and
at high dosages-- something which probably
excludes your case.Squiggles
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 11:49:41
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
Hi Babak,
From the website I gather it's in several places in my country (Holland). Below is the link:
http://www.qeeg.nl/?language_id=2
Good luck!
Maria
> Where is your country and do you have a contact number or email address I can use.
>
> It will really be appreciated
>
> Thanks again
Posted by Racer on July 4, 2007, at 14:17:27
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 8:46:33
http://www.nice.org.uk/article.aspx?o=ip346consultation
Apparently, TMS was actually developed in England, at Sheffield, and NICE seems to be studying it. That might suggest that you can find it a bit closer to home.
Yes, heroin can make people feel better. There are a lot of drawbacks to it, though -- and I will always point to additives and lack of quality control as the two biggest dangers involved. If you can find a pdoc who's willing to work with you to find a workable solution, it might just involve opiates. Several people here have had success using a combination including opiates.
Have you been able to try any sort of psychostimulant? Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine? That's made a big difference for me...
Good luck, whatever you end up doing. And I have heard very, very good things about TMS. My fancy pdoc says he's pretty hot on it, because his patients have done so well with it. He said he's sent them to clinical trials in this country, as well as sending them over the border to Canada when it was approved there.
Posted by revaaron on July 4, 2007, at 14:44:47
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
Babak-
Not sure if my previous post was deleted (does that happen?), but I posted a long rambling thing about my experience with this. Email me if you want very detailed first hand information about this. revXaaron at hotXmail dot com (take out the Xes).
Three points are the gist of it:
1. Many have people traveled this road after discovering what you have. Most have found that using recreational doses of opiates just isn't sustainable. Even if you manage to keep yourself supplied (which is harder for street drugs) and keep the tolerance and desire to continue pushing up your dose, there is a time after which the opiate will no longer make you happy, give you energy, and motivate you. It'll make you sedated, lethargic and possibly even dysphoric, which will likely make your worse depression than it is now. And then you go into WDs, which is a new world of incredible depression even in folks who never had it before opiates. It might take a few months or a couple years, but after a while opiates just stop working for the euphoric joy they give you if you take them day in day out without going through a full WD every once. Like I said, not sustainable.
2. Using any street drug as an AD is a horrible idea. If even after point 1 and general knowledge of what opiate addiction is like you want to try using an opiate as an antidepressant, look into bupe, methadone, or at least something else prescription or another known quanity, like poppy pods.
Bupe has the added plus in that it isn't a full agonist like morphine and heroin, it keeps tolerance in check.
3. If life is this crippling, there are some other things to try beyond the SSRIs that are worthwhile. Like others have mentioned, it sounds like more than just garden variety depression.
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » FredPotter, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:59:19
Hardly! No platitudes. It's a vile, disgusting book. Actually in reading Charlie Parker's life it's said that the heroin didn't interfere with his ability to play, but alcohol did. The alcohol killed him in the end, not the heroin
Posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 20:11:55
Methadone is being used by a girl who moved in with her family across the street supplied daily as she was an opiod addict and she's not even depressed anymore. I think she's also on seroquel? Please stop using the heroine. Here we have a show on TV called Intervention and the people using have horrible deterioration of their mind and bodies. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 23:41:21
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
I've tried methadone pills a few times. They seemed to lift depression and anxiety but only after about 3 hours, so perhaps I imagined it. You do hear of people who keep their heroin use under control and it keeps them free of pain and living a normal life, but I'm far too fond of euphoria to go anywhere near the stuff
Posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:10:15
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Sigismund, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:14:15
Babak, a couple of nutritional ideas- L-tyrosine or L-phenylalanine for dopamine production; D-phenylalanine to increase your brain's internal level of opiate (endorphins); and 5-HTP for serotonin. I would try them each seperately, each for at least a week, maybe each one in turn. They can all be taken safely together, but if you can figure out which one is helping the most it might give you some insight as to which neurotransmitters you've got out of whack. I can tell you that with doses of DL-phenylalanine I've gotten relief from opiate cravings.
All of these nutritional supplements have had relatively quick effects. If I'm suffering from serotonin deficiency-induced depression I feel the 5-HTP like a high that I start to feel after only 20 minutes. If I'm not, it just makes me a little sleepy. The DL-phenylalanine doesn't come on as quick, but I notice a definate difference in opiate-related desire and WD symptoms, as well as more energy. The L-tyrosine I felt in a more subtle way, but I could notice a difference in my energy levels within a couple days of dosing with it.
Just out of curiousity: are you disabled? Do you have a job?
Also what do you mean by "H doesn't actually cure my depression"? I mean, for folks with chronic depression nothing usually "cures" their depression- it just makes life livable. With others, being treated for 6 months is enough to bring them out of it.
What was being on a stimulant like for you, if you ever have been? Some have had a lot of luck with dextroamphetamine as an AD. When I've been on it for AD/HD it completely kills my desire to get high, even though I don't feel high on it. I've always had a huge interest in experimenting and reading about various drugs, but when I was on the opiates I also lost interest in other drugs in a very profound way, where even drinking or smoking weed in social situations evoked zero interest.
Posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:23:33
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 4, 2007, at 23:41:21
> ...but I'm far too fond of euphoria to go
> anywhere near the stuffBut that's the truly insidious thing about using most opiates as an anything but a pain med, whether as a treatment for AD/HD, social anxiety, generalized anxiety or depression. The euphoria is great and incredibly helpful in a lot of ways. But even if you decide outright to give your life to opium, heroin, or whatever, even if you say "I like this so much, and it helps so much that it's worth being an addict for the rest of my life, if that's what it takes." Even if you make that choice and have an endless pure supply of opiate it still isn't going to work. After a while, the euphoria is gone. This has nothing to do with tolerance in the sense most folks think of it- you can increase your dose and you still won't be euphoric, until you've had too much and have the negative effects of a minor OD (sweating, extreme sedation, naseua, dizziness). The euphoria of opiates is the most enjoyable drug imaginable for some (including me), but after a year or two, it just doesn't work like it did at first. I'd be willing to pay a lot of money to somehow magically restore my opiate receptors to the state they were in 10 years ago. I'm not addicted to them now in anyway, and haven't had any for months. And before that, not for months again, but the last time I did have an opiate, months after the dose before that, I still didn't get anywhere near the euphoria of the first year or two I was using on a regular basis.
That's the worst thing- when all you want is that high, but nothing in the world will be able to get it. No amount of money, no amount of drug, no potentiators, etc. Which basically means that you either keep wasting money and possibly your health (the opiates never negatively effected me outside of a weight gain from my metabolism being so slow and a poor libido and soft penis). I don't have a horror story about how I lost it all because of opiates. I've never watched a friend die. I don't have HIV or hep C. I never have been rushed to the hospital or had to rush a friend to the hospital. I've never put anything into my vein. I never hit "rock bottom," like a lot of heroin addicts do. I didn't lose anything but the drive to make love to my wife, thousands of dollars (cheap compared to heroin!) the motivation to keep fit, some mental wellbeing (made it dysphoric and depressed after a many years); it did give me sleep apnea and some depression/dysphoria. Not good things, but they're nothing compared to a the kinds of things street drug addicts go through.
What I tried to say before: the most insidious thing about opiates is that when the feeling they give you is what you want the most is when you longer get that feeling and have no way to get it back other than not using for a long time.
Posted by maria3667 on July 8, 2007, at 18:35:23
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » FredPotter, posted by revaaron on July 5, 2007, at 0:23:33
Well,
Babak, where R U?
We are all trying to help you, but you seemed to have dissapeared of the surface of the earth?
Please give us a sign you are alright. I really hope you have taken notice of the sound advice many people have given you. You may not believe it, but there's loads out there WHO CARE FOR YOU !
Posted by deniseuk190466 on July 9, 2007, at 15:26:40
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
Babak,
I feel for you I really do, you are just doing what you can at the moment to survive.
If you are interested in DBS for depression, they were supposed to be starting trials for this over a year ago in Bristol. It might be worthwhile your contacting them.
I could get you the email address if you are interested but you need to get a referral from a Doctor or psychiatrist.
Best Wishes. I hope you get the help you need soon.
Denise
Posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Phillipa on July 4, 2007, at 20:34:55
While I do not believe using an illegal substance is a particularly good way to treat depression, if you have decided to give that route a try, have you ever considering using Ecstasy instead of Heroin?
It is considered to be much safer, much less addictive, and IMO more effective then H. It's also a stimulant, so along with evaporating your depression, you'll have a lot more energy and motivation.Just a thought.
Posted by FredPotter on July 10, 2007, at 19:40:38
In reply to A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
> While I do not believe using an illegal substance is a particularly good way to treat depression, if you have decided to give that route a try, have you ever considering using Ecstasy instead of Heroin?
> It is considered to be much safer, much less addictive, and IMO more effective then H. It's also a stimulant, so along with evaporating your depression, you'll have a lot more energy and motivation.
>
> Just a thought.Until the serotonin crash gets you and you become more depressed than ever
Posted by revaaron on July 10, 2007, at 20:34:50
In reply to A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 10, 2007, at 16:22:13
First: Another random thought- probably not, considering what Babak has said about other opiates, but I think DLPA or just D-phenylalanine would be at least worth trying. Anyone know where to buy bulk DPA, not just overpriced capsules of the stuff?
On MDMA:
Good try, but I think that using MDMA would probably be a lot worse, at least in the recreational doses folks usually use and in typical usage patterns. MDMA can be pretty neurotoxic, where as most opiates used properly, are not all that bad for you, physically. Not saying physical addiction is a good thing, but MDMA and meth/dextro/levoamphetamine carry with them the possibility of both physical addiction and neurological damage, at least in typical abuse dosages.I've no doubt that MDMA can be a useful tool for therapy (like traditional psychedelics, Iboga, etc) when used once in a while, with or without someone in the role of therapist to guide a person through the experience.
MDMA is very far down on my list for 'off label' daily ADs. After using MDMA for a few days in a row its become a lot more like garden variety amphetamine than MDMA. I don't know if an SSRI or 5-HTP would keep this from happening, but still, it isn't a good idea. What'd be the point? Why not try dextroamphetamine or Desoxyn, both of which have proven efficacy and pretty good track record as ADs- and it's a lot more likely you could find some radical doc to prescribe them.
MDMA just isn't an every day sort of drug, even if you don't take safety or the possibility of permanent neurological damage into account. Not to mention the cost of MDMA, how relatively rare it still is in pills sold as "ecstacy" on the street, which can contain all sorts of other drugs, some of which might badly exacerbate a depressed person's condition.
I wonder if there have been studies on the long term effectiveness or danger of of using low dose MDMA for depression? Not bloody likely considering the legal status of MDMA.
Posted by F00TBALL on July 11, 2007, at 13:59:15
In reply to Re: A different thought., posted by revaaron on July 10, 2007, at 20:34:50
I'm going to have to disagree with you. Take a look at this comprehensive study published this year that ranked 20 different drugs from most dangerous to least dangerous.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2026205,00.html
The media has given Ecstasy a bad rap, but it's not nearly as dangerous as Heroin or most other illegal drugs.
Posted by kingcolon on July 11, 2007, at 14:08:00
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 9:01:37
> That is very interesting, I use opium on and off for over ten years and then I wanted to come off it but I kept getting this stomuch pain which wouldn't go away even after a year without opium. Finally it turned out to be related to my depression and had nothing to do with opium withdrawal as I kept telling the doctors. An increase in my Effexor dosage stopped the pain but by then I was hooked on Subutex which was hell to kick. It took a month to come off subutex.
> It was while I was on subutex that I developed this severe anhedonia. So I ma just wondering may be this anhedonia is related to Subutex & opiods which is a common withdrawal symptoms with heroine addicts but in my case it doesn't go away, not even a year after I came of Subutex and stayed clean of all opiods.
> My fear is that opiods, subutex included has permenantly changed my brain chemistry. But is this possible? Is there any documented case or evidence of such permenant change?
> It is this adhedonia which is cripling.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this?I'm using Subutex (buprenorphine) for the past 2 months for depression (history of abuse of opioids as well). Although I see you felt you worsened on BUP, there is nothing in the literature that I can find supporting that BUP worsens or causes depression. That said, it's use in depression is mostly anecdotal. There needs to be more studies. My own reaction is that it is the only medication I've had to date that really seems to have gotten to the bottom of my anhedonia (apart from my previously abused opioids). I'd be interested in what dose you used to take--tiny doses of about 1-2 mg are effective in depression, but larger doses are necessary in actively opioid users.
You say you were "hooked" on Subutex, but there is absolutely no evidence that, taken orally in appropriate doses, it produces addiction (it DOES cause dependency with withdrawal but this is not the same as addiction). There is no euphoria anything like other opioids with it, used this way. It works on other opiate receptors besides the mu receptor, namely, the kappa receptor, and this is actively being studied for depression (kappa antagonist). It would be a shame if you incorrectly concluded you got worse on Subutex if it was really the underlying depression. Perhaps a short course of Subutex again would be helpful to see if you have no effect--if it is going to work, you should know in a week or so.
Posted by revaaron on July 11, 2007, at 15:08:39
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by kingcolon on July 11, 2007, at 14:08:00
I think it's a shame that the words for dependence are so fuzzy and inaccurate. Dependency vs addiction vs habituation; withdrawal vs stoppage syndrome, etc. It'd be nice if we had a strict vocab that folks knew and stuck with.
Don't get me wrong, bupe is quite unabusable compared to methadone (though not as unabusable as using loperamide as a maint med), but I've known my fair share of opiate users who still found a way to abuse bupe. The quality of 'high' might not be like heroin or morphine, but the usage patterns and intent were the same. Not saying everyone does this, but opiate have a knack at finding a way...
Posted by FredPotter on July 11, 2007, at 20:15:56
In reply to Re: A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 11, 2007, at 13:59:15
We have a drug in NZ called methamphetamine or "P". It's quite the most dangerous drug on the planet and yet amphetamines are stated on the list to be less dangerous than benzos. I therefore dismiss that list as ludicrous
Posted by revaaron on July 11, 2007, at 22:20:35
In reply to Re: A different thought., posted by F00TBALL on July 11, 2007, at 13:59:15
> I'm going to have to disagree with you. Take a
> look at this comprehensive study published this
> year that ranked 20 different drugs from most
> dangerous to least dangerous.
>
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2026205,00.htmlSorry, I don't buy it. This list sucks. It would be easier to critique if the criteria were listed. Sorry, but any list the 20 most dangerous drugs that has buprenorphine higher on the list of danger than solvents is *completely* without credibility.
The definition of "danger" used by this list is pretty skewed in some direction considering the kind of neurotoxicity that even non-habitual occasional solvent abuse carries.
> The media has given Ecstasy a bad rap, but it's
> not nearly as dangerous as Heroin or most other
> illegal drugs.The media gives *all* drugs (except tobacco and alcohol) a bad rap, I agree with that entirely.
However, if you think heroin is less dangerous than MDMA, then you've got some more research to do. It depends on what level you take it; as a impure street drug heroin is worse, but that has more to do with the dangers of injecting anything than heroin (or other opiates) as a drug. Pure heroin is safer, not neurotoxic, and while the addiction to opiates isn't a good thing, it is managed relatively easily. Not to down play the dangers of illicit IV drug use, but the idea of heroin being inherently a super-dangerous drug is based in the same kind of drug war propaganda you're asking me to ignore.
The dangers of heroin use would be almost entirely solved by the end of prohibition. The dangers of exist MDMA regardless of how pure your pills are. The danger of ODing on heroin is pretty low except when people mix it with other drugs, especially other downers like alcohol or benzos. The safe margin for MDMA is probably no worse, but the same risk of mixing it with other drugs is there.
However, none of that addresses much more practical issues I listed, to recap:
1. A reliable supply of actual MDMA dose is pretty hard to come by. Unless you are buddies with a chemist, your chances of having access to pure MDMA it next to nil.
Getting actual MDMA (not MD*, d-,l- or meth-amphetamine, ephedrine, DXM, LSD, 2C-*) is certainly possible, but there wouldn't be a thriving community around identifying what are actually in "ecstacy" pills. Knowing the amount of substance in the pill is next to impossible.
...and even if you had access to pharmaceutical grade MDMA:
2. Using MDMA for a few days in a row changes the user's subjective from the magic of MDMA to something closer to "speed." This effect is not uncommon amongst users using MDMA only once a week at parties.
3. Price. $60/day for pills that may or may not be MDMA?
Even most pro-MDMA sources acknowledge that MDMA use, let alone habitual/daily use carries with it a few serious risks, including neurotoxicity.
Sorry, but like I said, I don't buy it. I completely reject the erroneous mythology of psychedelic drug = good and euphoriant = bad that pervades so much of drug culture. It's half government propaganda and half feel good ignorance. Like I said before, taking MDMA a few times, even a once a month probably carries very little risk of damage if done so responsibly and safely. I do agree that some folks have derived great therapeutic value, allowing people to get over various mental blocks.
Using MDMA a few times and having it help you makes it a therapeutic not an antidepressant, which is a common trait among many psychedelic drug. Mescaline and S. divinorum have been used for this kind of positive change but I don't think you would call them "antidepressants."
If you actually know someone who has benefited from using MDMA as an regular-dosing antidepressant successfully, I'd be interested to hear more. What kind of dose do they use? How often?
Aaron
Posted by revaaron on July 11, 2007, at 22:45:08
In reply to Re: A different thought., posted by FredPotter on July 11, 2007, at 20:15:56
> We have a drug in NZ called methamphetamine or
> "P". It's quite the most dangerous drug on the
> planet and yet amphetamines are stated on the
> list to be less dangerous than benzos. I
> therefore dismiss that list as ludicrousIn theory, the difference between street drugs and safely used pharmaceuticals shouldn't be that great. In practice, the gap is extremely wide. Methamphetamine (Desoxyn (tm)) is actually one of the most effective and safe drugs for AD/HD around, well tolerated and with few side effects with most people.
But yeah, that list is completely bunk. Bupe being more dangerous than solvent abuse? I have no idea where you would even start on this. It's odd that it's so low on the list, below a drug like bupe that has probably the least abuse potential of any drugs on the list, let alone the damage that would come from therapeutic or recreational use. Bupe is probably the safest drug on that list, it shouldn't be on that list. Hell, Tylenol/APAP is a quite a bit worse for you than bupe. Solvents, at the other end of the spectrum, can cause brain damage the first time you use and are probably the most dangerous of the drugs on that list in a few ways to measure that.
I'd say methamphetamine is less dangerous than benzos if used as prescribed, and again less dangerous at lower levels of abuse. I've seen what lies at the end of the road of meth abuse, I have no illusions- we have a bad meth epidemic where I live (Midwestern US). The reasons for this are many, somewhat due to the specific effects of the drug but way more due to social and economic factors as well in the effects that prohibition cause (HIV, HepC).
You see something very similar with street heroin and pharmaceutical opiates, including heroin. You could use be addicted to pharmaceutical heroin or morphine, use it every single day of your life, and have no worse for the wear other than the addiction itself. Again, I do not play down the ugliness of heroin withdrawal, but unlike alcohol or benzo withdrawal it won't kill you.
There are a lot of drugs on that list below heroin that can do irreversable damage to your body and/or mind regardless of how much harm reduction you practice, some of them can do this damage without being a regular user.
Aaron
Posted by FredPotter on July 11, 2007, at 23:16:44
In reply to Re: A different thought., posted by revaaron on July 11, 2007, at 22:45:08
When we consider the terrible harm and lack of control of alcohol in Australian aborigines and to a lesser extent amongst Maori, we (the Europeans who have only just arrived), should hang our heads in shame. Alcohol has never been a part of their culture so they find sensible use more difficult than European people. And the fuss we make about the use of Kava, which is so feeble compared to alcohol. Yet we introduced alcohol to the Polynesians and that was apparently OK
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