Posted by Solstice on November 27, 2010, at 14:36:24
In reply to Re: Solstice got good ideas, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 2:17:37
> I started this before. Sorry about not finishing it until now.
I'm glad you were able to get back to it..
> I agree, a lot of talk + little or no movement = stumbling along. Sometimes a lot of talk is necessary before movement. Change can be slow.Yes it can. Maybe we're at a good place for it to be focused enough to feel less like 'stumbling' (without purpose) and more like determined (even if slow) movement toward an improved system?
> > I hear you Muff. It doesn't feel safe when you don't know what to expect. There probably isn't a way to eliminate all inconsistencies. But there is a way to create a structure with a high degree of predictability. Since it's less about 'punishment' and more about restoration, I think whatever inconsistencies show up won't feel as threatening. Perfection is not possible, but when the consequences have a cushion, the imperfections will feel less like sharp glass and more like little bumps.
>
> Predictability is in the eye of the beholder. Would you consider laws against drunk driving to have a high degree of predictability?I don't know how comparable drunk driving laws are to our situation here. Drunk driving laws are implemented across 50 states in innumerable jurisdictions nation-wide by police departments and in courtrooms with a wide variety of judges. At psycho-babble we (thankfully) don't have that level of inconsistency to deal with on a practical level. As I said, I don't think there is a way to completely eliminate all inconsistencies (which create unpredictability). But I do think there is a way for there to be a higher degree of predictability than there is now.
> Some consequences will always feel like sharp glass to some posters.I am a visual thinker big-time and as such Im not always successful at putting words together that accurately represent what Im thinking. I think I failed to convey something important to understanding what I meant in the sentence youre referring to. Here goes: I think what you have right now Bob, is a community of folks who lean on each other to a high degree, and who have been traumatized to varying degrees by the current blocking system. Either they are cut off from the community for extended periods, or those they rely on are cut off. Traumatized might seem like too strong of a word, but all the similar but lesser words I came up with were not strong enough, because the impact has genuinely been very high increasing in potency over time. Ive been observing for a long, long time.. and what I see is a whole community that is perpetually braced for the next block or threat of block. If not for themselves, then for another member who might be less savvy at self-monitoring. My point is that I think its important to understand that what may appear to be an over-reaction to PBC or blocking incidents is a result of the overall effect the current practices have had on the community. Even Scott.. who cites his good fortune in having the verbal aptitude to color inside the lines.. who is well-endowed with wisdom and self-restraint.. even he alludes to what sounds like might be his own hyper-vigilance when he posts. If Scott feels hyper-vigilant, where does that leave members just as valuable, but perhaps less adept at language and expression? What I was trying to convey is that the current blocking system has resulted in a highly hyper-vigilant community. PBC or a warning about a block may sound like a little firecracker to you, Bob, but to this community it sounds like random and deadly gunfire. So my point about the sharp glass is that with a system that provides restoration, any perceived inconsistencies (which are inevitable) in the application of PBCs or blocks will feel much less like theyve stepped on sharp glass, and more like their foot landed on a smooth pebble. The hyper-vigilance will diminish.. and after a while, small things will feel like small things.
> But though perfection isn't possible, improvement is. Could you say more about the difference between punishment and restoration?Right..perfection is not possible. It also wont be possible to have a system that meets everyones criteria for ideal. Improvement, though - is indeed a goal worth pursuing!
Punishment is about causing another pain, with the intent of it teaching that person to correct a behavior. If the punished person is impulsive, stubborn, or a slow-learner the concept of punishment generally tends to increase the pain until the pain is sufficient to cause the offender to correct their behavior. Here, isolation from the community is extraordinarily painful for many.. the equivalent of being banished to a lonely island.
Restoration is more about inclusion. Let me describe my introduction to the concept, which was a profound experience. My daughter was 4, attending a private pre-school. I was there at lunchtime to pick her up and watched this unfold. A boy on the playground grabbed a handful of sand and threw it at a girl, hitting her in the face and head. She burst into tears and ran to the teacher (owner) Mr. Davies, John threw sand at me! Mr. Davies holds the little girls arm and in his gruff voice calls out John come here! John, hands at his sides, walks with his head down up onto the deck where Mr. Davies always stands as he monitors the playground during lunch. Johns mother was also there, arriving just in time to see what happened. She rushes up behind John to the deck, apologizing profusely, telling John how 'bad' he is. Mr. Davies says What are you apologizing for? She responds For giving birth to him? She was mortified.. embarrassed. She declared Mr. Davies, please do the worst thing you can do to him.. put him in timeout forever.. take away everything he likes.. I cant believe this my son is so horrible! By now Mr. Davies has John and the girl by the arm, and he tells the mom to wait off to the side. He talks very directly to the boy Why did you throw sand at Kelly? Were you defending yourself? John mumbled something about not knowing why he did it. Mr. Davies has the two kids facing each other, the girl still crying. He says.. gently.. even kindly John.. look what you did to Kelly. You got sand all over her face.. it looks like it got in her eyes too.. did you get sand in your eyes, Kelly? Did it hurt? Kelly nods. He takes Johns hand in his and says Look, its all over in her hair as he makes John feel the clumps of sand in her hair. By now Kellys sobbing is subsiding. He looks at John and says Now, what I want you to do is go in there with Kelly (inside the school), help her get the sand out of her hair.. and when youre finished with that, I want you to stay with Kelly until she is finished crying and is ready to rejoin the group out here.
Wow. It was like watching magic. My first child was only 4, and that day charted the course for the kind of parent I developed myself into. Mr. Davies didnt shame John. John did not have to become defensive. John started out cringing, but as Mr. Davies showed him the effect of his action on this little girl, the sorrow John felt came through his eyes, and the care he took at helping Kelly get the sand out of her hair. By the time Mr. Davies sent the two of them into the school, I dont think there was anywhere else John wanted to be. And he stayed with Kelly until she was ready to come back out. John was not punished or isolated. He did suffer some consequences. His play was interrupted. He feared the potential consequences. He felt his moms anger. He also felt Mr. Davies' mercy.. and the opportunity to repair was a gift. John had to experience every minute of the effect he had on the girl. It was just about the most beautiful thing Id ever seen as I saw John and Kelly walk out, her smiling.. feeling restored and him smiling.. with his head up as he went back to playing. I guarantee you that boy never picked up another handful of sand without really being aware of what was in his hand.
I hope this story leaves you with a sense of the Restoration I envision. Of course, the details of this story would not play out in exactly the same way here with incivilities. But I think the spirit of the concept is the goal. Where people arent categorized as bad or good where people are not isolated from their support system for extended periods... where the goal of maintaining civility is still upheld, but in a manner that is more compassionate that provides a way for members who were uncivil to repair and be restored were theres no administrative need to punish.
Nothing is perfect, and there will certainly be people who show up who have every intention of being disruptive. People like that may find themselves in more rigid blocking situations. But for the vast majority of members here who really want to be part of this community, who rely on each other for support, who dont want to feel afraid to speak here.. but are genuinely uncertain about their ability to self-monitor and who may from time to time be cited for incivility.. there is a way to provide a more merciful method of upholding civility guidelines without the spirit of the membership becoming collateral damage.
I think a wholesale amnesty for all those currently blocked would be merciful. I think providing a way for those who violate the civility guidelines to be returned to the community would be restorative. The current apology provision works well some of the time. But there are highly valued members here who have a less well-developed ability to take advantage of that provision. There needs to be something more assistive, that doesn't put pressure on skills that aren't as well-developed.
Solstice
poster:Solstice
thread:969088
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/971462.html