Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 0:06:06
In reply to Re: not that strong » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 23:08:49
> > Right, but that is not an aside, that's a huge component of internet communication,
>
> yes. and all communication not just intenet communication.
>
> >and certainly enough for there to be a great deal of doubt as to whether or not something is "invalid" or "contradictory"
>
> yes. i was agreeing with you.
>
> > Some things cannot always be explained, you will never truly know how an apple tastes to me.
>
> dare i say... that you are absolutely correct that i will never know how an apple tastes to you - AND i can explain why??? there is a principled reason why i can never have knowledge of that.Well to me that's not important, what's important is that there are crucial componants in an exchange that aren't always going to be conveyed (I know, you agree with that)
So I think it's reductive to try and and place some arguments into a formula and come up with a "logical" conclusion. Or at least
it's not something that needs to be declared.> > > if the physical world, at base, is a mathematical function then why not human beings as well given that they are part of the physical world?
>
> > If. I would have to ascribe to the premise in order to discuss the conclusion. I don't
>
> ok. i'll alter it slightly and turn it into an argument (note this is a little different to the claim above - i'm going to strengthen the argument a little by weakening the claim)
>
> P1) human beings are objects in the physical world.
> P2) the behaviour of objects in the physical world can be described as a mathematical function.
> ______________________________________________
> C) the verbal behavior of human beings can be described as a mathematical function.
>
> What do you think???
> It is valid (IF you accept the premises are true then you would be contradicting yourself in denying the conclusion)
> Unless - you maintain that verbal behaviour is different from non-verbal behaviour (in which case the argument would be trading on an equivocation and the argument would be invalid)
> But - if there is no equivocation between 'behaviour' and 'verbal behaviour' then if you accept the premises you have to accept the conclusion to avoid contradiction.
>
> so... if you don't want to accept the conclusion then what is to be done? you could say that one or more of the premises are actually false. it doesn't matter if the argument is valid if one or more of the premises are false then there is no reason to accept the conclusion.
>
> P1) seems to be right...
> though you could attempt to argue that we are not merely physical beings, we have an immaterial side to us as well (in which case P1 is wrong to imply that we are merely or simply physical beings)
> P2)might be hard to deny. i defer to the physicists there...
> so if there is a problem i guess it is to do with P1)???
> ???
> there are probably different ways of looking at this...Again, I think it's concretizing the impossible.
Perhaps one day I'll think enough of self ordained "thinkers" (not you) to hazard an answer.I do very well at logic puzzles. The subject matter on that one though, underlines where our thinking diverges.
>
> even if the argument fails to provide good reason to believe the conclusion (by being invalid, or by one of the premises being false) it doesn't follow that the conclusion is false. it just follows that the argument is not rationally persuasive. there could be better arguments for that conclusion. there could be better arguments for the opposite conclusion. that is where you have to weigh arguments...
>
> > > 'expressions of feeling and thought' are not candidates for validity and invalidity.
>
> 'expressions of feeling and thought' are not even candidates for being true and false (so long as one speaks or expresses genuinely). That is why if you say 'i feel hot' it is silly for someone to try to deny that.
>
> > I would love to see an argument constructed and communicated without thought, ideas, or feelings.
>
> There are two building blocks of arguments: thoughts or propositions
> there are two candidates for truth and falsity:
> thoughts or propositions
> nothing else can be true or false
> and nothing aside from arguments
> composed of thoughts or propositions
> can be valid or invalid
> that is analytic
> that is just what philosophers mean by those terms
>
> > "Organized" Philosophy is very much a construct unto itself.
>
> yes. just like 'proton' 'electron' etc are interdefined by their relationship to each other so are 'truth' 'proposition' 'thought' 'valid'
> philosophy is a technical subject like any other
> it is just hard because it masquerades as english
> with no translation required.
>
> >When used right from the text I find it rather like shotput. If you aren't going into the olympics.. what application does it have?
>
> i guess some people just like shotput
> they enjoy it
> so they practice it
> get good at it
> then they get to go to the olympics
> same with philosophy
> same with philosophy
> i am interested in the relationship between
> thought
> language
> the external world
> how these things interrelate
> what is the contribution of each
> what are the limits of each
> what does that tell us about who and what we are
> and what our place in the world is
> the limits of what we can know
> i don't know why
> but sometimes i find peace thereOh, I did not mean "What reason is there for it"
Not at all, reasons are so very personal.
I meant the application to the world, and only because you had mentioned that it alienates you from people and you seemed uncomfortable with that, but I could well be wrong. And I do find it odd when people (not you) can debate for hours how best to help people, when they could actually be helping people.
> others say we need to improve logic so it more acurately reflects englishAnd this is that type of philisophical quandry
that I become irrationally irritated by.
I think of the old boys network having a meeting, drinking coffee, discussing how the world should be, becuase of course they already know just *how* it is..Now that, was me. That was not intended to offend, or sneakily insult.. that's just my vision when I hear statements like that.
> emotions
> how to fit them in to the picture
> logic is about the structure of thought
> emotions might have more to do with desires or goals
> more to do with reasons for action
> what motivates us to move
> i don't know...
Too bad you have to kill a butterfly to get it to lie still under a microscope.
poster:Gabbi-x-2
thread:500533
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050530/msgs/509472.html