Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 23:08:49
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 21:42:59
> Right, but that is not an aside, that's a huge component of internet communication,
yes. and all communication not just intenet communication.
>and certainly enough for there to be a great deal of doubt as to whether or not something is "invalid" or "contradictory"
yes. i was agreeing with you.
> Some things cannot always be explained, you will never truly know how an apple tastes to me.
dare i say... that you are absolutely correct that i will never know how an apple tastes to you - AND i can explain why??? there is a principled reason why i can never have knowledge of that.
> > if the physical world, at base, is a mathematical function then why not human beings as well given that they are part of the physical world?
> If. I would have to ascribe to the premise in order to discuss the conclusion. I don'tok. i'll alter it slightly and turn it into an argument (note this is a little different to the claim above - i'm going to strengthen the argument a little by weakening the claim)
P1) human beings are objects in the physical world.
P2) the behaviour of objects in the physical world can be described as a mathematical function.
______________________________________________
C) the verbal behavior of human beings can be described as a mathematical function.What do you think???
It is valid (IF you accept the premises are true then you would be contradicting yourself in denying the conclusion)
Unless - you maintain that verbal behaviour is different from non-verbal behaviour (in which case the argument would be trading on an equivocation and the argument would be invalid)
But - if there is no equivocation between 'behaviour' and 'verbal behaviour' then if you accept the premises you have to accept the conclusion to avoid contradiction.so... if you don't want to accept the conclusion then what is to be done? you could say that one or more of the premises are actually false. it doesn't matter if the argument is valid if one or more of the premises are false then there is no reason to accept the conclusion.
P1) seems to be right...
though you could attempt to argue that we are not merely physical beings, we have an immaterial side to us as well (in which case P1 is wrong to imply that we are merely or simply physical beings)
P2)might be hard to deny. i defer to the physicists there...
so if there is a problem i guess it is to do with P1)???
???
there are probably different ways of looking at this...even if the argument fails to provide good reason to believe the conclusion (by being invalid, or by one of the premises being false) it doesn't follow that the conclusion is false. it just follows that the argument is not rationally persuasive. there could be better arguments for that conclusion. there could be better arguments for the opposite conclusion. that is where you have to weigh arguments...
> > 'expressions of feeling and thought' are not candidates for validity and invalidity.
'expressions of feeling and thought' are not even candidates for being true and false (so long as one speaks or expresses genuinely). That is why if you say 'i feel hot' it is silly for someone to try to deny that.
> I would love to see an argument constructed and communicated without thought, ideas, or feelings.There are two building blocks of arguments: thoughts or propositions
there are two candidates for truth and falsity:
thoughts or propositions
nothing else can be true or false
and nothing aside from arguments
composed of thoughts or propositions
can be valid or invalid
that is analytic
that is just what philosophers mean by those terms> "Organized" Philosophy is very much a construct unto itself.
yes. just like 'proton' 'electron' etc are interdefined by their relationship to each other so are 'truth' 'proposition' 'thought' 'valid'
philosophy is a technical subject like any other
it is just hard because it masquerades as english
with no translation required.>When used right from the text I find it rather like shotput. If you aren't going into the olympics.. what application does it have?
i guess some people just like shotput
they enjoy it
so they practice it
get good at it
then they get to go to the olympics
same with philosophy
same with philosophy
i am interested in the relationship between
thought
language
the external world
how these things interrelate
what is the contribution of each
what are the limits of each
what does that tell us about who and what we are
and what our place in the world is
the limits of what we can know
i don't know why
but sometimes i find peace there
but translating from english to logic...
it gives me a headache
some reformists think we should rewrite english
so it more acuratly reflects logic
others say we need to improve logic so it more acurately reflects english
but it would give me less headaches if they just met
if they just met somehow
but i take your point that they do not :-(
> You use terms and methods that are specific to a Philisophical approach as if they are basic truths, or concepts.yes. that is what the terms mean in philosophy by definition (bang thump) ;-)
we might be persuaded to revise our definitions but we would need good reason...>If I were a born again Christian, and conversed as if my truth was what everything stemmed from how palatable do you think you would find it?
i would describe it as playing a different language game
i have talked about this a little over on faith...> That was thought by philosophers, again one tiny aspect of things, hardly universal.
Ah. but they were wrong. that was my point there. they claimed language was supposed to be for making truth evaluable claims about the world and that was shown to be false.
we do many other things with language
and one function isn't more important than another
the idea is...
the idea is...
to learn what the terms are supposed to mean
how the story is supposed to run
and then the crucial bit is in seeing what the story lets you do
logic explains a lot
a lot of stuff that isn't explained by anything else
philosophical theories are attempts to explain
there are problems to be sure
but the game is supposed to be about coming up with something consistent and explanatory
a theory has structure
it has propositions related to one another in certain ways
and logic helps us with respect to internal consistency
and working out how those propositions are related
i don't know what to say
it is a world view
but it offers me explanations better than any i could have come up with without studying philosophy
and there is enough room
enough problems
to keep me interested in improving the theory
to tell a better story
to explain and account for more stuffemotions
how to fit them in to the picture
logic is about the structure of thought
emotions might have more to do with desires or goals
more to do with reasons for action
what motivates us to move
i don't know...
poster:alexandra_k
thread:500533
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050530/msgs/509448.html