Posted by cybercafe on September 9, 2002, at 14:29:53
In reply to Re: Nardil v Parnate, Klonopin, Xanax, gabaergic, SP, posted by chad_3 on September 9, 2002, at 11:04:03
>like Nardil - Parnate still is usually effective at reducing interpersonal sensitivity, low motivation, and most types of associated depressions. Agressivness or "anti-social" behavior around people (even while not "afraid" to do so) - is more likely with Parnate than Nardil - often people taking Parnate for primary SP are not really "afraid" to be around people - but rather find they would prefer to avoid them - and still end up alone most of the time - not particularly social - but definitely active and productive in more solitary type work or pursuits. Just IMO based on what I've heard out their so far. Perhaps your experience with Parnate has been more succesfull than the ones I've heard about ...
ummm.. i think any type of stimulating drug is more likely to produce more asocial behaviour ... remember introverts tend to be more stimulated than extroverts? and probably happier, too..
but then maybe i just like parnate because i'm bipolar depressed, and under stimulated more than a pure SP individual with no depression?
it's really convenient to hear your comparisons... how did you arrive at your conclusions re: parnate vs. nardil?
> I think 5ht, DA, and GABA agonists are they agents shown most effective for SP to date.
ahhh... but pure stimulants (dopamine only i think) seem to worsen anxiety no? ....
but you are probably right at least about 5ht and GABA ... that would explain why nardil kicks moclobemides butt ... cuz of the GABA transaminase inhibition ..... give moclobemide some effect on GABA, and it might kick butt too
ummm... i have always found it very very easy to start a conversation with strangers... but after the first 2 seconds are up i tend to get scared ... i always thought that meant i was lacking norepenephrine (reward for continuing behaviours?) ....... or is fear of being looked at/judged caused mainly by GABA?
>Nardil boosts all 3. I do think 5ht plays a role - but while the SSRI's boost 5ht, then also decrease whole brain DA (maybe good for depression, but tending to increase passitivtiy at the expense of social and sexual assertivness (initiation), exploratory behavior and disinhibition). Nardil instead of depeleting dopamine rather apparently moderately boosts it, consistent with the above advantages associated with DA++.
i thought drugs that increase dopamine tend to relieve depression but cause anxiety (i.e. stimulants) .... doesn't that contradict what you are saying above?
> > however doesn't evidence seem to suggest that in fact moclobemide is not better than nardil ?
> >
> Interesting point - but IMO I have yet to see evidence pointing to much efficacy for moclobmoide. I think the moclobomide studies arehmmm... actually i think my point sucked, because it didn't take into account the fact that moclobemide has no effect on GABA (as far as i know) ..... :)
>moclobomide for SP (more than any other med) - 2 of them show NO efficacy, 2 of them show EXTREME (good) efficacy, and 1 shows modest efficacy.
did the studies that show efficacy use a larger dose or longer time period than those that didn't?
>Nardil and Klonopin show robust results in all studies for SP. I have yet to hear of any
hey klonopin alone shows robust results in studies for SP no? (i'm guessing)
>lacks robust efficacy for SP. Maybe someone will prove otherwise. I hope so - because the side effect profile of moclobomide is practically unsurpassed among psychotropic drugs. IMO,
there was a lady in a support group i went to who said moclobemide was very good for her anxiety -- much better than SSRIs .... but then what isn't better than SSRIs? :)
>with SP. Coincidentally there are studies that have shown also that MAOI-B + MAOI-A inhibition leads to axiolytic effect, while MAOI-A alone (eg; moclobomide) or MAOI-B alone (selegline low dose) does not.
cool.. do you have a link?
oh btw wouldn't high dose of either one have both MAOI-A and MAOI-B effect?
> I was able to tolerate well (still had high energy, cognition, and good sleep) - high Klonopin + Parnate (also high Klonopin + Effexor). But still axiogenic. Xanax definitely
parnate made you more anxious?
>but it's tendency to cause insomnia may result in daytime sedation. Overall I think MAOI's are activating - moreso than all SSRi's except Prozac and the SNRI Effexor, to which I think they are more comparable.
wow if what you say is true i would much rather be on nardil..... basically you are saying that people who report bad side effects on nardil are those who have just started the drug and not those who have been on it for a while?
and they probably overreact because their experience on SSRIs is that side effects don't get better which is not valid to apply to MAOIs?> Moboclobomide is milder - I thought it was probably a pretty good antidepressant ... no? I know that when they have tried to use it for SP in studies, they always push the dose extremely high.
yeah my doc doesn't use high dosages... right now i'm sitting at 30 mg parnate (bottom of therapeutic window) and getting a great effect -- and i've always taken high dosages of paxil and effexor with much less effect (40 mg and 300 mg, respectively) ...
> If you want Zyprexa - certainly you won't have much trouble in 2002....
is there a better drug for someone who "thinks too much"
to take enough klon to get me to stop thinking puts me in a "stupor" or puts me to sleep
> Some people report a lot of side effects with nardil - I believe that these can be managed if they are unavoidable - by reducing the dose and augmenting. Anyway - I would be interested in
i guess i'm just anti-benzo... i want an anxiolytic cocktail that does not cause drowsiness or cognitive effects.... also don't like the ups and downs i had on klon
>discussing it with you sometimes in email if you want - I have been a "human gineua pig" in earlier years - have tried different things so maybe we could learn something from each other. Anyway was great to hear you comments on SP and thanks for the input and feedback.
yes i find you to be quite informative and enjoy discussing things with you very much, thanks :)
poster:cybercafe
thread:119071
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020906/msgs/119380.html