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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 13:48:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Shortelise on February 18, 2005, at 13:22:21
does reading all of this thread help you to know that you are not alone in this?
Plenty of us are plagued by this same issue.
I hope you realize that the tangent your thread has taken is all very much an answer to your first thread...
do you feel a little less alone? At least here on babble?
I hope so,
sunny10
Posted by littleone on February 18, 2005, at 17:59:46
In reply to Emotional Abandonment, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:45:03
Daisy, thank you for sharing, gave me some stuff to consider.
Abandonment came up for me for the first time just the other day. I was cranky with my T because in a prior session he had tried to dig into a very upsetting topic for me literally as he was about to stand up and finish the session. I was an absolute wreck when I left.
When this was raised with him at our next session, I was saying "you raised that just as you were about to leave". He talked about this and said how most people would consider that I was the one leaving. He doesn't go anywhere. I get what he's saying, but for me, he's the one leaving. I'd sit in there all day if I could.
Besides that, I haven't really delved into this aspect much. Although I'm sure it is a buried issue for me.
I suspect that I'm so detached with people because I fully expect to be abandoned. I don't know if I have a fear of it as such. It's just something I know will happen so by staying detached I'm protecting myself from the inevitable.
Also, I must say that I am just flabbergastered by how much you remember from your sessions. You could almost do a total playback. I'm flat out remembering the main point discussed. It astounds me.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:12:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by messadivoce on February 17, 2005, at 1:31:56
I've been following your saga and I'm truly crushed for you. I wish I knew how to help. I hear what you are saying about not knowing what life will throw at you...God knows I never say anything more, "well, it could be worse..."
Hang in there. Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:15:21
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by partlycloudy on February 17, 2005, at 7:19:43
I hope you have success with rewriting your script. It is hard to hear those old messages over and over again.
The more I read about parental emotional availability, the more I worry about what my own kids might feel later. They seem sort of well adjusted now, but who knows? Espcecially the youngest one. Amazing what our parents did to us, isn't it?
I hope you straighten things out with your therapist soon. I'd be frustrated too.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:18:52
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, posted by Tabitha on February 17, 2005, at 10:23:24
I hadn't thought of adding a third voice to the dialog. It might be interesting. I can identify my gate keeper when she shows up, mostly because all the "should and shouldn'ts" flood back.
I think I'm still trying to believe that I should soothe the younger parts of me. I think "she" is/was unloveable and I'm not ready to give up this concept yet. I need a reason for all the abuse, even while I know there may not really be one. Does that make sense?
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:23:11
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:46:29
I'll definitely keep you posted. I hope I learn fast.
At least I feel like I cycle through it faster and like you I can talk to myself about why what I'm feeling is not logical. And I tell my therapist all of it, (well, almost) every scary thought about him leaving, changing, getting sick of this, getting mad...all of it. I just can't seem to keep it to myself anymore. He accepts it all and always tells me he is glad I brought it up because otherwise it is another secret I'm keeping and things get really big when they aren't brought out into the open.
I hope you find someone to work with soon. It is a lonely journey. I'm glad you have us though.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:25:10
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by judy1 on February 17, 2005, at 14:46:28
Thank you for sharing your experiences, Judy. Sounds like a tough road.
It is clear that being terminated is hard and painful. I'm glad you recognize your own resilence and feel so strong. Nice to know there is hope for the rest of us.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:29:59
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on February 17, 2005, at 14:57:16
I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to shout
"I shouldn't have said that!!" It is a weird feeling to want to take it all back and declare "nope, that never happened. Sorry, guess I was just hallucinating, or something." I've actually read where people do this.Having someone know so much about you is very scary. My therapist often says that relationships are living things and as such need care and attention. And they change and evolve over time. So right now it might feel scary as we build the relationship, but at a later time it might feel good to have someone know you so well. I hope he is right.
Nice to have friends who completely understand the fears. Thanks for being here.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:43:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » daisym, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
Thank you for writing all of that for me. I've read it several times and I nod my head and say, "yes, said that. Yup, that too." It felt so good to see myself reflected so completely and to see your positive outcome. I know it took a long while to write it all down but it means a lot to me.
I'm glad you found a therapist who could hold you and go through all of this with you. It is really hard to understand why anyone would allow you to tell them all of the awful details and want to feel the feelings with you, but it feels so essential...and each twist and turn brings new fears and new exposure. I feel just like you described, "is this the thing that will change your mind about me? OR this...or this...?"
I had one of those adult to adult conversation with him on Friday. I said, "isn't it hard to listen to all of this?" He said, "yes, sometimes. But only because I know how much pain you were in and are still in. Isn't it hard for you too?" He went on to say that he works hard to keep his emotional capacity healthy and sometimes that is easier to do with some clients than with others. But if he was closing down, or needed a break, he strongly suspected that I would sense it before he did, given my radar.
I'm not there yet about vacations. I'm so impressed with your ability to not see it as an abandonment and to keep your fears in check as to her returning. I told my therapist that I recognized that he needed vacations to recoup and stay strong for me. But that it still wasn't OK with me that he went away...:)
Thank you for your belief that I will find the peace you have. I get it for a few days at a time now, so perhaps it is coming.
Take good care.
Daisy
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:48:31
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger, posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 5:36:29
(((vwoolf)))
Your situation sounds so frightening. I hope it gets better soon.
I cried for my mother on Thursday. Surprised me a lot. I would not ever wish to talk to her about this, nor do I go to her for emotional comfort much. She is a great lady and a huge problem solver. But, she doesn't "do" feelings nor tears. So I'm sure that this longing for her was very old and very young.
I'm glad you can tell your therapist what is happening. I'm keeping you in my prayers.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:55:41
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by littleone on February 18, 2005, at 17:59:46
Ah -- the memory thing. I've always been good at visual replay. I think it is why I got such good grades. Sometimes I can't reconstruct sessions, but usually I try to journal them before they get distorted in my brain. For example, he said, "it is OK to rest from all of this on the weekends." Two days later I had it twisted to, "I wish you would give it a rest over the weekend (ie, don't call me)" But, I went back and reread my journal and nope, that is not what he said. It also helps that I go a lot, I think.
I think for a long time I held myself emotinally apart from most people, except maybe my children and my siblings. I didn't even really recognize I did this until I entered therapy. I was available to help them, but I didn't trust anyone with my emotional stuff. I think you got it right, we almost expect to be abandoned at some point.
It is interesting that you describe your therapist as leaving when you are the one who physically leaves his office. It should be an interesting thing to explore.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:59:28
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, Daisy, posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 13:48:43
Yes, reading through all of this does help. I wish there was another answer besides time and repeated reassurance. But of course, I've been asking for my therapist to use his magic wand all along, I hate how long it all takes. (darn overachieving personality)
Amazing the spectrum of distress that can be caused by attachment failures, isn't it?
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 19:17:17
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Shortelise on February 18, 2005, at 13:22:21
I could have written what you wrote about crying. How about these lines:
"Crying never solves anything."
"I'll give you something to cry about!"
"Tears are weak and girly. Don't use them to manipulate people into feeling sorry for you."I learned a long time ago not to cry. I think that is why when I cry my therapist doesn't want me to wipe away the tears, he always says "leave them, it's OK for me to see them." We've been talking about tears a lot lately. Like how is it possible for one person to have so many?!
I'm with you on your description of limpet-like behavior and running away. I freeze up too, not doing either thing. I like the flight or fight response analogy. I guess my fight response this time is stronger than my flight. I haven't left yet, at least. I do trust him. I just don't trust myself to keep it altogether and to know when enough is enough. I think I test a lot...I poke and prod and ask and question and read and research and go back to poking again.
After all, isn't this a set up to get hurt? We learn to trust and the goal is to eventually not have this trusted person in our life anymore. I've been left enough, thanks. He completely acknowledges this aspect of therapy but tells me he's available as long as I need him, years and years even. *sigh* I guess I shouldn't think about that part yet.
Mostly it is my fear that my life is so complicated that even the most experienced therapist would say, "geez, what a mess. I don't think I can help you much. You look like you are doing pretty well anyway." My therapist know just how clingy and needy I can get, and so far he has tolerated it just fine.
Thanks for the nice words about insight. Sometimes I think I'm just feeling my way in the dark.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:09:29
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by partlycloudy on February 17, 2005, at 7:19:43
Oh golly, PC. Our stories are very similar. It took me a long time and months of therapy to decide I needed to deal with my mom as she is and stop trying to get her to be what she isn't. Of course I still slip now and then when I am needy or stressed.
And I think I have a copy of that tape. :(
I hope your efforts at re-recording it are successful!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:13:10
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » daisym, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
Thanks for sharing that, LG04. It's good to hear you are doing well.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:21:41
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » Shortelise, posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 19:17:17
Daisy,
Sorry I am late to this thread. I was thinking about abandonment myself recently. I always have to pull out my Palm and verify that we are scheduled for the next week at the same time. It's always been that day and time...for months, now. He even tells me he is putting it in his schedule through March or something. But I have to check. I used to blame it on faulty memory, but lately I realized that I just needed the reasurrance that he'll be there when I come.Yuck. That's a little worry. I can't imagine the intensity of what you are describing. I'm glad your T is reassuring.
I also think it's interesting what you and someone else on this thread said about sensing stuff based on pauses, comments, etc. I bet you are very good at reading people, due to your experiences. That probably is helpful and difficult at the same time.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by judy1 on February 20, 2005, at 17:24:24
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » judy1, posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:25:10
As painful as the possibility of abandonment is, I truly think that all of us have the strength to deal with it. It's the 'fear' part that is so incredibly debilitating because it carries so much baggage for many of us, when or if it comes you are essentially presented with the fact. And as survivors of child abuse, etc. we have been through much, much worse than simply losing a therp. My intention isn't to belittle the fear of abandonment, it's to examine what is really happening- and that is the recognition that what we have experienced is in the past, we have survived it, and nobody can take that away from us. I hope this made sense.
take care, judy
Posted by cursed_one on February 25, 2005, at 17:49:10
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » daisym, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
i have read these posts and can sympathize with everyone. Abandonment issues are ones that take a lifetime of hard healing work to overcome. A bit of my own experiences: had an emotionally cruel mother, emotionally unavailable father. Married an emotionally unavailable/distant man. Am estranged from my entire extended family - they are into drug/alcohol abuse, i am not. My husband told me to find fulfillment outside the marrriage (we have not had sex in YEARS) - so i did - 5 years into it and i am a mess - guess what - he is an emotionally abusive in subtle ways i cannot cope with. i havehad many therapists - One died (not his fault), One i saw for about 8 years. i had a medical law suit for a birth injury which left my daughter partially
paralysed at birth and she was supeoned for my records. She called me frantic. i begged her not to hand over all the deeply personal letters i wrote her over the course of the 8 years. Her personal notes i understood she had to hand over
- she wasn't even amenable to me and her going over them and maybe a few pages just happened to "disappear" over the years - if they would even realize they were gone. Well to make a long story short - the jury was read all my dark secret skeletons and i lost the case. That evening i guess the world came crashing down and i tried to end my life. Was in ICU for a week - don't remember a damn thing - after that they
put me in a psych hospital - been in another since my release. Trust????? What is that????Therapists are people and when push comes to shove - they cover their own vulnerable *sses before they cover YOURS. Don't be fooled. i went to a therapist at the behest of my psychiatrist - he would not see me unlesss i was also in therapy - i saw him maybe 10 times. Granted he was a nice guy but when he said to me - after
my talking to him about my not wanting to be here any more except for the fact that my children would be irrevocably devestated - he said - well then why not focus on your children and make them your priority - my god how simple why did i not think of that before wowow *sarcasm i hope you realize*. That was his first faux pas. Then when i would not follow his advice he asked me why i was coming - i felt like kneeling and prostrating myself saying "oh wise therapist forgive this ignorant patient,
i will follow all your worthy and generous advice and be a better patient" i never went back - he never even called me. Sooooooooo - whats the answer? Take another chance - or more pills next time?
Posted by 10derHeart on February 25, 2005, at 19:19:21
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » LG04, posted by cursed_one on February 25, 2005, at 17:49:10
Cursed One,
Hi, and welcome to Babble. Glad you felt comfortable posting here.
I'm so sorry to hear of the pain and disappointment these many life events must have caused for you. Any one alone could devastate a person, and you've had way more than your share of both family and therapist problems.
To have a therapist die, I shudder to even imagine. And in the other situation with your letters, you must have felt completely betrayed by her final decision. I won't say I can imagine how crushing that would be either.
But I do have to respectfully disagree with a broad generalization about therapists being only out for themselves, or never to be trusted. I have been blessed with two wonderful therapists. I am alive today in large part because of the relationship I had with a former therapist, because of the strong, caring influence he had (inside my mind/heart) when I was seriously suicidal. There really are good ones out there - even great ones, IMO.
But I can surely get why you would feel just like you do. We are all shaped by our experiences, and yours have been terribly difficult. Hope you have some help and support now that you believe in - at least a little.
I pray for you that the answer is that there will be no next time, because you will keep fighting for the help you need from a caring professional. Or, if it gets so bad again, you will reach out and let someone help you. The answer isn't more pills (if I understood that to be an overdose reference), of that I'm sure. I read how you felt bad when a pdoc (psychiatrist) said this, but as a mother I have to say - your children DO need you to stay here in this world with them. Those who've worked with/know suicide survivors, know they are left with terrible agony and guilt.
Please take care and I hope you keep posting so we can get to know you. This is a wonderful place for support, especially when all else seems to be failing. :-) - 10derHeart
PS - For the future, it's a custom here to help out more sensitive posters by putting the word *trigger* in the subject line if you write about suicide or self injury (SI). You had no way to know, so it's perfectly fine - I did it for you. That way, those who may be upset by those topics can choose not to read.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 25, 2005, at 19:21:32
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » LG04, posted by cursed_one on February 25, 2005, at 17:49:10
Posted by cursed_one on February 26, 2005, at 0:06:11
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandon(*poss slight trigger*) » cursed_one, posted by 10derHeart on February 25, 2005, at 19:19:21
Thank you 10derHeart for your response to my entry and for welcoming me. i look forward to reading and posting more here - in the hopes of enhancing as well as learning as much as i can.
i do feel i have to clear up a misconception that you have picked up upon reading my original post. i do not think all therapists are "out for themselves". People who choose to go into this profession i am sure have a desire to help others and truly want to stimulate positive change and growth. i am sure my previous therapist did in the safety of her office. What i was suggesting is that when it comes to anyone - therapist, teacher, doctor, garbage man, receptionist, etc feeling their own safety (legal in my particular case) threatened, they will foremost think of protecting themselves first - it's natural. This is, in my opinion,a flaw in the whole process and why i feel there can never truly be any 100% sure fire way to trust 100%. Most don't understand the legal system and when a therapist tells you on that first visit whatever you say stays between you and he/she - they are basically lying to you - i am not saying they are even doing it intentionally.
i don't know what the answer is - for myself, certainly not for anyone else. i just want to allow my own story to be known so no one else ever has to suffer the indignation and humiliation of being grilled by the defense lawyer about my very personal history (8 years), for 2 and a half days on the stand, me trying to protect the future of my sweet child,and end up loosing a trial because i was such a "f*ck up" - in the lawyers, judges, and juries eyes. No one should have to go through that blind as i did.
Again thank you all for giving me a forum here and i will be more sensitive about using *pst* in the future
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2005, at 0:18:52
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandon(*poss slight trigger*) » 10derHeart, posted by cursed_one on February 26, 2005, at 0:06:11
They can do some things to protect you, though. And you have the right to ask if they do them. My therapist keeps minimal notes because of that remote but real possibility. I have him read them back to me now and again, and they're dull as dishwater.
I let him read what I write but I seldom if ever let him keep it.
I'd probably be buried by what I write at Babble, though. :)
Welcome.
Posted by Daisym on February 26, 2005, at 12:44:18
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandon(*poss slight trigger*) » cursed_one, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2005, at 0:18:52
hmmm -- I let my therapist keep the journal pages I bring in. Maybe I shouldn't?
We've talked about insurance companies and notes and he thinks they are completely untrustworthy. Which is why he likes "adjustment disorder" -- it doesn't tell anyone anything.
I hate having yet another thing to worry about. But I live such a boring life, I doubt this will be a problem.
Therapy should NOT be this complicated. But then again, neither should getting medical help.
Posted by cursed_one on February 26, 2005, at 16:27:23
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandon(*poss slight trigger*) » Dinah, posted by Daisym on February 26, 2005, at 12:44:18
i wouldn't worry about it too much. But it is something to consider. For instance if you tell a therapist that your impulse when you are angry is to drive like a maniac - and he write this down - then you happen to get into a car wreck and kill someone.... hmmmmmm.... i would hope those records wouldn't surface. The lawyer would have a field day with it. You have no idea how manipulative a lawyer can be with such little information and a jury doesn't hear the whole story. All they would see is a poor dead "victim" and you the crazed nut - in therapy - confessing your murderous impulses. It doesn't matter that 99.9% of the world has these thoughts - just that YOU voiced them to someone who had authority ot write them down and make them an actual legal document!! Real ironic isn't it. Maybe we are all better off going to priests - they aren't allowed to breath a word, or is that another fairy tail i believe in????
Posted by Daisym on February 26, 2005, at 16:42:01
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandon(*poss slight trigger*) » Daisym, posted by cursed_one on February 26, 2005, at 16:27:23
I guess I've decided that I can't spend time worrying too much about the paperwork parts. If I don't use therapy the way I need too, I won't be here to care about the paperwork at all.
Just putting things in perspective.
I must say, I'm sorry you had such an awful experience. You sound very wounded by it all. I hope life throws you some soft balls for awhile.
This is the end of the thread.
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