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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
I'm not sure where this post belongs any more. But since it originates with therapy I'll post it here.
I brought my therapist the belt buckle from the belt that belonged to Daddy and that Mother used to threaten me with, and occasionally hit me with. It was always such a menacing looking belt to me. It had a western buckle with a bird on it (my therapist says it is a thunder bird, which was curiously apropos given what I had told him before he let me know that). I would go in the closet and look at it sometimes, and even hanging from the belt hangar it seemed powerful and dangerous.
As I was talking about Daddy in those days, and the belt, it became obvious that I was using the same terms. My Daddy was a brooding intense sort of man. The Dylan Thomas/Montgomery Clift sort of man. He seemed to carry a thundercloud over his head, and although he never hurt me in any way, I was more afraid of him than mother, who did (although not any more than was average in that time period). It wasn't until my brother defied him that I realized you could do that without being struck dead by a bolt of red lightning from that ominous thundercloud.
I figured that Daddy drank a lot not only because of his job and my mother, but to tame that cloud. It worked somewhat. He was much more mellow when he drank before he had to stop for health reasons.
My therapist was trying to help me see what a large role my father's drinking played in my life. Daddy told his doctor that he probably drank five drinks a night on average, and that agrees with my recollection. My therapist was trying to get me to remember how much different Daddy was when I saw him and he wasn't drinking. I told him there was no such time. He came home and started drinking. He drank all weekend. If we went somewhere in the car, he'd bring his little cooler full of beer in the car with us. I could probably count on one hand the times he was actually drunk, usually after parties, but he drank all the time.
And his friends and relatives drank, and most of them got drunk. They were unpleasant to be around when they drank, except for one friend who I liked a whole lot drunk or sober. I have a fair number of unpleasant memories of his friends and relatives, none of who I liked, and none of whom liked me. Probably because I was pretty clearly disdainful.
None of the wives drank much, if at all. My mother didn't at all. And Daddy didn't get drunk. Nevertheless, Mother always drove. There was never any irresponsibility involved.
So I have trouble thinking of myself as the child of an alchoholic. Or thinking of myself as being affected by my father's alchohol consumption at all. Except that it killed him in the end, even though he hadn't had anything to drink for fifteen or so years. My therapist thinks that five drinks a night is a LOT of alchohol, and that it's hard to believe it didn't have an effect on me.
I think of alchoholics as being like Daddy's brothers or friends, not like Daddy.
Isn't it possible that you can have a father who drank a fairly large amount, without having any ill effects from it?
Posted by bent on February 10, 2005, at 20:04:05
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
This reminds me of myself. I don’t know what my dad is like without beer really. He drank beer everyday but I only saw my dad drunk once in my life. He drank beer everyday but until I was in my late teens I couldn’t fathom that he was an alcoholic. In my eyes my dad just 'liked' beer. My first therapist, when I was in high school, said he was an alcoholic. And he is. And I am a child of an alcoholic father. As of yesterday my dad had a beer in hand. But anyway, that was my dad to me. Beer and my dad just went together naturally. My family didn’t go anywhere without his beer packed in a little cooler also. I never thought it affected me until I grew up and was able to step out of the vicious circle of dysfunction that is my family. A lot of my problems stemmed from my mom's issues too. I do think it’s possible to not be affected by a parent that drinks a lot. My dad was ok. Not really active or ever overly happy for me but that was the dad I knew. I didn’t have anything to compare it to. Even with all my dad’s drinking I don’t think I am overly effected by it. What I was affected by was the dysfunctions created in my family. I guess this doesn’t really help you. Sorry to go on about myself but I am in a similar situation and I have often wondering the same thing.
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 20:11:09
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by bent on February 10, 2005, at 20:04:05
No, don't apologize. That's exactly what I was thinking. Certainly my family had its share of problems, but my father's drinking seems to be the least of it. I couldn't and don't understand my therapist's attitude towards it. If Daddy were drunk, I could see how that could make for a lot of problems, but since he wasn't I don't see what the big deal was. Other than I wish he hadn't, and hadn't gotten cirrhosis and pancreatitis and died.
Posted by jujube on February 10, 2005, at 20:25:07
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
I'll just put this out there, and I apologize in advance if what I say is out of line.
Perhaps your dad's drinking did have an effect on you, but because you loved your dad so much, it is hard to admit or accept that. You say that your dad was not abusive or violent when he was drinking, but rather his drinking "mellowed" him. So, from a young age, you knew that without alcohol your dad was a different person -perhaps, a much more volatile and moody(?).
I'll just put this out there as well (with no intention to offend). Is is possible that your dad was more demonstrative and loving when he was drinking and that made his drinking ok in the eyes of a child and, later, as an adult?
I don't know, but I think that on some level a parent's drinking would have some effect on a child and the relationship that child has with the parent, and that could well be carried into adulthood.
Posted by 64bowtie on February 10, 2005, at 23:32:30
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
> Isn't it possible that you can have a father who drank a fairly large amount, without having any ill effects from it? >
(((Sweetie))), I know better than to debate the degree of alcohol-ism in a forum like this, and with someone the likes of you, who I care for so muchly...
That said, alcoholic behavior belies the alcoholic. Czek it out with (what do call him? what is your pet name for your T?), anyway, czek it out. There are as many degrees of alcoholism as there are alcoholics.... as many degrees of soberness as there are sober folks.... and don't forget drunks, etc, etc, etc!
In order to qualify to be welcome at the 75 or so Alanon meetings I went to, over the last 19 years, I used my Mom's family affliction (Irish-Catholic), only I excused her as a 'dry drunk'. She had her 6oz of Port wine each night, instead of nighty-night pills, I guess. I swear her liver and pancreatic cancer attack was exascerbated by that quiet little nip each night. Her liver had never completely recovered from severe hepatitas and jaundice from 40 years before.
(am I rambling yet???????)
Happy Valentines day to you and y'alls...
Rod
PS: I miss your face
Posted by All Done on February 10, 2005, at 23:35:12
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
Dinah,
Wow. You've come so very close to describing my dad and my childhood. The main difference is that my dad was typically a quiet, reserved man. The drinking made him a little more talkative and friendly. I never knew him to be without a drink, though. Ever.
I wish I could offer you all kinds of answers. I had this conversation with one of my sisters a few months ago when I was considering going to an adult children of alcoholics meeting. My sister is of the belief that our dad's drinking had *no* effect on us because he wasn't a mean drunk. I can't really say I agree with that, but like you, I question whether it had an ill effect on us.
It definitely wasn't all bad. I mean, we had our best one on one talks when he was pretty drunk because those were the occassions when he got chatty. But I always wondered how much he remembered the next day. The fact of the matter is, though, most of his drinking time was spent in his recliner, watching tv, reading, and not talking to anyone including me. Probably not the optimal situation for a little girl who loves her daddy, but I don't know that it was that uncommon when I was growing up. Dads just didn't seem to get as involved as they do now.
For me, the hardest part of my his drinking was that my mom always asked me to tell my dad he needed to stop drinking because, "he'll listen to you. He'll stop for you." Well, he never did.
Every once in a while, I get very subtle reminders from my T that my dad was an alcoholic and was not "available" to me. He wants me to look at the reality of things, but now that my dad is gone, it's so hard not to idealize him.
Take care, Dinah. I wish I could offer you more than just my story.
Laurie
Posted by tryingtobewise on February 11, 2005, at 0:28:02
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
Hi Dinah...
I can totally relate to this, but with a twist to the story at the end.
My father drank a lot. I certainly never thought of him as an alcoholic and in fact we all liked him better, and were much more relaxed around him when he was drinking. He was never a sloppy drunk, just calmer and easier to be with. When sober, he was intense & had a bad temper.
Then my younger sis developed a problem with drugs. She was 16 when she went to her first rehab. As part of the process a parent had to go through adult rehab. So my dad went, decided he was an alcoholic, gave up drinking & became a devoted member of AA.
It was rough on all of us when he QUIT drinking. AA did seem to help him in a lot of ways though. But the point of this whole story is that...
The 2 T's I've had in my life have jumped all over the fact that I am an "Adult Child of An Alcoholic". They immediately seem to think this is very important. I do not think it is at all. There were some difficult parts of growing up, but whether or not he truely was an alcoholic was not one of them. While I can't take words back, if I ever end up with a new T (I currently love mine so this is very hypothetical), I don't even know if it is something I'd bother mentioning.
Kim
Posted by daisym on February 11, 2005, at 0:39:49
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
Dinah,
Please don't be offended by this, but could I ask that we all mark stuff "trigger" if it might be reminiscent of beatings, not just sex or suicide? I tried to respond to your post but I can't get past the belt stuff...
My dad kept a cowboy whip. I use to sneak into the closet and stare at it too. Very bad memories associated with it.
I'll try again later.
sorry
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 7:43:03
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by daisym on February 11, 2005, at 0:39:49
It really didn't even occur to me, as my experience seemed nothing out of the ordinary.
We grew up in interesting times for parental expectations (and our parents probably even more so). I'm glad my son is growing up now.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 7:43:35
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 7:50:40
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by jujube on February 10, 2005, at 20:25:07
I only recognized he was more mellow drinking in comparison to after he stopped for health reasons. I suppose there were times when he hadn't had a drink when I was little, but I'm not sure I associated them with his not drinking. I really don't remember what he was like without a drink when I was little.
I am in a horrible mood in the mornings, and probably never bothered to look at his mood. And right after work, you were better advised to let Daddy relax first. But that came through from every TV show and every friend as being perfectly normal, and not necessarily associated with alchohol. In fact, it's probably true of me too, and I don't drink.
Those were probably the only times I ever saw him without some bourbon or a beer.No need to apologize, and it is certainly something to consider. I'm just not sure I have anything to compare his drinking and non-drinking selves in an age consistent sort of way.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 7:59:11
In reply to » (((Dinah))) » Ever hear of a 'dry drunk'?, posted by 64bowtie on February 10, 2005, at 23:32:30
Has my face been missing?
My father wasn't Irish, but his family was riddled with alchoholism, on one or both sides, I'm not really clear on that. In fact, it's something that's a problem with some of my very favorite cousins. Cirrhosis of the liver was one of the more common causes of death, and no one lived long at all. I think my father set a family record for longevity.
I've taken my family history seriously enough to never test it by drinking more than a drink here or there my entire life. And I'm warning my son early. But to some extent, I can see the same addictive tendencies in myself - despite my earnest efforts to avoid opportunity.
I'll have to check out the concept of a dry drunk - for *me*.
I wonder if Daddy just had a really high natural tolerance for alchohol, or if he developed one. As I said, he surrounded himself with people who drank as regularly as he did, and they were all noticeably drunk. Now that probably did have an effect on me. If it weren't for my friends' fathers and TV it wouldn't have occurred to me that men could refrain from drinking.
Posted by Aphrodite on February 11, 2005, at 11:33:01
In reply to A parent who drank a lot, posted by Dinah on February 10, 2005, at 19:33:11
Your post resonated with me. My father was an alcoholic, but I didn't feel terribly affected by it the way so many others have. I had one miserable session with the first T I tried, and she had me pegged as the "child-of-an-alcholic" but all things considered, my father's drinking seemed to be the least of my problems.
He thought nothing of physical punishment, but my mother, who did not drink, was much, much worse in that department. I just knew to avoid Dad when his eyes were red.
But I know that for many people, alcohol preceded abusive behavior. Dad just zoned out in front of the TV.
Posted by Tabitha on February 11, 2005, at 13:39:52
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on February 11, 2005, at 11:33:01
This thread is bringing up anger in me. My dad was alcoholic, but I've always told myself it didn't affect me since he did his drinking outside the home. It's not like I ever saw him drunk (well once, but that's all I remember). So it's like I've had this belief, it's OK for a parent to be alcholic, just so long as they don't drink at home. I'm pretty judgemental about parents drinking at home-- probably picked up from my mom, whose dad drank at home and behaved inappropriately with her.
Then I hear two people saying (this is what I'm hearing, I may not have your message exactly right) that it's OK for a parent to be alcholic, and drink at home, just so long as they don't behave too "drunkenly". I'm all mad at your dads, and at you and your moms for picking up the slack and making excuses. But isn't it funny that I'm not mad at my dad and my mom and myself? Because my dad didn't seem "as bad"?
Somehow I think we'd all be better off just saying it's not OK for a parent to be alcholic, and looking at what it really cost us. I mean, my dad wasn't home because he was out drinking in bars every night. It made my mom miserable, and that sure as heck affected me. He started an affair with one of his drinking buddies, and that sure as heck affected me.
Now I imagine you're thinking, thank goodness my dad drank at home. But how did it really feel being home with that dad who was drunk and zoned out in front of the TV, or that dad who filled the home with his boorish drinking buddies and had to be chauffered everywhere because he was too drunk to drive? Yuck! Let's stop letting the alcoholic parent off the hook, just because they weren't the world's worst alcoholic parent.
Posted by Aphrodite on February 11, 2005, at 15:22:00
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot, posted by Tabitha on February 11, 2005, at 13:39:52
Tabitha, I may not have worded my post correctly. I did not and do not excuse my father's drinking. It affected him and those around him negatively. What I was trying to say was that when I was young, I was dealing with a mentally ill and alternately abusive/neglectful mother who was menacing and being sexually abused by a teacher and another family member. So, since drinking zoned my Dad out, he was not a frightening spectre to me as the others were. It made him less volatile -- he was physically punishing when he was sober. Of course, because he drank so much, he was not in a place to help with all my other problems and so you're right, it was certainly a problem. I guess I was just saying on the list of childhood terrors, alcoholism wasn't at the top. Hope this clears things up some, and I am sorry you were angered.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 16:47:26
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by All Done on February 10, 2005, at 23:35:12
Your story is a pretty big thing to offer. :)
My father was pretty unavailable when I was very young. I told my therapist that I think of him as being "over there" (the bar and kitchen), while Mother and I were "back here". But that's a very very old memory.
I don't think it had anything at all to do with his drinking. Daddy definitely loved his little girl, but he didn't have much to say to very little kids. He never did all his life. Wasn't quite sure what to do with them. Once I got old enough to be interesting, in the words of Indiana Jones' father, we used to talk and talk if I came and sat with him at the bar as he drank.
I'm so glad my mother never laid that sort of burden on me. That would have been grossly unfair.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 16:52:18
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot, posted by tryingtobewise on February 11, 2005, at 0:28:02
My therapist does a fair amount of work in substance abuse, I think, and he definitely seems to put more emphasis on it than I feel is warranted.
I see pictures of Daddy as a boy and a young man. He looked like a sensitive and gentle boy who was probably overwhelmed by a headstrong wife, a demanding job, and recurrent bouts of depression. Especially if I remember the tales of my father as a little boy, I can imagine how distressing his mood disorder must have been to him. Alchohol as a way of self medicating is tried and true, even if we now know it's counterproductive.
Thank you for sharing your story. There seem to be a lot of people like us here. Which may be slightly indicative of the fact that it *did* have more of an effect than we might have thought.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 16:56:47
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on February 11, 2005, at 11:33:01
I'm getting more astonished at my father's alchohol tolerance. The five drinks a night didn't even cause him to be zoned out. He'd sit at the bar and brood, or continue to work. When I got older, I'd go and talk to him. He seemed just fine.
If I hadn't just recently heard myself his own estimate of five drinks on a weeknight, and if it didn't tally with what I remembered, I'd be starting to doubt myself.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 19:34:01
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot » tryingtobewise, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 16:52:18
Whatever my father's sweet vulnerable lips as a boy might say, and however much the family lore has him as the invalid boy picked on by the neighborhood toughs, my father was not the innocent sensitive soul I just made him out to be.
He could be insensitive enough to be comical. And while he chose never to be physically abusive, he could be verbally abusive to people he didn't respect. I was lucky that I only got a touch of it at the very end of his life and none for most of my life. He said things to my mother and brother that made me cry for as long as I can remember. With or without booze.
But I loved him anyway. And he was a man of integrity and good sense. He had many fine and useful qualities.
But he wasn't the idealized tortured soul I just made him out to be.
Blechhhh.
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 19:52:06
In reply to Re: A parent who drank a lot, posted by Tabitha on February 11, 2005, at 13:39:52
I think I'd be right with you if my father had been drunk, as opposed to drinking. My exposure to my father's friends left me with a permanent distaste for inebriation. In fact, not only have I never been drunk, but I put my poor husband off the usual college hijinks with my nose wrinkled description of "pale, flaccid, and sweaty". Poor guy never could have a good time getting blasted with that description hovering over him.
So my unspoken belief was probably that it was ok to drink a lot as long as you never got drunk. In fact, I don't ever recall any of us trying to get him to stop drinking. We all campaigned to get him to stop smoking, but not to stop drinking. And Daddy hated getting drunk. The few times he did, at parties, he'd come home and rock in the rocking chair all night.
I have to admit that I think it was wrong of him to have quite so many drunk friends around, so many that it seemed like all men drank to excess. And they'd needle me too, because I showed what I thought about them. And he'd let them. And to make matters worse, he had a relative who got drunk daily live with us for some time. I mostly forget that, although when I remember it I recall how very unpleasant it was for so many reasons, and how angry I was with him for that.
My father was wrong for doing those things. I might excuse the constant elevated blood alchohol level, but I don't excuse bad behavior.
(I'm not trying to be offensive here, by the way. I take full responsibility for my feelings about inebriation. They're my feelings, a result of my own history. They have nothing to do with alchoholics really.)
Posted by jujube on February 11, 2005, at 23:54:00
In reply to Now I'm being nauseatingly idealizing, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 19:34:01
Neither of my parents were drinkers, and I don't even remember seeing either of them drink in front of my brothers and I more than a couple of times (and, even then, they did not get drunk). Nevertheless, I still stuggle, at times, with trying to reconcile my feelings for both of my parents. In all honesty, I would have to say that neither were particularly good parents, and looking back (which I rarely do), they really didn't try too hard to be. My dad had a violent temper and was prone to rages (although he wasn't physically abusive with me), and made it clear on many occasions that he didn't want to be with us and couldn't "stand us anymore" (he stayed nonetheless). So, the verbal and emotional abuse was trying at times. My mom was really emotionally absent and bascially shut down in an attempt to self-preserve. Sometimes she shut down so much that at 8 or 9, I was teaching myself how to do the laundry so that I would have clean clothes for school and clean towels for baths. There were no hugs, no "I love you"s and little, if any, praise. Nevertheless, I love my parents, but as human beings that I have come to know and accept in spite of their faults and shortcomings. I didn't really have a relationship with my dad until I was in my really early 20s when my parents finally split up. Now I see my dad as more of a friend than a father - someone who I like spending time with (we go out for dinner, to concerts, skiing, etc.). He has changed so much. He still has a temper (he's very much a type "A"), but he has learned to control it, so it is no longer scary or embarrassing being around him.
I don't idealize my dad because, as disrespectful as this may sound, I don't think, as a father, he deserves it. But, I like the person he has become, and I'm glad that I was willing, in my own mind, to "give him a second chance" and be friends with him.
Well, I have gone off on a irrelevant tangent, but it felt good to unload.
Posted by Daisym on February 12, 2005, at 11:08:40
In reply to I am sorry, Daisy :( » daisym, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2005, at 7:43:03
No worries. Actually between your post and the book I just finished, I had a lot to talk to my therapist about yesterday. He said obviously something shifted to create an urgency to talk and talking (and talking and talking)helped the anxiety go down.
I'm just continually surprised at my own feelings these days. I feel like my skin got peeled off and I'm just a quivering mess of emotions. (lovely image, sorry...)
This is the end of the thread.
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