![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by floatingbridge on May 5, 2010, at 12:47:42
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by CaffeinePoet on May 5, 2010, at 11:18:19
Hey CP,
Sorry to hear your not feeling so well yourself. Best to you on your meds and recovery.
fb
Posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:14:15
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by CaffeinePoet on May 5, 2010, at 11:18:19
> Sorry you're depressed.
Thanks - I am in the company of a lot of intelligent, caring people here. I'm sorry we are all depressed. It DOES help to know that I am not alone - that there are others who know how painful all this business is. Unless one has felt the despair, and gone through the struggle, they can't really understand. I know you, may I call you my new friends?, understand what I am going through.
> I've been off since November. I calculated, it was off for 22 weeks. 13 weeks were great. 9 weeks were an increase in obsessive anxiety, hypochondira, memory problems, etc. building to a crescendo. After hemming and hawing over the issue I started on a med again yesterday.
I started weaning down on my meds in August and have been completely med free since the end of January. Looking back, my meds probably had quit working last summer. I completely lost all motivation - I kept going to work but on my days off I would stay in bed all day. Not sleeping, just like I was "turned off" - my depression is an absence of feelings. Except for guilt. I feel guilty for being so worthless. Very typical depressive mood. I quit my job in March. Now the struggle is to not stay in bed EVERY day. I am looking for another job - can't afford not to. The latest depressive symptom has been crying. I cry at the drop of a hat...The wierd thing is, I did go to the neurofeedback treatment yesterday. And immediately after I didn't feel like crying. And I don't feel too much like crying now, although if I start thinking about what I'm putting my husband through I could work up to it... ;-D Anyway, part of me thinks the neurofeedback is quakery. Another part of me wants to believe in it. I will post a message on the alternative therapy board about the whole thing for those who are interested.
> Here's what I think; if it's lasted for longer than a month, seek medical treatment. You can STILL pursue biofeedback and work to find a combo that is truly effective for you. Also deal with medical issues. AND take a pill. Some people do deal without medication, but why suffer?
The internist who supervised my withdrawal said that to take is pill is easy, and to deal with the depression in other ways is a lot of work. Pretty funny huh? Asking someone severely depressed to work on themselves? WTF? I know I would feel better if I went for a walk, but that's pretty hard to accomplish if I can barely make it out of bed. But, today seems to be a good day. I not only made it out of bed, I've taken a shower, brushed my teeth, gotten dressed, and MADE the bed. I even did a load of laundry. Little accomplishments - so insignificant to most, such a big deal for me.I am going to give it one more month - during this month I will do the neurofeedback, take the supplements, and try not to think any stinky thoughts that bring me down. If I am still down in the pit in 4 weeks, I will have to find a new dr. and get back on meds. And I will keep you updated.
And thanks again to all for the info, feedback, links, and support!
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:18:58
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
> > So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
>
> The probability that you describe here is given as the rate per person, not the rate per dose. The likelihood that someone will incur a behavioral side effect might actually decrease with progressive doses.
>
> Perhaps you can find some statistics to work with in order to establish the rate of suicide due to antidepressant use versus that of untreated depression. It might help people to make decisions.
>
> For what it's worth, a recent study reported that the risk of suicide is the same among the various antidepressants. I can't offer the actual article, but it can be found in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,
You wrote,[...the probability that you decribe here is given as...].
I used the two examples of the rolling of dice and the revolver to show two types of thinking in relation to probability. In the rolling of dice, each roll is not affected by the previous roll. In the revolver, unless we spin the revolver each time, which I did not specify, then that is a different way to look at probability from the rolling of dice.
But now let us look at another way of thinking about probability. suppose we have 1000 balls in a tank and there is one green ball. Let us suppose that we pick one ball out of the tank and want it to be the green ball. The probablilty is one out of 1000 to pick the green ball (on the first pick). Now if we do not replace the ball and pick again, that is different from replacing the ball and picking again.
Now in relation to taking a drug, we ask if taking a pill each time has the same probability of inducing a mind-altering state to the person so that they want to kill themselves, or is the taking of continued pills accumlative in making the probability greater (or less) for that state to happen to the person.
Well, if the drug is notated as in the clas of drugs that could induce the person to kill themselves, then that is different from the person taking a drug that is not classified as such. Here we are interested in mind-altering drugs and the research shows that they have the potential to induce a state of mind that is altered so that the ones taking the drug could want to kill themselves. Now I would think that if the drug has that potential, then it can do what it can do. In reading the reports of those that killed others while on those type of drugs, there are those that had a dreamlike state of mind and they did not have recall of them killing others. Some of those also killed themselves and we do not know if all of those in that catagory knew that they were taking their own life. In the trial records of some mass murders, who were on antidepressants, some said that they did not know that they were killing others and that the drug caused them to kill the other people.
There are records of people admitted in hospitals for suicide attempts, but there could be a large number of people that tried and failed and were not admitted.
But getting back to the issue here, if one wants to think in terms of probability as to if or if not taking the drug will induce a mind-altered state to have them want to kill themselves, or others, or to think that if they are suicidal before they take the drug that they will have less of that type of thinking by taking the drug, or some other reasoning, then they have the opportunity from what they understand about probability as to if taking the drug is trying to get a particular ball out of a tank by either replacing the ball on each pick or not, to take the risk or not, thus determing for themselves if the benefit outweighs the risk or if it is possible that taking the drug will lessen the chances.
Lou
Posted by bulldog2 on May 5, 2010, at 15:21:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
> > So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
>
> The probability that you describe here is given as the rate per person, not the rate per dose. The likelihood that someone will incur a behavioral side effect might actually decrease with progressive doses.
>
> Perhaps you can find some statistics to work with in order to establish the rate of suicide due to antidepressant use versus that of untreated depression. It might help people to make decisions.
>
> For what it's worth, a recent study reported that the risk of suicide is the same among the various antidepressants. I can't offer the actual article, but it can be found in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
>
>
> - Scott
>Hi Scott
You know there is an obvious flaw in ad's make people committ suicide argument. I'm depressed and someone tells me to read the bible because that will show me the way and lift my depression. I start reading the bible and committ suicide three weeks later. Conclusion:Bible reading makes people committ suicide. So someone is on an ad and committs suicide. There are so many variables in one's life you just can't make these conclusions.
Have they run any double blind studies where both groups were analyzed to have the exact same illness. In other words the two groups were virtual clones of each other.
The depressed person was taking an ad when he/she committed suicide. Prove that the ad was the reason. More people in the ad group committed suicide than the non-ad group.That's the entire argument that ads caused these suicides. Again were both the ad group and non ad group identical for genetics and environment.I guess someone with an agenda could really rig this test. I would like someone to analyze some of these suicides to link the suicides to the ads. The whole argument is more people in the ad group committed suicide than the non ad group. Conclusion ads cause suicide. I think at best you have to take the result and analyze it further to establish a firm connection other than He/she took an ad and therefore the ad caused the suicide.
This is bogus science and the conclusion is full of holes.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:58:57
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by bulldog2 on May 5, 2010, at 15:21:34
Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I ask that you click on this link and look at the infomation presented by the doctor.
Lou
You can see this link by:
A. bring up google
B. Type in;
Youtube, Can Antidepressants Cause Violence?
if you get more than one, this one is produced by {Psychetruth}
Posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2010, at 20:59:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
Scott this the article? Phillipa
From Medscape Medical News
Antidepressant Use Carries Similar Suicidal Risks Across Drug Type, Class
Study in Adults Mirrors Recent Findings in Adolescents
Megan Brooks
May 4, 2010 In adults initiating antidepressant therapy, there appears to be no clinically relevant variation in risk for suicidal acts by individual type or class of antidepressant medication, according to a report in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
The finding, from Sebastian Schneeweiss, MD, ScD, of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, and colleagues, mirrors findings from a study in children and adolescents published this month in Pediatrics by the same researchers.
In October 2004, the US Food and Drug Administration issued an advisory regarding a potentially increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors among children and adolescents taking antidepressants. A subsequent meta-analysis of trials in adults found no overall increase in risk, but data on individual agents were lacking.
Therefore, Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues analyzed healthcare utilization data from all 287,543 British Columbia residents 18 years and older who started taking an antidepressant between January 1, 1997, and December 31, 2005.
The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) were the most common class of medication prescribed, accounting for 65.5% of antidepressant use. Paroxetine and citalopram, the most commonly prescribed agent, accounted for 39.7% and 24.2% of overall SSRI use, respectively.
During the first 12 months of treatment, the researchers identified 751 attempted and 104 completed suicides an event rate of 6.06 suicidal acts per 1000 person-years (95% confidence interval [CI], 5.65 6.48). Most of the events occurred in the first 6 months after initiation.
After extensive propensity score adjustment, the researchers failed to see any significant differences in the risk for suicide and suicide attempt among individual antidepressants or classes of antidepressants SSRIs, serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors, tricyclic agents, or other newer and atypical agents.
Compared with the initiation of fluoxetine hydrochloride treatment, initiation of citalopram hydrobromide treatment yielded a hazard ratio (HR) of 1.00 (95% CI, 0.63 1.57), fluvoxamine maleate (HR, 0.98; 95% CI, 0.63 1.51), paroxetine hydrochloride (HR, 1.02; 95% CI, 0.77 1.35), and sertraline hydrochloride (HR, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.53 1.05).
Similar findings emerged in analyses restricted to a treatment-naive subgroup of patients with no antidepressant use in the prior 3 years (n = 199,594; 69.4%).
A major strength of the study, Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues note, is its large and stable population, which allowed them to look at a variety of medications and at subgroups. However, the inability to fully adjust for mental health conditions is 1 limitation of the study.
"Our finding of equal event rates across antidepressant agents supports the US Food and Drug Administration's decision to treat all antidepressants alike in their advisory," Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues conclude in their report.
"Treatment decisions should be based on efficacy, and clinicians should be vigilant in monitoring after initiating therapy with any antidepressant agent," they add.
The study authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2010;67:497-506.
Posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » SLS, posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2010, at 20:59:43
Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better? This makes sense in a folklore kind of way since the deeply depressed are often too immobilized to act on their suicidal ideation. One might say that in some cases the AD enables a person to commit suicide.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
> Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better? This makes sense in a folklore kind of way since the deeply depressed are often too immobilized to act on their suicidal ideation. One might say that in some cases the AD enables a person to commit suicide.
chujoe,
You wrote,[...the AD enables the person to...].
There are many ways to consider what happens when a forighn substance is being put into the brain.
Here is a link to a video that I would like for others to see so that we could include any aspects in it for this discussion.
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3Sg6qvgTE
Posted by floatingbridge on May 5, 2010, at 21:38:58
In reply to Thanks to all of you!!!, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:14:15
Nice plan. And babble will be here if you ever need it. And maybe you won't.
Best to you!
Posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 22:07:50
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 21:12:10
> Isn't it pretty well established that there is a psychological (as opposed to strictly biological) propensity for suicide to occur once a depressed person has begun to feel better?
I believe this to be true. However, I am also convinced that some people can be made to feel worse by an antidepressant drug such that they become suicidal. Perhaps it will be ascertained in the future just what are the rates of occurrences of these two phenomena. It is important for doctors and patients to be aware of both scenarios and to monitor closely for their emergences early in treatment. I have yet to have a doctor tell me that there is a possibility that I will feel worse and to notify him should this occur upon initiating treatment with an antidepressant.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:30:13
In reply to Lou's reply-crsrowds » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 7:59:05
Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
Posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:40:41
In reply to Lou's request-, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:58:57
Lou you present one link to one doctor expressing one opinion. Dude, come on brotha! This means zilch, nada, nothing, zero, squat. If you are the scientist you say you are, then back up your arguments with real science please.
Posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 6:10:42
In reply to Lou's reply- » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
Lou, we put "foreign substances" into our brains every time we eat a candy bar or take a vitamin. We change our brain chemistry by meditating or exercising, etc. Human beings have been experimenting with this stuff for thousands of years. I'm not saying that some stuff isn't bad for you, it's just that I don't understand your particular focus on psych meds. Have you ever taken them? (Sorry if you've answered this before -- just direct me to the thread.)
I'll grant you that psych meds are probably over prescribed in the US and that some people would do better with psychotherapy or CBT or biofeedback, etc. But I'd argue just as strongly that there are times when psych meds are absolutely appropriate and beneficial. I speak here from my own experience and the experience of close friends who might not have made it back from madness without some of those drugs.
Maybe if we lived in Eden we wouldn't need the drugs -- we'd have lots of time to lie around and recover our balance, we'd live in loving extended families, the animals would comfort us, and we'd drink fresh water from the stream. But we don't live in Eden; we live in a society in which we're expected to get up and go to work or school every day and to "be productive." So we drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, have a martini, etc. We medicate ourselves in order to be the selves we are expected to be and which we expect ourselves to be. A hundred years ago, when all this became too much -- if we were lucky enough to be middle or upper class -- we'd have a "nervous breakdown" and retire to a dimly lit room at home or in an asylum until we felt able to face the world again. (If you were working class, or poor, a hundred years ago, you just drank more, smoked more, self-medicated more & since you couldn't afford the quiet room, you solved the problem eventually by dying, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.)
Sorry. I didn't intend to write a treatise on the history of madness. I just think that the kind of purity you apparently seek (I may misunderstand) is not obtainable and that we are left to do the best we can. I think it's useful to be aware of problems with various things we put in our bodies -- I stopped smoking 25 years ago, for instance, because there was clear evidence that the risks outweighed the benefits. And I'd stop taking a psych drug if it could be shown that the risks outweighed the benefits. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of people who post here, consciously or unconsciously, make a risk-benefit analysis every day -- Psychobabble is an information tool that helps people make that analysis. After which, many of us make the informed decision to take a particular drug or combination of drugs.
Posted by polarbear206 on May 6, 2010, at 10:45:11
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 6:10:42
> Lou, we put "foreign substances" into our brains every time we eat a candy bar or take a vitamin. We change our brain chemistry by meditating or exercising, etc. Human beings have been experimenting with this stuff for thousands of years. I'm not saying that some stuff isn't bad for you, it's just that I don't understand your particular focus on psych meds. Have you ever taken them? (Sorry if you've answered this before -- just direct me to the thread.)
>
> I'll grant you that psych meds are probably over prescribed in the US and that some people would do better with psychotherapy or CBT or biofeedback, etc. But I'd argue just as strongly that there are times when psych meds are absolutely appropriate and beneficial. I speak here from my own experience and the experience of close friends who might not have made it back from madness without some of those drugs.
>
> Maybe if we lived in Eden we wouldn't need the drugs -- we'd have lots of time to lie around and recover our balance, we'd live in loving extended families, the animals would comfort us, and we'd drink fresh water from the stream. But we don't live in Eden; we live in a society in which we're expected to get up and go to work or school every day and to "be productive." So we drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, have a martini, etc. We medicate ourselves in order to be the selves we are expected to be and which we expect ourselves to be. A hundred years ago, when all this became too much -- if we were lucky enough to be middle or upper class -- we'd have a "nervous breakdown" and retire to a dimly lit room at home or in an asylum until we felt able to face the world again. (If you were working class, or poor, a hundred years ago, you just drank more, smoked more, self-medicated more & since you couldn't afford the quiet room, you solved the problem eventually by dying, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.)
>
> Sorry. I didn't intend to write a treatise on the history of madness. I just think that the kind of purity you apparently seek (I may misunderstand) is not obtainable and that we are left to do the best we can. I think it's useful to be aware of problems with various things we put in our bodies -- I stopped smoking 25 years ago, for instance, because there was clear evidence that the risks outweighed the benefits. And I'd stop taking a psych drug if it could be shown that the risks outweighed the benefits. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of people who post here, consciously or unconsciously, make a risk-benefit analysis every day -- Psychobabble is an information tool that helps people make that analysis. After which, many of us make the informed decision to take a particular drug or combination of drugs.
Very good points!!
Posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 13:15:55
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by polarbear206 on May 6, 2010, at 10:45:11
I have enjoyed the discourse my original post prompted. The support is wonderful and the discussions are thought-provoking and insightful.
To begin using meds or not - to continue them or not - there is never a simple answer. As a teenager in the late sixties and early seventies I was a regular marijuana user. I don't recall being depressed, although looking back I suffered with ADD (not ADHD - I had the dreamy, calm attention deficit). I continued to use marijuana several times a day until my early 30s - was able to raise a child (quite successfully I can brag), maintain a household (although I wasn't the cleanest house on the block), and go to work as an office manager and bookkeeper. I usually held a job for several years before I got bored and went on to something else. I also did a lot of volunteer work for various agencies as well as my church and my daughter's school. Throughout all these years I always felt tired and "lazy" - I took a lot of naps on the weekend. When I would mention this to my GP, he would test my thyroid and my iron level and assure me nothing was wrong. One night I was complaining to a dr friend who said, "you have depression" What? I don't feel sad. He explained that depression is a physical thing and not in my head. Of course, he didn't know about the pot smoking...
I pretty much poo-pooed that information, but then I went through a very sad and disturbing incident - a dear friend's grown daughter was dying of leukemia. I went to visit and ended up staying and helping care for the patient till she died. She passed away at home, there was a hospice nurse once a day, my friend was occupied with her grandchildren (only 2 & 3 yrs old), so I was the one providing ALL the care. It was a horrific scene at the end - the poor girl screamed in agony and I pumped so much morphine into her port-a-cath that I couldn't believe she didn't die.
Needless to say, after that I was REALLY depressed. This young woman - my friend's daughter with two toddlers - struck down so brutally at only 23 years old. So I saw my first psychiatrist. I took one of those "funny" personality tests - I think it was the MMPI. Then this dr said I needed to stop smoking pot, and we could treat the depression. I was referred to a drug counselor and went through about 6 weeks of outpatient treatment to get off pot. At that point the P-doc started me on trazodone. Looking back, I wonder why he didn't just wait and see what would happen if I stayed clean - without any medication. Or why he didn't recommend regular psychotherapy. I wonder now if I really had Major Depression, or understandable sadness over what had just happened.
Well, that was my beginning with ADs. I saw that first doctor regularly every 3 months for a "medication check". I have to say that the depression lifted - whether it was the meds or just time, who knows. But good ole Dr #1 NEVER suggested that I stop taking the meds. In fact whenever I mentioned that I wasn't feeling quite well, he upped the dose. When he retired I picked Dr #2 from the insurance list and he happily kept my rX refilled without much discussion - and if I mentioned that I felt bad, again he upped the dose. Around this time I read an article about adult ADD in Time magazine. I told the dr that sounded a lot like me and he said, "Well, lets try some Ritalin and see what happens". So that was the start of drug #2. Five mg of Ritalin didn't do much but when it was upped to 10mg, I felt GREAT. But wouldn't anyone feel great on 10mg of Ritalin?
Eventually I was taking 300mg of trazodone and had a LOT of trouble getting up in the morning. The Ritalin helped with that a lot! But I started feeling a little "down", had trouble motivating, and generally felt lazy. At this point I was tapered off trazodone and started on Serzone and I felt "better" again. Why didn't this "expert" pause to consider that I felt down, unmotivated, and lazy because I was sedated with too much trazodone?
And the pattern continued - over time Serzone dose was upped to the max, eventually pooped out and Effexor XR was started. Effexor pooped out and Celexa was started. And I feel sorry for anyone tapering off of Effexor - what a nightmare. Yet "they" continue to say ADs aren't "addictive". WTF. When Celexa started to poop out, desipramine was added. Then when I had trouble sleeping trazodone was thrown in. In the meantime I switched from Ritalin to Adderal XR and was eventually taking 40mg. And I ask again - who wouldn't feel good taking that much speed???? Later the Celexa was replaced with Lexapro... And each time the drugs were changed, it was after the dosages were slowly increased to the maximum (and sometimes beyond) what was recommended by the manufacturer. At the end I was up to 60mg of Lexapro.
My husband got a great job opportunity and we moved across the country. I worried about finding a p-doc that would refill my prescriptions. Hah! No problemo! When I started to feel "bad" again, Dr. #3 suggested increasing my desipramine but wanted me to have an EKG to make sure my heart could handle it. Apparently too much desipramine can be hard on your heart. That was like a wake up call. What was I letting "them" do to me?
Now here is what I wonder - I medicated myself with marijuana for years and managed to function fairly well. I know the pot couldn't have been good for my motivation and I know I would have done better in school without it, but I still managed to maintain a 3.5 grade pt avg, then keep a job, be a mom and wife, and run a household.
Then when I went through a really traumatic experience that would have depressed ANYONE - the first thing suggested by an "expert" was to quit the pot (ok - that was probably a good idea no matter what), and "here, take this pill. It will fix you right up". There was never a suggestion of traditional psychotherapy, and there was NEVER any mention of taking the trazodone for 6 months and then stopping. Why not?
So I wonder if I really needed the meds in the first place. And then all the years - almost 20 YEARS of being on all kinds of different, powerful, psychoactive drugs. How has this changed my brain chemistry? And is it permanent?
I tell you honestly - before I started taking these drugs I NEVER felt as bad as I do right now. And yes, when the drugs were working I must say I felt great. But when the drugs stop working, and I have to go through the withdrawal while stopping one, and enduring the side effects while starting a new drug, I have never felt worse.
I even tried smoking some pot recently and I must say it made me feel a little better. I live in a state that allows pot for medical use so it's pretty easy to get. But there is no consistency in strength, and some of the stuff out there now is SO strong. The second batch I got didn't EVEN have the same "happy" effect - just made me feel dopey and depressed as ever. And how can I look for a job with marijuana in my system - everyone drug tests now...
So now here I am - over 50 yrs old, barely able to function, no motivation, no job, blah, blah, blah... If it wouldn't hurt my family so much I would kill myself. But I would never do that to them. I'm not a cruel person.
Did my years of medication do this to me? Or did my years of medication PREVENT me from feeling like this for all those years? What I do know is that I can't endure much more.
Does someone have any information about how long it takes for my brain to recover from all the drugs? It's been 3 months since I've taken anything, but the naturopath I'm seeing for neurofeedback said she can still see traces of the meds in my EEG. Is that even possible? The skeptic in me doesn't think so...
As a follow-up to my neurofeedback treatment two days ago. I still don't feel like crying.
Thanks for letting me vent. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Posted by bulldog2 on May 6, 2010, at 13:30:58
In reply to Further info re drug treatment and response, posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 13:15:55
> I have enjoyed the discourse my original post prompted. The support is wonderful and the discussions are thought-provoking and insightful.
>
> To begin using meds or not - to continue them or not - there is never a simple answer. As a teenager in the late sixties and early seventies I was a regular marijuana user. I don't recall being depressed, although looking back I suffered with ADD (not ADHD - I had the dreamy, calm attention deficit). I continued to use marijuana several times a day until my early 30s - was able to raise a child (quite successfully I can brag), maintain a household (although I wasn't the cleanest house on the block), and go to work as an office manager and bookkeeper. I usually held a job for several years before I got bored and went on to something else. I also did a lot of volunteer work for various agencies as well as my church and my daughter's school. Throughout all these years I always felt tired and "lazy" - I took a lot of naps on the weekend. When I would mention this to my GP, he would test my thyroid and my iron level and assure me nothing was wrong. One night I was complaining to a dr friend who said, "you have depression" What? I don't feel sad. He explained that depression is a physical thing and not in my head. Of course, he didn't know about the pot smoking...
>
> I pretty much poo-pooed that information, but then I went through a very sad and disturbing incident - a dear friend's grown daughter was dying of leukemia. I went to visit and ended up staying and helping care for the patient till she died. She passed away at home, there was a hospice nurse once a day, my friend was occupied with her grandchildren (only 2 & 3 yrs old), so I was the one providing ALL the care. It was a horrific scene at the end - the poor girl screamed in agony and I pumped so much morphine into her port-a-cath that I couldn't believe she didn't die.
>
> Needless to say, after that I was REALLY depressed. This young woman - my friend's daughter with two toddlers - struck down so brutally at only 23 years old. So I saw my first psychiatrist. I took one of those "funny" personality tests - I think it was the MMPI. Then this dr said I needed to stop smoking pot, and we could treat the depression. I was referred to a drug counselor and went through about 6 weeks of outpatient treatment to get off pot. At that point the P-doc started me on trazodone. Looking back, I wonder why he didn't just wait and see what would happen if I stayed clean - without any medication. Or why he didn't recommend regular psychotherapy. I wonder now if I really had Major Depression, or understandable sadness over what had just happened.
>
> Well, that was my beginning with ADs. I saw that first doctor regularly every 3 months for a "medication check". I have to say that the depression lifted - whether it was the meds or just time, who knows. But good ole Dr #1 NEVER suggested that I stop taking the meds. In fact whenever I mentioned that I wasn't feeling quite well, he upped the dose. When he retired I picked Dr #2 from the insurance list and he happily kept my rX refilled without much discussion - and if I mentioned that I felt bad, again he upped the dose. Around this time I read an article about adult ADD in Time magazine. I told the dr that sounded a lot like me and he said, "Well, lets try some Ritalin and see what happens". So that was the start of drug #2. Five mg of Ritalin didn't do much but when it was upped to 10mg, I felt GREAT. But wouldn't anyone feel great on 10mg of Ritalin?
>
> Eventually I was taking 300mg of trazodone and had a LOT of trouble getting up in the morning. The Ritalin helped with that a lot! But I started feeling a little "down", had trouble motivating, and generally felt lazy. At this point I was tapered off trazodone and started on Serzone and I felt "better" again. Why didn't this "expert" pause to consider that I felt down, unmotivated, and lazy because I was sedated with too much trazodone?
>
> And the pattern continued - over time Serzone dose was upped to the max, eventually pooped out and Effexor XR was started. Effexor pooped out and Celexa was started. And I feel sorry for anyone tapering off of Effexor - what a nightmare. Yet "they" continue to say ADs aren't "addictive". WTF. When Celexa started to poop out, desipramine was added. Then when I had trouble sleeping trazodone was thrown in. In the meantime I switched from Ritalin to Adderal XR and was eventually taking 40mg. And I ask again - who wouldn't feel good taking that much speed???? Later the Celexa was replaced with Lexapro... And each time the drugs were changed, it was after the dosages were slowly increased to the maximum (and sometimes beyond) what was recommended by the manufacturer. At the end I was up to 60mg of Lexapro.
>
> My husband got a great job opportunity and we moved across the country. I worried about finding a p-doc that would refill my prescriptions. Hah! No problemo! When I started to feel "bad" again, Dr. #3 suggested increasing my desipramine but wanted me to have an EKG to make sure my heart could handle it. Apparently too much desipramine can be hard on your heart. That was like a wake up call. What was I letting "them" do to me?
>
> Now here is what I wonder - I medicated myself with marijuana for years and managed to function fairly well. I know the pot couldn't have been good for my motivation and I know I would have done better in school without it, but I still managed to maintain a 3.5 grade pt avg, then keep a job, be a mom and wife, and run a household.
>
> Then when I went through a really traumatic experience that would have depressed ANYONE - the first thing suggested by an "expert" was to quit the pot (ok - that was probably a good idea no matter what), and "here, take this pill. It will fix you right up". There was never a suggestion of traditional psychotherapy, and there was NEVER any mention of taking the trazodone for 6 months and then stopping. Why not?
>
> So I wonder if I really needed the meds in the first place. And then all the years - almost 20 YEARS of being on all kinds of different, powerful, psychoactive drugs. How has this changed my brain chemistry? And is it permanent?
>
> I tell you honestly - before I started taking these drugs I NEVER felt as bad as I do right now. And yes, when the drugs were working I must say I felt great. But when the drugs stop working, and I have to go through the withdrawal while stopping one, and enduring the side effects while starting a new drug, I have never felt worse.
>
> I even tried smoking some pot recently and I must say it made me feel a little better. I live in a state that allows pot for medical use so it's pretty easy to get. But there is no consistency in strength, and some of the stuff out there now is SO strong. The second batch I got didn't EVEN have the same "happy" effect - just made me feel dopey and depressed as ever. And how can I look for a job with marijuana in my system - everyone drug tests now...
>
> So now here I am - over 50 yrs old, barely able to function, no motivation, no job, blah, blah, blah... If it wouldn't hurt my family so much I would kill myself. But I would never do that to them. I'm not a cruel person.
>
> Did my years of medication do this to me? Or did my years of medication PREVENT me from feeling like this for all those years? What I do know is that I can't endure much more.
>
> Does someone have any information about how long it takes for my brain to recover from all the drugs? It's been 3 months since I've taken anything, but the naturopath I'm seeing for neurofeedback said she can still see traces of the meds in my EEG. Is that even possible? The skeptic in me doesn't think so...
>
> As a follow-up to my neurofeedback treatment two days ago. I still don't feel like crying.
>
> Thanks for letting me vent. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
>
No you can't see traces of meds in an eeg! That statement alone would make me d/c that doc. You need a good diet with plenty of fish oil. A good strong multi vitamin with minerals. Protein supplement. Probaby take a year to recover.Honestly you may never recover to your pre drug years. Do the best you can. Don't be a hero. If you dont't feel well after a year you might consider some med help. It's better than sufering.
Posted by 49er on May 6, 2010, at 17:02:43
In reply to Re: Further info re drug treatment and response, posted by bulldog2 on May 6, 2010, at 13:30:58
Still Hopeful,
The reason you feel so bad is your physician tapered your meds way too fast.
It might take longer than a year for you to start feeling better.
As far as trying supplements, go very slowly as your nervous system is quite sensitive.
If you want to babble me, feel free to. I have tapered off of 4 meds down to 1 which I expect to be off of by the end of this year or next.
49er
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 17:17:21
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-crsrowds » Lou Pilder, posted by morganator on May 5, 2010, at 23:30:13
> Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
>
> You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
>
> Friends,
It is written here, [...being off a medication...more damage than the medication may do...you want people...to get off their medication?...]Friends,
What I have been saying here is to those that want to get off their drugs. You see, to those that want to get off their drugs I would like to help them overcome the withdrawal that could happen. The withdrawal period could induce one to kill themselves so I am interested in offering a way to those that want to withdrawal to get through that period.
Now this way that I share with those that want to get off their drugs is not of the way of human achievment, so I have no formula like Dr. Ashton or others for that, and no supplements or other drugs to take. In fact, the way that I help people to withdrawal is by divine acomplishment.
To those people that want to withdrawal from drugs by human achievement, I say go to a doctor that specializes in detox/withdrawal.
Now the way of human achievement can be done. The people that have talked with me have tried that and could not acheive withdrawal from the drug. You see, I am talking about not renovating one's person, but to have a transformation to a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit. And to sing a new song.
Lou
Posted by SLS on May 6, 2010, at 17:52:31
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
If someone is to relapse after discontinuing drug treatment, it will usually happen within the first four months. There is a phenomenon known as withdrawal rebound depression. It occurs upon drug discontinuation, and is transient. I am not convinced that there is a long delay between when a drug is discontinued and when a withdrawal rebound depression begins. So, if you felt well for a few months before feeling depressed again, I would think that to be a relapse rather than a withdrawal rebound.
You don't sound as if you are prepared to restart antidepressants at this point in time. I don't blame you. You invested a lot of time and experienced a lot of pain to get off of them.
- Scott
Posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 20:29:45
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN » StillHopefull, posted by SLS on May 6, 2010, at 17:52:31
Thanks for the info - It was back in August when my current meds started to poop out. It was then that I decided to quit and face the unknown consequences of withdrawal and possible relapse, rather than go through the torture of starting new meds. The weeks of trials with side effects, combined with the withdrawal of the old meds was just too much to face. Since I was already depressed due to poop out, I rationalized that I couldn't feel much worse.
Basically I have been depressed since August - some days are better than others. So I can't say whether this is withdrawal rebound depression or relapse. Either way it stinks.
You're right - I'm not prepared to restart ADs at this time. But I will take them again if I feel I have to in order to survive.
Too bad Lou can't wave his magic want and make us all better!!! I'm all for uplifting the spirit, yada, yada, yada, and I DO believe that a good attitude helps, and I DO believe that God can work miracles. BUT I also know that no magic wand or good attitude is going to help a diabetic survive without insulin... And I know that some people must have their brain chemistry altered in order to survive.
Thanks!
Posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 20:53:29
In reply to Lou's reply- » chujoe, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 21:30:32
Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 21:49:12
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-, posted by chujoe on May 6, 2010, at 20:53:29
> Lou, you'll have to do more than post sensationalistic videos to convince me that the careful, supervised use of psych drugs is the evil you say it is. There's a weird subtext to that vid, too: pleasure is bad for you, pleasure is bad. You didn't answer my other questions by the way.
chugo,
You wrote,[...convince me..the evil you (redacted by respondent)...a (redacted by respondent) subtext to that vid...You didn't...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.What criteria , if any, do you use to write that you think that I am trying to convince anyone here?
B. What do you mean by evivl?
C. what are the criteria that you use, if any, to say that the vid has a subtext that pleasure is bad?
D. What questions did I not answer that you would like answers to?
E. other questions if the above are answerd
Lou
Posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
In reply to Lou's response-aynupsong » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 6, 2010, at 17:17:21
> > Lou, my man, not all medications are the poison you make them out to be. Flat out, the depression and anxiety, that may result in being off a medication that has successfully helped one to feel better over the years, can do a whole lot more damage than the medication may do.
> >
> > You want people who are on medications that feel good and function well and experience very few or no side effects to get off their medication? Maybe I am misinterpreting your message here.
> >
> > Friends,
> It is written here, [...being off a medication...more damage than the medication may do...you want people...to get off their medication?...]
>
> Friends,
> What I have been saying here is to those that want to get off their drugs. You see, to those that want to get off their drugs I would like to help them overcome the withdrawal that could happen. The withdrawal period could induce one to kill themselves so I am interested in offering a way to those that want to withdrawal to get through that period.
> Now this way that I share with those that want to get off their drugs is not of the way of human achievment, so I have no formula like Dr. Ashton or others for that, and no supplements or other drugs to take. In fact, the way that I help people to withdrawal is by divine acomplishment.
> To those people that want to withdrawal from drugs by human achievement, I say go to a doctor that specializes in detox/withdrawal.
> Now the way of human achievement can be done. The people that have talked with me have tried that and could not acheive withdrawal from the drug. You see, I am talking about not renovating one's person, but to have a transformation to a new person, with a new heart and a new spirit. And to sing a new song.
> LouWhen I quit SSRIs the first 3 times, I just quit and did not withdrawal at all. No divine intervention or help by a doctor. I think there are many out there that ween off or quit cold turkey without any serious withdrawals.
I believe people can use their minds and the power of positive thinking in some cases to get threw medication withdrawal, I'm just not so sure about divine intervention and spiritual enlightenment.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2010, at 22:11:18
In reply to Re: Lou's response-aynupsong, posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
Your're right I've just stopped many antidepressants. No problems Phillipa
Posted by 49er on May 7, 2010, at 5:35:01
In reply to Re: Lou's response-aynupsong, posted by morganator on May 6, 2010, at 22:06:45
> When I quit SSRIs the first 3 times, I just quit and did not withdrawal at all. No divine intervention or help by a doctor. I think there are many out there that ween off or quit cold turkey without any serious withdrawals.
>
> I believe people can use their minds and the power of positive thinking in some cases to get threw medication withdrawal, I'm just not so sure about divine intervention and spiritual enlightenment.Hi Morganator,
Joseph Glenmullen, who is not antimeds, has said that 70% of people who cold turkey ADs have withdrawal problems.
In all honestly, I think we really don't know the true statistics of who has problems with withdrawals and who doesn't.
Many people who have problems mistakenly think it is a return of their illness and don't say anything to their doctors. And if they do, the doctors mistakenly claim their illness has returned. Remember, alot of the literature says that withdrawal symptoms pass in two weeks.
I agree that having a positive attitude helps. But it is not going to make withdrawal symptoms go away. Only time does that.
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