![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
The truth is, I have never had such a good response to a drug as I did to Parnate. It treated my depression, mood swings, anger/rage, abandonment issues (or rejection sensitivity), body dysmorphic disorder, and even Interstitial Cystitis.
The problem is, I have never had such bad side effects, either. The insomnia, I am willing to deal with.
The acne, I am not. Maybe it's superficial but when a drug cures your body dysmorphic disorder only to cause cystic acne, thereby giving you a tangible REASON to hate the way you look, it is devastating.
I was wondering if:
a) anyone knows the mechanism by which Parnate-induced acne exerts itself?
and b) I took birth control pills, since it appears to be hormonal (did not respond to Retin-A, Differin, Duac, or Minocycline), I might reduce this condition?
The acne is still there. And now, not only am I dealing with that, but I am dealing with suicidal depression.
I would not take birth control pills otherwise - I can't because of my bladder - but since Parnate basically cured my IC for 7 months, maybe it wouldn't cause me to flare. (I am flaring like crazy now without Parnate.)
No doctor in their right mind would ever prescribe me Accutane, and there's also that stupid iPledge program that requires women to be on birth control while on Accutane as it is, with pregnancy tests every month, so Accutane seems like a bad choice, anyway.
Please help - I feel desperate. EMSAM is worsening my bladder condition and I think it's going to be one of those blacklisted drugs, unfortunately. I am already having enuresis at 6 mg.
Posted by ravenstorm on May 6, 2006, at 12:50:58
In reply to I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
Aren't you afraid you will begin abusing parnate again?
Is the acne worse when you take too much parnate to "get high", or is it really bad even when you take it at theraputic doses?
Be aware that BC pills make some women depressed.
Posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 15:07:24
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by ravenstorm on May 6, 2006, at 12:50:58
> Aren't you afraid you will begin abusing parnate again?
>
> Is the acne worse when you take too much parnate to "get high", or is it really bad even when you take it at theraputic doses?
>
> Be aware that BC pills make some women depressed.I am afraid of that, yes, but it is also the only medication that helped my depression while not worsening my bladder condition.
And the acne is still there right now so I need something to make it go away anyway. It began at 60 mgs and worsened as I went up to 90 mgs. My initial antidepressant response - which began at approx. 40 - 60 mgs - went away after a period of time, leading me to believe it was the initial amphetamine-like effect. I was stable at 90 mgs for a period of time (w/ some episodes of abuse) and it worked fairly consistently as an antidepressant, with some mood lability - though not nearly as much as when I am off meds.
Posted by JaclinHyde on May 6, 2006, at 15:11:19
In reply to I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
You know, I am willing to bet that it had more to do with the hormones than the Parnate. Not that it couldn't be the Parnate....it just seems more likely to be hormone related.
JH
Posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 15:27:04
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by JaclinHyde on May 6, 2006, at 15:11:19
> You know, I am willing to bet that it had more to do with the hormones than the Parnate. Not that it couldn't be the Parnate....it just seems more likely to be hormone related.
>
> JHNo, my dermatologist said it was due to Parnate. As did my psychiatrist. I have had perfect skin my entire life until I initiated this drug.
On 40 mgs, it began. It got worse and worse as I went up on the dose, finally becoming cystic at 90 mgs. It has improved as I lowered the dose and went off of it but, because it is cystic, will not go away entirely without treatment.
My acne exhibited a very clear dosage pattern with Parnate. My psychiatrist said she has seen this happen with many others she has treated w/ Parnate and that, once someone is off the med, it often requires auxillary treatment to make it go away entirely.
In all of the hospitals I have worked at (though I am verrrry early into med school and have not done a psychiatry rotation yet; this work was all before med school and strictly observation) I have only seen a handful of people on MAOIs so I don't know how common this side effect is, so I'll have to trust my psychiatrist on this one.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2006, at 16:06:22
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 15:27:04
What about Laser theraphy or a face peel? Grabbing at straws. Love Phillipa
Posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 17:02:45
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate. » tygereyes, posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2006, at 16:06:22
> What about Laser theraphy or a face peel? Grabbing at straws. Love Phillipa
I am a poor med student and those aren't covered by insurance. :(
I have tried the at home microdermabrasion & chemical peels but to no avail.
I am hoping that maybe antibiotics + birth control + topical cream will make it go away. However, I am terrified of the BC weight gain.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2006, at 21:29:06
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 17:02:45
Don't they have some low dose new ones out now? Not sure post menopausal. Love Phillipa ps clearasil clears up pimples for me but I guess your case is much more severe. I wish I had another answer for you.
Posted by Don_Bristol on May 7, 2006, at 6:19:46
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by ravenstorm on May 6, 2006, at 12:50:58
> Aren't you afraid you will begin abusing parnate again?
>
> Is the acne worse when you take too much parnate to "get high", or is it really bad even when you take it at theraputic doses?
>
> Be aware that BC pills make some women depressed.
Hi folks. PMFJI but how do you abuse Parnate?I take 50mg Parnate with zero side effects and I want to take a higher dose. How did you know you had hit "abuse"?
Don
Posted by JaclinHyde on May 7, 2006, at 8:05:43
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by Don_Bristol on May 7, 2006, at 6:19:46
Don, I knew I was abusing it when I could feel it wearing off so I popped another. I am bipolar II which I truly believe was the reason I abused it. I love the mania feeling and the Parnate nudged me into it everytime I took it. You probably are not bipolar so you don't notice this effect.
For me I guess you could say the drug worked too well ;-)
JH
> > Aren't you afraid you will begin abusing parnate again?
> >
> > Is the acne worse when you take too much parnate to "get high", or is it really bad even when you take it at theraputic doses?
> >
> > Be aware that BC pills make some women depressed.
>
>
> Hi folks. PMFJI but how do you abuse Parnate?
>
> I take 50mg Parnate with zero side effects and I want to take a higher dose. How did you know you had hit "abuse"?
>
> Don
>
Posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 10:59:04
In reply to I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
> The truth is, I have never had such a good response to a drug as I did to Parnate. It treated my depression, mood swings, anger/rage, abandonment issues (or rejection sensitivity), body dysmorphic disorder, and even Interstitial Cystitis.
>
> The problem is, I have never had such bad side effects, either. The insomnia, I am willing to deal with.
>
> The acne, I am not. Maybe it's superficial but when a drug cures your body dysmorphic disorder only to cause cystic acne, thereby giving you a tangible REASON to hate the way you look, it is devastating.
>
> I was wondering if:
>
> a) anyone knows the mechanism by which Parnate-induced acne exerts itself?
>
> and b) I took birth control pills, since it appears to be hormonal (did not respond to Retin-A, Differin, Duac, or Minocycline), I might reduce this condition?
>
> The acne is still there. And now, not only am I dealing with that, but I am dealing with suicidal depression.
>
> I would not take birth control pills otherwise - I can't because of my bladder - but since Parnate basically cured my IC for 7 months, maybe it wouldn't cause me to flare. (I am flaring like crazy now without Parnate.)
>
> No doctor in their right mind would ever prescribe me Accutane, and there's also that stupid iPledge program that requires women to be on birth control while on Accutane as it is, with pregnancy tests every month, so Accutane seems like a bad choice, anyway.
>
> Please help - I feel desperate. EMSAM is worsening my bladder condition and I think it's going to be one of those blacklisted drugs, unfortunately. I am already having enuresis at 6 mg.<sigh> I'm somewhat puzzled as to your attributing Parnate as causing your acne. At one point you ask if anyone knows the mechanism for Parnate induced acne. Toward the end of your post, you claim you are flaring like crazy since being off Parnate.
I would think in most cases Parnate would reduce your flare by a decrease in stress. Parnate may induce seborrhea and cause inflammation of the follicle resulting in acne, but I think your doc has ruled that one out as you've expressed it's a hormonal problem.
I don't like to advise when I'm not given all information. I hate to hear of your sufferring. I'll leave you with some abstracts. Perhaps you can read through them and pick the one that seems to fit what your're describing. I'm sorry I could not have been more helpful:
Acne in Adult Women
Hormone-related acne in adult women may have its onset or may notably worsen in the adult years. As already noted, acne in women frequently persists beyond the teen years and may persist into middle age. When a cohort of patients older than age 25 was examined, only 3% of men but 12% of women exhibited acne.[6] Adult women frequently notice premenstrual flares of acne, and flares are also induced by stress probably due to adrenal stimulation. Adult women with acne may notice increased oiliness, menstrual irregularities, and, occasionally, facial hirsutism. Many fail standard acne therapy.
The clinical picture demonstrates inflammatory and noninflammatory acne of the lower face, especially the jaw line and chin. In most cases, serum androgens are normal, but there is increased sensitivity at the end organs. However, if the woman has menstrual irregularity, hirsutism, virilization, infertility, or very sudden, late onset of acne, evaluation of the adrenals, ovaries, and pituitary should be undertaken in collaboration with an endocrinologist. Laboratory clues to significant endocrine aberrations include:
DHEAS > 6000-8000 ng/dL: suggests adrenal tumorDHEAS 4000-8000 ng/dL: suggests late-onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Testosterone > 200 ng/dL: suggests ovarian tumor
Testosterone > 95 ng/dL suggests polycystic ovary syndrome
LH/FSH > 3/1: suggests polycystic ovary syndrome
Treatment of Acne in Adult Women
Initial treatment of acne in adult women is similar to the treatment of other forms of acne: topical and oral antibiotics, topical benzoyl peroxide, retinoids, or azelaic acid. However, in addition to these modalities, oral contraceptive therapy is highly effective.
Oral contraceptives combine an estrogen with a progestin. The estrogen increases SHBG, thereby decreasing free testosterone. The progestin competitively binds androgen receptors, decreases ovarian testosterone production, inhibits 5-alpha reductase, and may decrease adrenal production of DHEAS. The undesirable side effects of oral contraceptive therapy include nausea, headache, breast tenderness, weight gain, and breakthrough bleeding. However, these symptoms most frequently occur in first-time users and usually resolve with continued use.Contraindications to the use of oral contraceptives include hypertension, history of stroke, history of thromboembolism, smoking in women older than 35, or a history of breast or uterine cancer. Desirable effects include the regulation of menses, decrease in PMS, decreased acne, decreased hirsutism, decreased bone loss, and decreased ovarian and colorectal cancer.
Currently Used Oral Contraceptives
Most of the currently used oral contraceptives employ ethinyl estradiol as the estrogen, but there are 3 commonly used progestins:Desogestrel (Desogen, Ortho-Cept, Mircette)
Norgestimate (Ortho-Cyclen, Ortho Tri-Cyclen [FDA-approved for acne])
Levonorgestrel (Alesse)
These contraceptives are particularly useful in women with adult acne because they tend to have minimal effects on weight gain, blood pressure, and lipoprotein metabolism. A trial of oral contraceptives should continue for at least 3 months to adequately evaluate efficacy.
Other Antiandrogens
When the response to oral contraceptives is inadequate, a trial of spironolactone may be considered. Spironolactone blocks the binding of DHT to receptor (decreased sebum production) and decreases ovarian and adrenal androgen synthesis. Spironolactone is useful in hormonal acne, hirsutism, and androgenetic alopecia. The dose range is from 25 to 200 mg per day, given in 2 divided doses. It is usually best to start at 25 mg twice daily and gradually increase by 25 mg twice daily. Side effects include breast tenderness, menstrual abnormalities, headache, and weight gain. Spironolactone must always be given with an oral contraceptive, because if pregnancy occurs the drug would cause feminization of a male fetus.
Cyproterone acetate is a potent antiandrogen that is useful for acne and hirsutism. When combined with ethinyl estradiol it forms the effective oral contraceptive Diane-35. However, no products containing cyproterone are approved for use in the United States.Finasteride inhibits only Type II 5-alpha reductase and therefore is not effective in acne because sebaceous receptors are Type I.
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and Acne
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) comprises a group of autosomal recessive disorders of adrenal synthesis of cortisol. The relationship between CAH and treatment-resistant acne was discussed by Gerd Plewig, MD,[7] University of Munich, Germany. Ninety-five percent of these patients have a deficiency of the enzyme 21-hydroxylase. There are early-onset and late-onset types. When the onset is in infancy, symptoms are severe, including salt wasting, virilization, and failure to thrive. When onset is late, symptoms include hirsutism, menstrual irregularities, and acne. In some cases, acne may be the only sign of CAH in women or men.
Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) produced in the pituitary stimulates the adrenal gland to produce cortisol and androgens. Due to the 21-hydroxylase deficiency in CAH, the usual levels of ACTH do not result in an adequate level of adrenal cortisol production. The resultant elevations in ACTH production lead to overproduction of DHEAS and androstenedione, which are peripherally converted to testosterone and DHT in the sebaceous gland and other target tissues.The clinician should suspect CAH if there is early-onset acne, acne is severe, acne is persistent, acne treatment fails, or hirsutism or irregular menses accompany acne. The work-up should proceed in collaboration with an endocrinologist.
Detection of CAH
The presence of CAH may be detected by measurement of 8-9 AM elevations of the cortisol precursor 17-alpha hydroxyprogesterone. This substance should be measured along with testosterone and androstenedione. If a female patient is on oral contraceptives, the values should be assessed on day 7 of the menstrual period. Unfortunately, many patients with late-onset CAH will have normal resting levels of 17-alpha hydroxyprogesterone. In these patients, abnormal responses to ACTH stimulation must be demonstrated to diagnose CAH.[5] This process consists of administration of intravenous ACTH and measurement of 17-alpha hydroxyprogesterone 60 minutes later.CAH Management
The management of CAH-related acne involves isotretinoin or antibiotics combined with glucocorticoids, which are a necessity. Usually, prednisone is started at 20-40 mg per day if the condition is severe, or 4 mg per day if mild. Maintaining control differs in men and women. For women, an oral contraceptive with antiandrogen activity is employed. Diane-35 is the oral contraceptive of choice in Europe, though it is unavailable in the United States. For men, low-dose corticosteroids are used. Treatment adequacy is assessed by the clinical result. In Dr. Plewig's experience with more than 50 patients, more than 90% respond favorably to these treatments. Frequently, steroid suppression therapy can be stopped within 6 months to 1 year without recurrence.Antibiotic Treatment and P acnes Resistance
In the United Kingdom, 2.5-3 million prescriptions for antiacne antibiotics are filled each year, pointed out William J. Cunliffe, MD,[8] University of Leeds, Leeds, United Kingdom. Therefore, the consideration of antibiotic resistance is of great importance. However, resistance matters only if the antibacterial action of the drug is the most important effect of the medication. Most antiacne antibiotics have important anti-inflammatory effects independent of their antibiotic action.
There are several reasons for treatment failures when antibiotics are used in acne. These include inadequate treatment duration, poor compliance, very high sebum rate, bacterial folliculitis (gram negative, S aureus), and P acnes resistance.P acnes resistance has greatly increased over the past decade.[9] When skin carriage of resistant P acnes was assessed in the United Kingdom (1999-2000) at least 50% showed resistance to at least 1 of the commonly employed antibiotics tested. Fifty percent showed resistance to erythromycin, 40% to clindamycin, and 20% to tetracycline. Furthermore, in the United States in 1997, 30% of cultured carried strains were resistant to tetracycline in the laboratory.
Follicular drug concentrations and true clinical resistance are hard to assess, but it has been estimated that up to 40% of acne patients have some form of clinically relevant P acnes resistance. New patients are unlikely to harbor resistant strains, but patients with a long history of antibiotic use, particularly if their compliance and response have been poor, show significant resistance. Up to 50% of siblings and close contacts of these patients share resistant P acnes strains.[10] Besides the face, the nares is a common site of resistant bacterial carriage. In fact, we dermatologists usually carry large numbers of resistant P acnes on our own faces.
When antibiotic therapy is begun, resistance is uncommon. However, after 16 weeks of treatment, resistance is fairly high. Resistance develops by mutation, and it appears that mutants are as viable as sensitive strains. When the antibiotic is stopped, the mutants are usually not replaced by sensitive bacteria.
Tips to Avoid Resistant P acnes
The following clinical tips may help avoid the development of antibiotic-resistant strains of P acnes:Avoid extended antibiotic use.
Stop antibiotics when control is achieved, maintaining control with other agents.
Use antibiotics only in combination with benzoyl peroxide or a retinoid.
Consider adding zinc acetate to the regimen.
Do not hesitate to use isotretinoin when indicated.
Topical Retinoids
Topical retinoids were first used for acne by Dr. Albert Kligman in 1969. The characterization of retinoid receptors beginning in 1987 allowed chemists to begin to design retinoids to fit selective receptors.[11] Receptor binding produces a variety of notable effects on follicular keratinization which have a favorable effect on acne.
Clinically visible acne lesions consist of comedones, inflammatory papules, pustules, and nodules. Precursor lesions consist of microcomedones, in which the mid-portion of the follicle begins to expand with lipid and keratinous material, resulting in a thinning and ballooning of the follicular wall. These microcomedones may progress to fully developed comedones or inflammatory lesions. The microcomedo provides a good environment for P acnes growth. P acnes elaborates a variety of inflammatory molecules, including chemotactic factors for polymorphonuclear leukocytes and lymphocytes. Rupture of the follicle wall leads to massive inflammation as evidenced by visible papules, pustules, and nodules.The topical retinoids and similar compounds act mainly at the level of the microcomedo. They effect changes in the environment that affect the viability and growth of P acnes and enhance the penetration of other drugs such as antibiotics. The topical retinoids do not affect sebum production, though patients sometimes subjectively feel that their faces are less oily.
Acne Preparations With Retinoid Activity
The 3 available retinoid or retinoid-like medications are tretinoin (Retin-A, Avita), tazarotene (Tazorac), and adapalene (Differin). While tretinoin binds to alpha, beta, and gamma retinoid receptors, tazarotene and adapalene selectively bind beta and gamma receptors.[12,13] Traditionally recognized to be effective in comedonal acne, all 3 agents are also useful in papulopustular acne. James J. Leyden, MD,[14] University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, noted a 45% to 55% reduction in inflammatory acne lesions after a 12-week course of tretinoin (0.025%). Tazarotene is thought to be slightly more effective and adapalene slightly less effective in clinical practice. All work best in combination with oral or topical antibiotics.Retinoid Irritation
Unfortunately, besides being effective antiacne agents, the retinoids also have the potential for promotion of inflammation, especially in patients with atopy or rosacea. This irritancy potential is the reason topical retinoids are less frequently used in inflammatory acne. One confounding factor is that the sorbic acid in many tretinoin preparations stimulates vasodilation leading to flushing. However, true irritancy is an important factor. Dr. Leyden noted 60 patients treated with tazarotene 0.1% gel, tretinoin 0.1% gel microsphere, tretinoin 0.25 % gel, or adapalene 0.1% gel. When side-to-side facial comparisons were made, erythema was noted with all 3 preparations, but tazarotene and tretinoin 0.025% gel were more irritating than tretinoin microsphere or adapalene. However, reactions strong enough to cause patients to alter their treatment program were only slightly more common in tazarotene users. Differences in irritation among the 3 products were much more minor if atopic or rosacea patients were excluded.
A variety of factors influence retinoid tolerability. These include both patient and environmental factors. "Sensitive skin" factors include factors important in atopy and rosacea such as integrity of the stratum corneum, tendency to vascular reactivity, and ability to downregulate inflammation. Environmental factors include seasonal climate changes and moisturizer use. It appears that retinoid irritation depends more on these factors than on which retinoid is chosen. Tips to tell patients to enhance tolerability include:
Wash only with mild soaps or cleansers.Minimize astringents.
Delay application of retinoids for 20-30 minutes after cleansing.
Avoid early use of alpha-hydroxy acids.
Start slowly, every 2-3 days.
Minimize application to the nasolabial and periocular areas.
Use noncomedogenic moisturizers.
Posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 12:08:52
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 10:59:04
<< I'm somewhat puzzled as to your attributing Parnate as causing your acne. At one point you ask if anyone knows the mechanism for Parnate induced acne. Toward the end of your post, you claim you are flaring like crazy since being off Parnate. >>
My INTERSTITIAL CYSTITIS is flaring like crazy. NOT my acne. "Flare" is a term used by IC sufferers to describe a worsening of symptoms.
Posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 12:10:15
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 10:59:04
... thank you, alone ranger, for the information.
I should also add that my psychiatrist mentioned that this is an underreported side effect (though it is listed in the full prescribing information) with Parnate.
Both she and my dermatologist have agreed that Parnate was the culprit in causing this problem.
Posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 16:47:04
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 12:10:15
> ... thank you, alone ranger, for the information.
>
> I should also add that my psychiatrist mentioned that this is an underreported side effect (though it is listed in the full prescribing information) with Parnate.
>
> Both she and my dermatologist have agreed that Parnate was the culprit in causing this problem.Tygereyes,
I believe you about Parnate causing the acne. There's just this continuous undereporting problem of side effects and most docs use the pdr as the holy grail. In the past few days, the FDA has now esatblished sustained hypertension with Effexor and effexor XR in some folks after several reports.
I don't understand why your doctor put you on Emsam with your interstitial cystitis. The insert clearly inicates urinary tract infections and frequent urination under the urogenital section. Is there any way you can add on Neurontin, low doses cylosporine, or oral Pentosan Polysulfate which have been effective in treating your disorder? Maybe you've already tried these in the past without any luck. I don't have an answer as to why the Parnate is causing the acne. The abstract I sent you was dealing with treating challenges to resistant acne. I'll holler if I find an answer for you.
Posted by willyee on May 7, 2006, at 17:50:20
In reply to I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
I dont know if i missed this already being asked,but have you thought of the possability of one of the binding agents,the color dye etc of the drug causing this?
> The truth is, I have never had such a good response to a drug as I did to Parnate. It treated my depression, mood swings, anger/rage, abandonment issues (or rejection sensitivity), body dysmorphic disorder, and even Interstitial Cystitis.
>
> The problem is, I have never had such bad side effects, either. The insomnia, I am willing to deal with.
>
> The acne, I am not. Maybe it's superficial but when a drug cures your body dysmorphic disorder only to cause cystic acne, thereby giving you a tangible REASON to hate the way you look, it is devastating.
>
> I was wondering if:
>
> a) anyone knows the mechanism by which Parnate-induced acne exerts itself?
>
> and b) I took birth control pills, since it appears to be hormonal (did not respond to Retin-A, Differin, Duac, or Minocycline), I might reduce this condition?
>
> The acne is still there. And now, not only am I dealing with that, but I am dealing with suicidal depression.
>
> I would not take birth control pills otherwise - I can't because of my bladder - but since Parnate basically cured my IC for 7 months, maybe it wouldn't cause me to flare. (I am flaring like crazy now without Parnate.)
>
> No doctor in their right mind would ever prescribe me Accutane, and there's also that stupid iPledge program that requires women to be on birth control while on Accutane as it is, with pregnancy tests every month, so Accutane seems like a bad choice, anyway.
>
> Please help - I feel desperate. EMSAM is worsening my bladder condition and I think it's going to be one of those blacklisted drugs, unfortunately. I am already having enuresis at 6 mg.
Posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 17:53:48
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 16:47:04
> > ... thank you, alone ranger, for the information.
> >
> > I should also add that my psychiatrist mentioned that this is an underreported side effect (though it is listed in the full prescribing information) with Parnate.
> >
> > Both she and my dermatologist have agreed that Parnate was the culprit in causing this problem.
>
> Tygereyes,
> I believe you about Parnate causing the acne. There's just this continuous undereporting problem of side effects and most docs use the pdr as the holy grail. In the past few days, the FDA has now esatblished sustained hypertension with Effexor and effexor XR in some folks after several reports.
> I don't understand why your doctor put you on Emsam with your interstitial cystitis. The insert clearly inicates urinary tract infections and frequent urination under the urogenital section. Is there any way you can add on Neurontin, low doses cylosporine, or oral Pentosan Polysulfate which have been effective in treating your disorder? Maybe you've already tried these in the past without any luck. I don't have an answer as to why the Parnate is causing the acne. The abstract I sent you was dealing with treating challenges to resistant acne. I'll holler if I find an answer for you.
>
>My worst IC symptom is (embarrasingly) bed-wetting. Neurontin caused this to happen AND made me stupid on top of it.
Elmiron (pentosan polysulfate) didn't help, and made my hair fall out. :-/
Also, most drugs have "urinary frequency" listed as a side effect - even Parnate, which basically cured my IC. It is impossible to tell which drugs will activate it.
Drugs that caused bed-wetting included: ALL SSRIs & SSNRIs, Trileptal, Seroquel, Lamictal, Zonegran, Topamax, Risperdal, and Zyprexa. Some of these meds could be "balanced out" with tricyclics, such as Trileptal and Seroquel. The others could not - even with high-dose tricyclics, I was experiencing bedwetting. The SSRIs/SSNRIs were the worst offenders.
I was shocked when Parnate didn't cause it - and even enabled me to take Seroquel and Ambien, drugs that otherwise would have caused bedwetting! It "cured" my IC - or at least brought me as close to a cure as I will ever get. No bedwetting, no pain, no frequency, no urgency ... it was wonderful. And a total surprise, being that Parnate is so rarely prescribed and IC is so rarely diagnosed that to find someone with both would be unusual (not to mention, the journals probably wouldn't publish such a case study anyway.)
I was hoping that EMSAM, being a MAOI, would be similar in not causing bladder problems. However, I am still taking Seroquel and Ambien and it is possible that it is these two drugs that are causing the recent problems, now that I am no longer on Parnate. I am going to try 9 mg/24 hr as an experiment with mood and with IC symptoms and, if either of those don't improve, will go back to Parnate and find some way to manage my skin.
Posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 18:13:30
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 17:53:48
> > > ... thank you, alone ranger, for the information.
> > >
> > > I should also add that my psychiatrist mentioned that this is an underreported side effect (though it is listed in the full prescribing information) with Parnate.
> > >
> > > Both she and my dermatologist have agreed that Parnate was the culprit in causing this problem.
> >
> > Tygereyes,
> > I believe you about Parnate causing the acne. There's just this continuous undereporting problem of side effects and most docs use the pdr as the holy grail. In the past few days, the FDA has now esatblished sustained hypertension with Effexor and effexor XR in some folks after several reports.
> > I don't understand why your doctor put you on Emsam with your interstitial cystitis. The insert clearly inicates urinary tract infections and frequent urination under the urogenital section. Is there any way you can add on Neurontin, low doses cylosporine, or oral Pentosan Polysulfate which have been effective in treating your disorder? Maybe you've already tried these in the past without any luck. I don't have an answer as to why the Parnate is causing the acne. The abstract I sent you was dealing with treating challenges to resistant acne. I'll holler if I find an answer for you.
> >
> >
>
> My worst IC symptom is (embarrasingly) bed-wetting. Neurontin caused this to happen AND made me stupid on top of it.
>
> Elmiron (pentosan polysulfate) didn't help, and made my hair fall out. :-/
>
> Also, most drugs have "urinary frequency" listed as a side effect - even Parnate, which basically cured my IC. It is impossible to tell which drugs will activate it.
>
> Drugs that caused bed-wetting included: ALL SSRIs & SSNRIs, Trileptal, Seroquel, Lamictal, Zonegran, Topamax, Risperdal, and Zyprexa. Some of these meds could be "balanced out" with tricyclics, such as Trileptal and Seroquel. The others could not - even with high-dose tricyclics, I was experiencing bedwetting. The SSRIs/SSNRIs were the worst offenders.
>
> I was shocked when Parnate didn't cause it - and even enabled me to take Seroquel and Ambien, drugs that otherwise would have caused bedwetting! It "cured" my IC - or at least brought me as close to a cure as I will ever get. No bedwetting, no pain, no frequency, no urgency ... it was wonderful. And a total surprise, being that Parnate is so rarely prescribed and IC is so rarely diagnosed that to find someone with both would be unusual (not to mention, the journals probably wouldn't publish such a case study anyway.)
>
> I was hoping that EMSAM, being a MAOI, would be similar in not causing bladder problems. However, I am still taking Seroquel and Ambien and it is possible that it is these two drugs that are causing the recent problems, now that I am no longer on Parnate. I am going to try 9 mg/24 hr as an experiment with mood and with IC symptoms and, if either of those don't improve, will go back to Parnate and find some way to manage my skin.Willyee raises an excellent point. Had you ever tried quickly washing the red coating off the tabs?
Posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 22:04:36
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by alone ranger on May 7, 2006, at 18:13:30
that's a good idea. Perhaps if I go back on Parnate I'll try that.
Posted by JaclinHyde on May 8, 2006, at 17:53:57
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 7, 2006, at 17:53:48
I am 48 and have lost control of my bladder during the night more than once taking both Ambien and Seroquel. Especially Seroquel. I have also taken Neurontin but that never caused the loss of control. And of course I have taken Parnate but that never caused it to happen to me either (not that it can't obviously.)
Just my own personal experience with those particular drugs.
JH
Posted by llrrrpp on May 8, 2006, at 20:47:56
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by JaclinHyde on May 8, 2006, at 17:53:57
I have adult acne that got much worse when I went off of BC. It's somewhat better with a regimen of differin and duac (pricey!!), but i noticed that small changes make a big difference in how my skin behaves. For instance, a carbohydrate binge usually gives me a couple of cystic pimples a few days later. Stress, ovulation, and menstruation all are associated with more pimples. Right now I'm having good luck using a 10% alpha hydroxy peel every 3-4 days, and using a day lotion with alpha-hydroxy, in addition to retinol and SPF (neutrogena pore minimizing cream). Just adding these two steps to my skincare regimen is helping immensely. Omega-3 fatty acids might help? Also, hot compresses (soak a cotton pad in the hottest water you can stand, then apply to cystic pimple for 5-10 minutes) really speeds up healing of the deeper lesions. And I bought an expensive concealer palette at the dept. store, that allows me to blend the spots away. That helps with self confidence. I wish you the best - most people don't realize that acne is even less well understood than mental illness! (and that the pimples are physically and psychologically PAINFUL!)trial and error is important, and also giving your skin a few weeks to adjust to changes that you make before you give up on some new lotion or ointment. Good luck to you, and I hope you figure this thing out :)
Posted by Bonnie_CA on May 8, 2006, at 23:19:10
In reply to I want to go back on Parnate., posted by tygereyes on May 6, 2006, at 12:02:01
>No doctor in their right mind would ever prescribe me Accutane, and there's also that stupid iPledge program that requires women to be on birth control while on Accutane as it is, with pregnancy tests every month, so Accutane seems like a bad choice, anyway.
The iPledge thing is really necessary as a part of the accutane regimen, since the birth defects are horrible. I was on accutane 7 years ago, and it was wonderful (well, getting stuck with a needle once a month wasn't wonderful, but it sure beats having bad acne), but if you have trouble with depression, I don't think any doctor would even consider it (let alone the thing with the BC). I have fought with cystic acne since I was 12, and I have no good advice for skin care. I never found anything that really does the trick (besides accutane) because I have crappy heredity. Blah. I wish you the best though, because I know how it feels to feel incredibly ugly, and how it feels to feel like everyone is staring at your zits. The things I have learned over time is that 1. You notice it more than others do, and 2. All those perfect looking faces in magazines are acheived by thick matte makeup and airbrushing. I am almost 26, and I'm still struggling with acne. I'd almost have to say, be thankful it's a drug causing your acne, because there's no curing heredity! :D -Bonnie
Posted by kimcrazylady on May 10, 2006, at 9:07:27
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by Bonnie_CA on May 8, 2006, at 23:19:10
Luckily, Parnate never causes any acne with me, but the BC pill did. It also worsened my depression, so please be careful with them. Even the very low doses made me depressed, so I cannot take the pill.
Accutane causes severe depression. I found that out when it first came out and was not widely known. Fortunately, it got rid of my acne and then I was able to help the depression by going back on Parnate (again).
I've never abused Parnate and was not aware it was possible, but the withdrawal is pure hell. I really want to try Emsam, but I cannot go off Parnate again. I tried oral Selegiline, and it wasn't working that well so I went straight back to Parnate. I have no idea why you can't go from Parnate to the patch. It seems stupid to me.
Good luck with your treatments. I hope you get the acne under control. I know how terrible it can make you feel.
Posted by willyee on May 11, 2006, at 21:40:58
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by kimcrazylady on May 10, 2006, at 9:07:27
Abuse.....the word itself sounds as if its the users fault,as if the user is doing something iresponsable.And thats usualy NOT the case with parnate or any of these drugs,had it be most of us would not be on this board,but instead dealing with much stronger issues as turning to more hardcore drugs by now.
No,but the fact you have trouble getting off,to me is a form of "abuse" if these drugs were as "safe" as the FDA claims,we should not have these issues,but they arent,and you are in a serious perdicament as many,drawn to an APPROVED safe and NON ADDICTING prescription drug,EVEN THOUGH you have taken it as directed.
This is a serious problem with all these drugs,i wish the FDA would take notice,instead of just pumping them out.They are just now putting warning labels in the bags in reference to these drugs possably .......WORSENING symptoms.....did they do this cause they KNEW and care....not a chance......they did it because enough greif from users in court came down on the right people to make this happen,so on the same note i doubt they are blind to the fact these drugs carry terrable terrable WIITHDRAWAL processes,horrendous ones.LOOK effexor withdrawal threads,and theres no lable to make an unknowing patient this?Absurd.I wish u the same luck i wish myself in getting off your choice of these drugs.We have a bumpy road ahead.
Posted by kimcrazylady on May 12, 2006, at 8:33:41
In reply to Re: I want to go back on Parnate., posted by willyee on May 11, 2006, at 21:40:58
> Abuse.....the word itself sounds as if its the users fault,as if the user is doing something iresponsable.And thats usualy NOT the case with parnate or any of these drugs,had it be most of us would not be on this board,but instead dealing with much stronger issues as turning to more hardcore drugs by now.
>
> No,but the fact you have trouble getting off,to me is a form of "abuse" if these drugs were as "safe" as the FDA claims,we should not have these issues,but they arent,and you are in a serious perdicament as many,drawn to an APPROVED safe and NON ADDICTING prescription drug,EVEN THOUGH you have taken it as directed.
>
>
> This is a serious problem with all these drugs,i wish the FDA would take notice,instead of just pumping them out.They are just now putting warning labels in the bags in reference to these drugs possably .......WORSENING symptoms.....did they do this cause they KNEW and care....not a chance......they did it because enough greif from users in court came down on the right people to make this happen,so on the same note i doubt they are blind to the fact these drugs carry terrable terrable WIITHDRAWAL processes,horrendous ones.LOOK effexor withdrawal threads,and theres no lable to make an unknowing patient this?Absurd.
>
> I wish u the same luck i wish myself in getting off your choice of these drugs.We have a bumpy road ahead.When I went of Parnate the last time, I thought it would kill me. There is virtually no literature to be found discussing the horrible withdrawal your body goes through. The only things I was able to find were on message boards such as this one.
However, I never thought I was addicted to the drug, per se. I never wanted to take more and never got a "high" from it. I did realize my body became "dependent" on it, but I chalked that up to a similar kind of dependency a diabetic has to insulin. I know my body needs some form of drug to keep my brain working correctly. After 20+ years, I am sure of it.
I wish the drug companies were more upfront with the withdrawal symptoms. The only thing they say about Parnate is to taper the drug so you don't get "sick"...or some other bull like that. I think we need to know what to expect and so do our doctors.
Sorry. I'll quit venting now :)
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.