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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 9, 2005, at 22:34:38
I have to do it for me because there is nobody else. When I crash there is nothing to be done.
Therapists say 'I think you should go now because I am just making you worse' Crisis services say 'what do you expect us to do?' If I turn up in the hospital either a p-doc will say 'you don't belong here' or they will tell me that I am creating my own distress. Sometimes both at the same time. When I crash there is nothing to be done.I never cried 'wolf'. I never threatened. Though information such as 'if you send me home I will try to kill myself' are often taken as threats. I didn't mean it that way though. I didn't.
Sometimes I do things for past clinicians. For the 2 who were different. The two who never judged me (that I could tell). The two who seemed to listen and care. Sometimes I even do things for past clinicians who did judge me. Who didn't know what to do with me. They had their moments and sometimes I'll do stuff for them.
But the memory fades. Their presence fades.
I have to do it for me. There is nobody else. And at the times when I can't do it for me anymore I do it for all the f*ckers who do judge me. I will not give them the satisfaction of telling me I am creating my own distress and attention seeking. I will not. And when even that isn't enough... Well, then I am in trouble I guess.
Posted by zeugma on January 10, 2005, at 17:37:10
In reply to me me me (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 9, 2005, at 22:34:38
> I have to do it for me because there is nobody else. When I crash there is nothing to be done.
> Therapists say 'I think you should go now because I am just making you worse' Crisis services say 'what do you expect us to do?' If I turn up in the hospital either a p-doc will say 'you don't belong here' or they will tell me that I am creating my own distress. Sometimes both at the same time. When I crash there is nothing to be done.I know the feeling. I do whatever I can, and when that doesn't work, I go to sleep or try harder. And trying harder doesn't make me feel better. But it does exhaust me. And that's the problem, in a way. I get told by well-meaning people, "There's nothing wrong with you," or "You shouldn't push yourself," or "It isn't worth it.' but when it's my life that's at stake, which boils down to+ the things I care about, it damn well is worth it, and it's the well-menaing people who don't understand what they are saying who p*ss the sh*t out of me.
>
> I never cried 'wolf'. I never threatened. Though information such as 'if you send me home I will try to kill myself' are often taken as threats. I didn't mean it that way though. I didn't.
>
Who are you threatening? An anonymous intern or something? With your own death? That it will be on their consciences? Should it be? I wonder. But when you say 'you didn't mean it that way,' you meant that that was not your intention. And that means, in turn, that you are not behaving selfishly and they are. Or something like that???> Sometimes I do things for past clinicians. For the 2 who were different. The two who never judged me (that I could tell). The two who seemed to listen and care. Sometimes I even do things for past clinicians who did judge me. Who didn't know what to do with me. They had their moments and sometimes I'll do stuff for them.
I've had 2 therapists that weren't judgmental, quacks, uninterested or just plain inept. Out of maybe a hundred. the ratio does not inspire me. And I have done lots for those who did judge me, because not all faults, blindnesses or judgmental attitudes are equal. The terrible thing is that I become impatient with those not professionally trained, and how can I blame them for not understanding exotic disorders of the nervous system? Or how can I blame people who have never ventured out of sanity into this strange world we have here? But I do, I do.
>
> But the memory fades. Their presence fades.
> I have to do it for me. There is nobody else. And at the times when I can't do it for me anymore I do it for all the f*ckers who do judge me. I will not give them the satisfaction of telling me I am creating my own distress and attention seeking. I will not. And when even that isn't enough... Well, then I am in trouble I guess.Well, if you can't do it for yourself (and it is very often that I have no desire to do it for myself, I am often indifferent to myself) do it for the people who need you more than you need them, because it's a sad world we live in.
By the way, I am writing out a response to your response to my response to your post on Wittgenstein (I feel defeated producing that grammatical string, but maybe I'll feel better tomorrow) and I have to add that I did indeed ride home on the train tonight waiting to be triggered, because I haven't been practicing proper sleep hygiene and I start getting this weird sensation of dreaming while awake (I'm a narcoleptic philosopher, I went into philosophy because of Descartes' Dream Argument and then I started living it. When everything else fails, I live for the ironies. Somehow they wring pleasure out the bitterest of situations. I suppose the pleasure I get out of life is its paradoxes, to wit:
"many people derive aesthetic satsfaction from tragic drama. The interest in the unfolding of a tragic plot is heightened by the emotions, and our attention can be held by both our emotional and our intellectual absorption. And we can even derive comfort from tragedies through imagining people far worse off than we are." Michael Clark, "Paradoxes from A to Z". Hmm, that last sentence sounds off. The comfort doesn't seem to be from the fact that they're worse off than we are, but from some source that appeals to something nobler than our usual selves. From the recognition of ourselves in these characters?)
Anyway, I am feeling weird right now, but I hope these words are some kind of consolation. By the way: when all esle fails, I fall back on this:
Because the known abd the unknown
Touch,One witnesses.-
It is ennobling
If one thinks so.If to know is noble
it is ennobling.
George Oppen, "The Collected Poems of George Oppen""
-z
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on January 10, 2005, at 21:06:42
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on January 10, 2005, at 17:37:10
:-) thanks.
> Who are you threatening?
I didn't mean it as a threat. I mean they ask how you are feeling and you say 'not so good' or whatever because you are not feeling so good. Planning how you are going to die or whatever. And then they say 'it is time you went home. What are you going to do when you go home?' And well, thats the context in which I said it. Not lots of times. Maybe only once or twice. And never after reading how borderlines were supposed to be prone to 'manipulation' and 'idle threats'. With crisis services you only have to say you are thinkng about it and they accuse you of threatening and manipulating them. But I didn't mean it as a threat. I meant it as information. I tried what I had said. The doctor seemed stunned by round two. He never thought I was serious.
Thank you.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:20:37
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 10, 2005, at 21:06:42
I don't understand what I am supposed to do.
Well, yeah I do. I am supposed to just shut myself away from the world because when I am like that I am not welcome there. I am not supposed to ask for help. I am not supposed to express my distress. I am supposed to just shut up and continue on. And when I can't do that anymore then I am supposed to shut myself away so that at least nobody else has to look at me or see me and my distress.
If there is another way then I can't see it.
People like to lecture on the good old thoughts -> feelings -> behaviour model. I am causing my own distress by the way I am thinking. I have the choice whether I express my distress or not and I should just act like everything is ok and act my way into feeling different. But the world doesn't always work that way. Not my world anyway. Does nobody else understand that?
Why is it so hard for clinicians to be kind?
To be civil?
What is it about me that always seems to bring out the worst in them?
When I am in an ok place then I can talk to them about stuff about what is going on.
But when I am distressed I can't explain to them and I just get so mad at them and then of course I aren't really helping them want to help me.What the hell is wrong with me?
I don't understand.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:28:19
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:20:37
I know nobody can save me from myself.
I know nobody can rescue me.
All I ever wanted was a little help.I am sorry
I will be ok
Posted by alexandra_k on January 12, 2005, at 18:06:37
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:28:19
The trouble is that there are just too many wolves.
It is inevitable that some sheep will get lost.
There just aren't the resources to prevent it.
It is not cost effective to do any more.
Posted by zeugma on January 12, 2005, at 18:34:29
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on January 12, 2005, at 18:06:37
cost effective. that term has an odd resonance.I am doing the cost effective thing by firing an incompetent therapist. but all therapists with a bare exception have been incompetent, unhelpful, downright bad for my mental health.
my stint with CBT was typical. thoughts precede feelings so my thoughts were meticulously logged and analyzed and my anxiety worsened.evidence that the treatment was not successful could not count, because the theory HAD to be true, thoughts must precede feelings. it was my thoughts that were blamed. until i had the thought to discontinue treatment. it was a good one, on strictly empirical grounds (i.e. my plan to hospitalize myself that i had worked out with her in case my difficulties with treatment overwhelmed me [and that were blamed on my thoughts, not on the treatment]was forgotten as soon as i stopped paying her. i made the cost effective decision.)
i wish there were a profession called psychotherapy that was not analagous to your crisis center that blames you for your crises.
i have encountered this too often for me to count it cost effective. and it is a business. and there is not a sadder one to be found.
and i feel guilty when i fire therapists. but i wish they were helpful. that is all.
-z
Posted by zeugma on January 12, 2005, at 21:28:29
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by zeugma on January 12, 2005, at 18:34:29
everytime i turn to a therapist for empathy i get coldness and stupidity.
i try to have insight into my problems, i think therapists prefer patients who have no insight and are normal. i think therapists love the smug solution, the easy word, or the harsh word that is even easier. anything other than empathy.or the sourness of being wrong. therapists will not admit being wrong. but if you can't be wrong, you can't be right. thats's a lesson from wittgenstein.
it's sour in my stomach as i realize pills are a better friend to me than a human whose degree proves she has insight. pills are a lot cheaper, too.
-z
Posted by Jai Narayan on January 12, 2005, at 21:47:37
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by zeugma on January 12, 2005, at 21:28:29
My dear friend what are you saying?
It sounds like you are having a hard time?
You know you are very special to me, right?
What is going on for you?
You sound like you are at the end of some really hard feelings.
please know that I care about you and want to hear what is going on.
your buddy
Ja*
Posted by zeugma on January 13, 2005, at 15:49:06
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger), posted by zeugma on January 12, 2005, at 21:28:29
I am never seeing a psychotherapist voluntarily again.
That is a deeply personal decision and one that pains me tremendously. I have been hurt in the past, gravely, by therapists, and it has happened again.
I have seen many therapists, so I am not basing my decision on a mere bad experience or two. I am basing it on many.
And unlike most medications, the side effects from a therapist can be for a lifetime.
-z
Posted by zeugma on January 13, 2005, at 18:01:54
In reply to farewell to therapy, posted by zeugma on January 13, 2005, at 15:49:06
it is so predictable, it sickens me literally. I fire an incompetent therapist, then go to work and have a stressful day, aggravated by the idiocy I paid a good sum (stupidly) for, and then hear on my message machine the dire prophecies, the warnings that I am making a dreadful mistake, that I better go back or my life will be destroyed, etc. I have been through it before, but it disgusts me more and more, especially since I now have a life. It is as reprehensible as it is predictable. It is revolting. Presumption beyond belief, and the guilt trip of a lifetime. It is like the bad aftertaste from a panic attack, the kind I used to have before I fired a different therapist, panic-induced nausea after eating too much chocolate. And it is as predictable as it is revolting.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2005, at 18:51:09
In reply to alexandra_k, posted by Jai Narayan on January 12, 2005, at 21:47:37
Jai,
I am ok. Sad, but ok.
I have been thinking about different lenses.
It is like I have many pairs of glasses with different lenses.
You look through the lenses and see the world.
When things get rough for me these are the lenses that I see the world through.
If I could see the nature of the distortion
It may have less power over me.
But it doesn't feel like a distortion.
When I am happy it isn't because I see that this one is false or distorted,
it is just that I am looking through another (distorted, but in a healthy way no doubt).
This feels like the lens of cold, hard, reality.
The truth about what I must do
when I am distressed
I can't see my way around it.
I don't see what else is to be done
I get scaired I will do something stupid
But I cannot ask for help
Because people will not
They do not want to hear.
So I do it for me
As best I can
And try to fight and tone down the panic
As it almost consumes me.
Alone.
There appears to be no other way.
The world can be a harsh cold place.
Babble can be a refuge
But it is inaccessible to me at times like that.
Everything is.
And that only contributes to the problem.I don't know Jai, I am kind of just venting.
I am sorry this is so hard and depressing to read.
I am ok - I am not planning on doing anything.
I promise you that. I just thought someone might have something helpful to say... A
nd people do.
Thankyou Jai.
My wonderful friend Ja*
Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2005, at 19:03:49
In reply to and the dire prophecies the day after, posted by zeugma on January 13, 2005, at 18:01:54
>everytime i turn to a therapist for empathy i get coldness and stupidity.
Yes. I do think that there is a preference for clients who tend to idealise. Makes the therapist feel good. Makes them want to help. Some people are easier to impress than others. Do you think that CBT might be especially hard to take for the philosophically inclined because of the great value we put on rationality? To be told all our problems are due to 'cognitive errors' or 'distorted thinking' is just too hard to bear?
But which lens you adopt isn't a matter of logic.
The world of the happy is quite another than that of the unhappy.
But that is not a matter of logic.
It isn't faulty thinking that causes distress
It is the lens
The whole way of being.
I don't know, I am just talking here...
I have decided never to work with another CBT therapist.
But I haven't written off therapy completely.
It is hard to find a good therapist.
I don't know why.
I don't know why.
Empathy is so hard to come by.
I think it is because people want to help by changing you.
Changing your thinking.
But acceptance is change.
Why can't they understand that?
Acceptance is change.
Especially when one has never been
Properly accepted before.
Sometimes they don't need to DO anything.
I tried explaining this to my last therapist.
She had a breakdown cause she was trying to change me all the time.
I told her she didn't need to do anything.
She said she couldn't do that ethically.
What a f*cked up world
Stupidity. Maybe it is arrogant but I am inclined to agree.
Stupidity, ignorance, inability to empathise.
But then the system isn't geared to the likes of you or me.
And not many therapists.
Not many therapists either.So sometimes all that is left is to do it in spite of them.
I agree
Therapists can f*ck you up so much.
I swear that the system produced BPD symptoms in me
BECAUSE WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE TO DO TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AROUND HERE?
It is a sick sick world.
Posted by Jai Narayan on January 13, 2005, at 19:28:27
In reply to Re: alexandra_k » Jai Narayan, posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2005, at 18:51:09
venting is good.
I, too like to have my say.
it was just a gentle check in....
you know to make sure you were alright.
but do remember how very special you are to me.
your buddy Ja*
Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2005, at 19:38:16
In reply to Re: alexandra_k, posted by Jai Narayan on January 13, 2005, at 19:28:27
> it was just a gentle check in.... you know to make sure you were alright. but do remember how very special you are to me. your buddy Ja*
Thankyou Jai.
You are very special to me as well.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2005, at 2:56:18
In reply to Re: me me me (trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on January 10, 2005, at 17:37:10
>do it for the people who need you more than you need them, because it's a sad world we live in.
Yup.
I have finished wallowing. Sorry peoples :-(
Posted by zeugma on January 16, 2005, at 11:12:40
In reply to ok. enough. » zeugma, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2005, at 2:56:18
I read an article many years ago (late 80's) ina reputable journal about how when patients offer insight into their own conditions, it is often resisted by the therapist. I found it strikingly (and frustratingly) consonant with what I was experiencing with therapy back then, and a couple more decades of experience have confirmed it for me even more.
I leave readers to draw their own conclusions from this.
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2005, at 16:03:17
In reply to enough. but just a little more..., posted by zeugma on January 16, 2005, at 11:12:40
CBT therapists tend to be very cynical about 'insight'. They say:
'What is the measure of 'insight'? Behaviour change. So why talk about 'insight' when we can just talk about behaviour change?'
I have heard them run down the notion by saying that 'insight' is when the client agrees with the therapists interpretations. The mark of 'insight' is when the client swalllows the therapists interpretations whole and learns to anticipate them and come up with them themselves.
Maybe this is true sometimes.
But it doesn't have to be that way...
I am sorry you have had so many 'bad' therapists.
I am sorry for me too :-(
This is the end of the thread.
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