![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by phunz on December 17, 2003, at 18:01:00
In reply to Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by krazybirdlady on December 17, 2003, at 12:44:18
for the past 3 or 4 years ive researched as much as i could in psychology and related feilds. from everything ive read, xanax and ativan have the same halflife but xanax is twice as potent. (although i feel xanax has stronger effects than twice as much ativan, but thats what ive read everywhere)
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 18, 2003, at 18:17:02
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by phunz on December 17, 2003, at 18:01:00
have to agree...that stuff IS potent...
Posted by squids on December 19, 2003, at 1:03:49
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by krazybirdlady on December 18, 2003, at 18:17:02
I've never been on Ativan; but I was on xanax and valium for years. For depression with anxiety. My personal experience is that xanax works great but is highly addictive - physically and psychologically. I took 3 1mg xanax a day for about a year and the withdrawals coming off that were extremely unpleasant. Later I took 2 valium 5mg a day for several years and it wasn't anything nearly as bad. The valium did pretty well for my anxiety, but caused more and longer lasting drowsiness than the xanax.
I just started on klonopin and so far it seems to be working pretty good. Supposed to have a less addictive potential than valium or xanax.
I do love xanax though. Nothing works better to get me out of a shitty, depressed mood quickly.
Posted by Lindsay Rae on December 19, 2003, at 22:35:47
In reply to Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by krazybirdlady on December 17, 2003, at 12:44:18
Oh boy, I'm really in for a horrific awakening if and when I come off of this stuff. I posted my "story" in another thread, but to make a long story boring, I have been lead straight down the path and am currently on (are you ready for this?) Methadone: 120 mg, Xanax 1mg 3x a day, Zoloft 100mg, Tagament (Cimetidine) to make the first two work longer and stronger, and Ice Cream.
I'm in my mid twenties, and I'm fully functional on these meds, to the point where I'm still depressed. It's scary, to put it bluntly, but this is where I've ended up. And it was no slow progression. I have what the Orthapoedic Surgeon called the back "of a 90 year old," so I was prescribed Darvocet for the sciatic pain from a pinched nerve, but I continued to take the meds for three years after diagnosis. It made me feel joy that I thought was not possible. I never exceeded the normal dosage and didn't need or want to. But one night when I was drinking (Vodka and Vicodin cocktail), I met...oh, I'll just copy and paste my other post.
I know you weren't addressing me with this question, but I would like to take a stab at it since I have too much experience and knowledge concerning this topic. I did both: I took opiates consistently for three years with the antidepressant effects working well without upping my dose, and after the three years I met someone who introduced me to Oxycontin and Heroin, respectively. I had a child with this man and lost him within two years. He was 27, and he died four weeks ago today from an opiate/benzo combination (I think) just before entering rehab. That said, Ultram doesn't work like Vicodin, Percoset, and the like. I don't even think it's an opiate; it was just recently classified as a narcotic, and even that is questionable. I know a couple of people who like taking them because they've experienced weight loss, but that's about it. I had a bottle of it and traded it for Darvocet back in 2000. Perhaps it's all in the mind, but I distictly remember feeling "an exaggerated sense of wellbeing," which is an actual warning under "side effects." Now how can you beat that for depression? I wholeheartedly want to believe that people like you and I NEED a synthetic opiate to feel "normal," but unfortunately it's not at the top of the Medical Journals' lists to prove or even research this theory. And until they do, it remains just that--a theory. I would give anything to go back to '99, when I first discovered that taking one Darvocet was the hidden key to unlocking peace and comfort in my own head. I could take one before class and really enjoy discussing the various literature pieces I studied on the path to getting my English Lit BA degree. In one fell swoop, I became pregnant, was placed on Methadone, and lost my fiance to the drooling jaws of addiction. Sorry to get off topic, but I guess that's how I introduce myself now. Shoot me an email if you think I'm qualified to answer your questions about opiates.But I'm scared to death to detox off of these strong meds that I depend on to take every breath. My fiance had a seizure when he stopped Xanax suddenly. Last month he died from whatever deadly combination he got into that day.
Dr. Bob, do you have any advice on tapering from the narcotics, and if I will EVER feel like getting out of bed or completing a task without shaking and vomiting once off the opiate supplement? I feel like there is no hope without the meds. I don't even feel particularly *good*, but I can't take less because I don't want to feel worse. I doubled my Xanax dose when my fiance died last month, and my counselor says it's all normal, but I don't wasnt to be on all this crap forever. My brain will never be able to function nomally again.
Thanks for replies!
Lindsay
Posted by squids on December 21, 2003, at 0:55:11
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » krazybirdlady, posted by Lindsay Rae on December 19, 2003, at 22:35:47
Thanks for sharing that. Wow, I can really relate. I once got vicodin for a root canal and suddenly I was truely happy for the first time ever. I've had severe depressions all my life and the prozac/zoloft/etc got me out of bed in the morning and let me go to work. But happiness?
That "exaggerated sense of well being" I got from opiates seemed like the way I was supposed to feel. Somehow I was born with this constant dysphoria. And I could do so much more on those pills- talk to people, work harder, enjoy socializing.Long story short, the vics went to percodans and finally to intraveneous heroin. After a while the happiness effect stopped working, but by then the physical addiction made it too difficult to quit. After some years of shooting H for nothing except to prevent from getting sick, I realized life really sucked and I had to do something about this problem.
Luckily Buprenorphine received FDA approval this year and I was able to detox off the heroin (1 gram of black tar a day for 5 years) in 7 days
"relatively painlessly" - all things considered. I had to do it in an inpatient unit. Got Buprenex (liquid form) under the tounge every 3 hours in constantly decreasing doses along with phenobarbital and some med for stomach cramps.When I say painless, I really mean it. I'm so grateful for buprenorphine. It was like having a mild flu. The buprenex was pretty sedating, so I slept a lot. But it wasn't that fucked up anxious opiate withdrawal sleep. After they stopped the Bupenex, I had serious insomnia - but the other physical discomforts from opiate withdrawal weren't present anymore.
So now I'm clean and I admit I do think about the feeling I used to get from H occasionally. And it is tempting sometimes. But I remember how bad things got as an addict and I have absolutely no desire to return to that lifestyle. If remembering what it was like out there is what I need to stay clean, then so be it.
Posted by Lindsay Rae on December 22, 2003, at 13:37:18
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » Lindsay Rae, posted by squids on December 21, 2003, at 0:55:11
>Wow, Squids, your story sounds a lot like mine, except when I was at that stage of shooting H with Chris (which only lasted two months), he put me in the Methadone outpatient program. He told me not to go above 30 mg or I wouldn't feel the dope, but I went all the way up to 80mg because I truly wanted to stop. I had gotten myself into a ton of trouble already hussling for H, including bad checks, pawning RentaCenter TV's, etc. All of which Chris told me we'd "take care of" when he got his student loan check or my tax return or whatever. I was naive, obviously. Two years ago on Thanksgiving, we let the crack dealer borrow my brand new lease car, which was leased in my Mom's name <shudder>, and the kids ended up ditching the car when they got pulled over, leaving me with a towtruck man to pay, on Thanksgiving day, just to get to my family's house three hours away. Needless to say, we were like four hours late, and my family met Chris for the first time with less than enthusiasm. When he went to jail again in December, that was the end of our run together as junkie lovers. His dad was not going to bail him out of jail this time unless we came to live with him up North. My parents just wanted me to come home, but my devotion to Chris, which was more of an attachment by fear at that point (my old friends and family won't accept me now, I've crossed the line, etc.) made me stick it out and move with him. I had never had a boyfriend who did hard drugs before. I was a totally different person by that time. And still on Methadone. See, I knew that if I detoxed from the Methadone I would get right back into painkillers again because I felt half dead without the opiates. At the time I didn't understand why longterm Methadone patients referred to the treatment as "liquid handcuffs." I guess I've never really been dope sick. I think now that it would be better if I could just take my three Vic's a day and be content, but two years on 'done makes that a near impossibility. I'm educated, and I don't think I'm the worst looking girl on the planet, but the depression or whatever it is, keeps me from being driven to achieve goals. I lack the self esteem to even try. My negative attitude is like a fabric softener clinging to my pant leg.
Lastnight I got the bi-monthly self esteem crusher from Mom, who blurted out things like, "You'll have a life when you're ready," and a vague, "You have problems...you should just go to the Medicaid office, tell them the baby's father died, get Medicaid and see a real Psychiatrist who will bonafiedly diagnose your depression and quit your job and collect SSI for your disability."
The loser-meter hit the ceiling! I pay $155 per week for daycare (it's a learning-based facility that my daughter loves) and only make about $200 a week waiting tables. I graduated in December of '99, and I'm still WAITRESSING. Luckily I woke up this morning with the flu, 102 degree fever, so I don't have to go to my pointless job and feel unproductive. Now I can lay around the house and get better. I know my mom wants me off Methadone, but I don't know if I can function without anything. I wish Bup had been around then! Anyway, sorry to ramble here. My train of thought derailed once again!
Peace,
Lindsay
Thanks for sharing that. Wow, I can really relate. I once got vicodin for a root canal and suddenly I was truely happy for the first time ever. I've had severe depressions all my life and the prozac/zoloft/etc got me out of bed in the morning and let me go to work. But happiness?
> That "exaggerated sense of well being" I got from opiates seemed like the way I was supposed to feel. Somehow I was born with this constant dysphoria. And I could do so much more on those pills- talk to people, work harder, enjoy socializing.
>
> Long story short, the vics went to percodans and finally to intraveneous heroin. After a while the happiness effect stopped working, but by then the physical addiction made it too difficult to quit. After some years of shooting H for nothing except to prevent from getting sick, I realized life really sucked and I had to do something about this problem.
>
> Luckily Buprenorphine received FDA approval this year and I was able to detox off the heroin (1 gram of black tar a day for 5 years) in 7 days
> "relatively painlessly" - all things considered. I had to do it in an inpatient unit. Got Buprenex (liquid form) under the tounge every 3 hours in constantly decreasing doses along with phenobarbital and some med for stomach cramps.
>
> When I say painless, I really mean it. I'm so grateful for buprenorphine. It was like having a mild flu. The buprenex was pretty sedating, so I slept a lot. But it wasn't that fucked up anxious opiate withdrawal sleep. After they stopped the Bupenex, I had serious insomnia - but the other physical discomforts from opiate withdrawal weren't present anymore.
>
> So now I'm clean and I admit I do think about the feeling I used to get from H occasionally. And it is tempting sometimes. But I remember how bad things got as an addict and I have absolutely no desire to return to that lifestyle. If remembering what it was like out there is what I need to stay clean, then so be it.
>
Posted by squids on December 22, 2003, at 16:29:47
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » squids, posted by Lindsay Rae on December 22, 2003, at 13:37:18
Yeah wow! I'm really sorry you went through all that, but thank's for sharing.
I too am college educated and pretty smart. Physics degree from UofMichigan and a well paying job as a computer systems analyst. All my intelligence and education didn't help though. The addiction just kept growing.
I was actually a functioning heroin addict for some 3 years, held a steady job although all my money went to support my habit which was sky high by then. Then I started doing crack too and that's when the bottom fell out. Cause now I wasn't making enough to pay rent and support 2 drug habits. I did the same things like writing bad checks, pawning/selling everything I owned. Getting into trouble. One day my car got towed and the money to get it out of impound was needed for my next fix. And I was already into my dealer for some $2000. So I never got it out and eventually it was auctioned off. And the fucked up thing was I considered all my behavior at the time perfectly sane and normal. I still shudder when I think back to those times. Especially at the end right before I got clean when I was broke and homeless and living in cheap crack hotels.
The funny thing is I come from a good middle-class asian family with every opportunity for education and success in life. I believe the years of depression took a toll on my self-esteem while the untreated ADD prevented me from doing so many things. The statistics are something like 50-60% untreated adult ADDers turn to substance abuse.
Right now, recovery is a long difficult process. I admit I still think about trying opiates now and then, but overall the ritalin/klonopin combination seems to be working pretty well to keep me stable and functioning; and I have no desire to return to that street life.
My self esteem is returning, but still pretty low. I mean when someone professional asks me what I do, what do I tell them? "I'm a drug addict living on state disability"? Not. I usually mumble something about being a contractor who's in between contracts at the moment.
I started taking a computer class recently and that's helped a lot. It's interesting and I feel productive doing it. The ritalin is helping a lot in allowing me to keep my focus.
Lindsay,
Not to pry into your personal affairs, but have you ever been evaluated for ADD. The stuff you mention about self esteem and inability to achive goals rings a bell.Best wishes,
mike
Posted by Lindsay Rae on December 22, 2003, at 22:39:12
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » Lindsay Rae , posted by squids on December 22, 2003, at 16:29:47
>Actually, Chris had ADHD, and that's why the Xanax made him feel focused and energetic, while most get the opposite effect. Knowing that he had it, though, he never sought treatment for it. Maybe that would have helped him, but I think his disease was too consuming for it to matter. When I was in kindergarten and then again in second grade, I was sent to a psychiatrist because I "daydreamed" a lot. I'd always have to ask the person next to me what the directions were since I wasn't paying attention. ADD? Maybe, but that was long before they started diagnosing every kid with it and prescribing Ritalin for kids who didn't necessarily need it. I don't know if I have it, but I do have trouble concentrating and sticking to one task. For example, if I'm making my bed, I'll do ten other things in between and maybe never get back to the original task. Is that typical of someone with ADD?
So you mentioned that you are living on disability--were you being facetious or are you really able to do that? I don't want to live off of the system forever, but Medicaid would help a lot, so I could at least see a real Psychiatrist and be properly diagnosed. My family thinks I'm just lazy, but I've had problems for a long time, and I've self medicated too much. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get off of the Methadone. I think I've done irreversable damage to my normal opiate receptors to the point where the neurons can't fire properly without the medication. I have a baby who is growing quickly and will soon have questions. I want to be cheerful and constructive, but it shouldn't be this much work.
Now that her daddy has died, do you think I'll be able to get those benefits I couldn't get before, because my $150/week job was too much, and my rejection letter stated that I have "No Medical Expenses." I only stated that I had no UNPAID medical bills, but when I went to see the case worker, she kept saying, "that case is closed now. If you want to reapply, you'll have to go through the whole process again..." Where I live it is racially biased, and I don't throw that term around loosely. Basically, if you are white, the case workers (none of which speak fluent English) are very unaccomodating.
Chris and I would have ended up in one of those crack motels too if it weren't for his dad, who helped me pay the stores to whom I had written the bad checks and paid for my Methadone among other things. Luckily, I got pregnant in January of 2002, so I couldn't join Chris in his drug escapades anymore. Just prior to the pregnancy I was shooting crack and cocaine with him every night at the dealers motel. One night, he even made me crawl out the bedroom window and drive 25 minutes at 2 am to get more, even though I didn't want to do it anymore. But ever since the baby was born and we lived six hours apart, he was obsessed with the idea that we would be a real family...he so badly wanted us to lead a normal life. But the drugs got him anyway. I still wait for him to call; it's getting harder to accept that I'll never see him again.
Anyway, any answers you can give me about disability and medicaid would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
LindsayYeah wow! I'm really sorry you went through all that, but thank's for sharing.
>
> I too am college educated and pretty smart. Physics degree from UofMichigan and a well paying job as a computer systems analyst. All my intelligence and education didn't help though. The addiction just kept growing.
>
> I was actually a functioning heroin addict for some 3 years, held a steady job although all my money went to support my habit which was sky high by then. Then I started doing crack too and that's when the bottom fell out. Cause now I wasn't making enough to pay rent and support 2 drug habits. I did the same things like writing bad checks, pawning/selling everything I owned. Getting into trouble. One day my car got towed and the money to get it out of impound was needed for my next fix. And I was already into my dealer for some $2000. So I never got it out and eventually it was auctioned off. And the fucked up thing was I considered all my behavior at the time perfectly sane and normal. I still shudder when I think back to those times. Especially at the end right before I got clean when I was broke and homeless and living in cheap crack hotels.
>
> The funny thing is I come from a good middle-class asian family with every opportunity for education and success in life. I believe the years of depression took a toll on my self-esteem while the untreated ADD prevented me from doing so many things. The statistics are something like 50-60% untreated adult ADDers turn to substance abuse.
>
> Right now, recovery is a long difficult process. I admit I still think about trying opiates now and then, but overall the ritalin/klonopin combination seems to be working pretty well to keep me stable and functioning; and I have no desire to return to that street life.
>
> My self esteem is returning, but still pretty low. I mean when someone professional asks me what I do, what do I tell them? "I'm a drug addict living on state disability"? Not. I usually mumble something about being a contractor who's in between contracts at the moment.
>
> I started taking a computer class recently and that's helped a lot. It's interesting and I feel productive doing it. The ritalin is helping a lot in allowing me to keep my focus.
>
> Lindsay,
> Not to pry into your personal affairs, but have you ever been evaluated for ADD. The stuff you mention about self esteem and inability to achive goals rings a bell.
>
> Best wishes,
> mike
>
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Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 2:21:40
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » Lindsay Rae , posted by squids on December 22, 2003, at 16:29:47
> And the f*cked up thing was I considered all my behavior at the time perfectly sane and normal.
Sorry to be such a prude, but please don't use language that could offend others:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by squids on December 23, 2003, at 3:04:20
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by Lindsay Rae on December 22, 2003, at 22:39:12
Lindsay,
I too have the "daydreaming" type as you call it. Since I wasn't hyperactive and didn't get in trouble at school they never figured it out. I've read a LOT about ADD once I found out and apparantly the daydreaming type was only recently classified in the last few years - something like "type 2 inattentive ADD w/o hyperactivity". Supposedly more females have this type and get overlooked because they aren't being rowdy in class.
The inability to concentrate and trying to do many things at once is one indicator. I used to grab something, intending to do something with it. Then something else would get my attention or interest and I would set it down on the floor or counter, pick up something new, and never finished what I originally was going to do. My apartment looked like a disaster area because of that behavior, but I couldn't ever seem to "get it together".
I always got called lazy because I procrastinated constantly - but that's another symtom. I just couldn't sit down and pay bills, balance my checkbook, or any oher of that "normal" stuff. There's a good book on ADD called "Driven to distraction" by Edward M Hollowell. If you don't want to spend the money, just go to a bookstore and check out page 200 for the diagnostic criteria.
Yes I am actually living off disability at the moment. My parents instilled a strong work ethic in me, so I'm not really proud of it. But that's what the system is there for, to help those of us with medical problems get our lives back together. I don't at all feel like I'm taking advantage of the system - it's just not great for my self-esteem.
I don't know where you live, but here in CA you can collect state disability as long as you have a doctor to sign the forms. You can actutally collect if you are a drug addict in some type of recovery program. My doctor doesn't want me to start working until he feels I'm stable, so he has no problem continuing to sign the forms until he thinks I'm ready.
The first thing you need to do is contact your state disability or employment assistance department and get the application. Easist way to find the number probably is a web search on 'your state' and 'disabilit'. You fill out your personal info (address, ssn, etc) and then give it to a doctor to complete the medical portion and then send it back. Here there's a 7 day waiting period before you can collect. Every so often they send out a supplemental form with your check that the doctor needs to fill out and sign proving you're still disabled.
My advice would be to find a sympathetic doctor who understands that drug addiction is a disease, someone who can also wait until you get your check before he or she gets paid.
Since you are a parent too, there might be extra assistance available from the state or federal government. The trick appears to be find out what's available and whom to contact to apply.
Again, a web search seems the best place to start.I thought it would be a real pain with a lot of standing in long lines. But the process is actually pretty smooth here. You can do everything by mail or phone. I received my first check in about 2 weeks after sending in the application.
I hope that was somewhat helpful.
Best wishes for everything to work out.mike
Posted by Lindsay Rae on December 23, 2003, at 14:10:12
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by squids on December 23, 2003, at 3:04:20
That was so weird, Mike: just as my eyes grazed over the word "disability" in your post, a fleeting commercial came on saying, "If you've been denied disability or SSI benefits, call the law firm of Shmo, Shmo and Shmo..."
That was creepy. Anyway, my doctor situation is complicated, so I'd rather not sum it up on the WWW, but basically, the disability would have to be for my back or a Psychiatric condition, not for addiction. He prescribes Zoloft, but I don't know if that makes him qualified to diagnose my condition since he's a pain mgmt. doctor. I live in FL by the way.
Thanks for your info; it's very frustrating knowing something is wrong with you but not knowing what it is.
Lindsay
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 16:49:22
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » krazybirdlady, posted by Lindsay Rae on December 19, 2003, at 22:35:47
How long have you been taking the methadone? certainly can't taper off all these at once. would taper the methadone first. given what you've been through, would worry about the xanax later. wouldn't worry about the zoloft at all...
Posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:04:32
In reply to To Lindsay..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 16:49:22
To Lindsey
If you want off the methadone, my advice is to get on buprenorphine maintainance, until you are ready to detox completely. At least when I went there they said I could stay on it indefinitely or detox in as little as a week. I did detox after 5years of shooting 1g H/day in 7 days and it was painless. Getting off bup. is much much less unpleasant than getting off methadone, as I'm told.
The Web site below has a physician locator for treatment centers in the country (in and outpatient) You can probably find one in your area. Many are free or rated based on your income.
Good luck,
MikeCONTACT: Leah Young of Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, +1-301-443-8956
Web site: http://www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:13:59
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:04:32
yes Mike, you are absolutely correct...but some people should, and are better for, having some pain (however minute), in withdrawl...
Posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:17:04
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:13:59
You mean if they have an easy withdrawal, they are more likely to go back and use because it was so painless to get off?
mike
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:19:57
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:17:04
no...not at all...just mean that i have read her threads (all of them) and am talking (maybe wrongly) from experience...and didn't mean to anger you...
Posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:22:24
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:19:57
I'm not angry or upset at all, just curious. One of my rehab counsellors said something to the same effect to me.
Peace,
Mike
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:27:50
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:22:24
OK good...i have that effect on people sometimes...peace to you too. yes as a pharmacist in a small community, i have seen it all...and remembered it too. seems that sometimes the harder it is, the more you appreciate it. don't know if that's correct or not, just an observation...having my own demons to conquer, i have been very observant of others in their quests...
Posted by Lindsay Rae on January 3, 2004, at 22:11:25
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by squids on December 26, 2003, at 17:04:32
> To Lindsey
>
> If you want off the methadone, my advice is to get on buprenorphine maintainance, until you are ready to detox completely. At least when I went there they said I could stay on it indefinitely or detox in as little as a week. I did detox after 5years of shooting 1g H/day in 7 days and it was painless. Getting off bup. is much much less unpleasant than getting off methadone, as I'm told.
>
> The Web site below has a physician locator for treatment centers in the country (in and outpatient) You can probably find one in your area. Many are free or rated based on your income.
>
> Good luck,
> Mike
>
> CONTACT: Leah Young of Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, +1-301-443-8956
>
> Web site: http://www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/
>
>
Mike, you're right about Bup, but unfortunately I'm not a prime candidate. Going from H to Bup is ideal. From Methadone, you must be down to at least 30 mg to attempt the switch, and once you take the Bup, the antagonist properties clear the Methadone from the receptors causing instant withdrawal. It's a tricky drug, being a partial agonist. Pharmacists and doctors alike are baffled by this property--no other med is considered a partial agonist. I'm not looking to get off Methadone because I have extensive back problems that would leave me immobile without it. Do you know if Bup is effective for pain as well? Thanks!Lindsay
Posted by Lindsay Rae on January 3, 2004, at 22:24:25
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 26, 2003, at 17:27:50
With all due respect, KBL, I don't think it's necessary for me to feel any unnecessary pain. My Methadone use is not directly related to being a drug addict. About five years ago, I saw an Orthopeodic surgeon because my left leg was going numb, and my lower back was keeping me bedridden. After going over X Rays and MRI results with me, he said, "You have the back of a ninety-year-old." He prescribed Darvocet and Flexeril, which helped with the pain while at the same time unlocking a pleasant feeling I had been searching for since I was a tween. There are people, believe it or not, who are lacking in the natural chemistry that triggers the opiate neurons firing. As I previously stated, I didn't ever take more than one pill at a time, and I was essentially self medicating for depression while also using the pain pills as prescribed for excruciating back pain. I did dabble in the hard stuff for about a month in 2001, right after 9/11. It wasn't normal behavior for me. There are plenty of people who use opiates to feel normal but don't abuse drugs. Methadone is the best option for me because it doesn't cause highs and lows, and it is miraculous for pain. I could have any narcotic painkiller I want, but I choose the one that doesn't make you high. So going through a painful detoxification from the drug is neither humane nor necessary. To wish that upon someone is evil, unless you yourself have no idea what it feels like to withdraw from such a drug. I feel awful most of the day, but I trudge through life without turning to drugs. I wish there wasn't such a negative stigma attached to Methadone.
Lindsay
Posted by krazybirdlady on January 4, 2004, at 18:54:01
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by Lindsay Rae on January 3, 2004, at 22:24:25
sorry for misinterpreting, and i stand corrected. Have you maintained your dose? i certainly do realize what chronic pain can do to a person...
Posted by squids on January 4, 2004, at 18:55:06
In reply to Re: To Lindsay..., posted by Lindsay Rae on January 3, 2004, at 22:11:25
> > To Lindsey
> >
> Mike, you're right about Bup, but unfortunately I'm not a prime candidate. Going from H to Bup is ideal. From Methadone, you must be down to at least 30 mg to attempt the switch, and once you take the Bup, the antagonist properties clear the Methadone from the receptors causing instant withdrawal. It's a tricky drug, being a partial agonist. Pharmacists and doctors alike are baffled by this property--no other med is considered a partial agonist. I'm not looking to get off Methadone because I have extensive back problems that would leave me immobile without it. Do you know if Bup is effective for pain as well? Thanks!I'm not an expert for sure, but I do believe Bup is effective for pain too. Yeah, it's tricky with the mixed ag/antag action. I was told above 1g H/day and I couldn't take it cause it would send me into instant withdrawals. Luckily I managed to get myself down to 1g on my own before going on Bup. Below is a bit of info from some site about Bup for pain. Trade name is Temgesic.
Buprenorphine belongs to a group of medicines called opioids. Opioids mimic the effects of naturally occurring pain reducing chemicals (endorphins). They combine with the opioid receptors in the brain and block the transmission of pain signals.
This preparation is commonly used to relieve pain associated with heart attack, injury, surgery and cancer. Buprenorphine has a lower potential for producing dependence than some other opioid pain relievers and so acts as a useful alternative in opioid dependant people.
Posted by wendy b on January 13, 2004, at 12:24:41
In reply to Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please, posted by krazybirdlady on December 17, 2003, at 12:44:18
Wow, sorry to hear about your kidney stone; I've heard that's a REALLY painful experience. It's neat thay gave you Xanax, but it's perfect for those panic-attack type symptoms like hyperventilating. I am bad with pain - would probably have hyperventilated with a kidney stone, too. And then it's hard for the ER people to treat you when your respiration is compromised, right? Ugh.
I was first prescribed Xanax when I was having all-day panic attacks, sweating all day at work, I mean, sweat POURING down my arms as I'm sitting there at the computer trying to get stuff done. It was PTSD from an abusive relationship. So Xanax got rid of those symptoms completely.
I noticed it slowed me down and sometimes made me tired, so I have also used it at night (one-half mg., usually) when I can't sleep because of racing thoughts or anxiety. I have also used it to calm me down before events or situations that I know are going to be emotionally tough. It helps sooo much. And yes, you could think of it, as you say, as "potent stuff," or just as: It simply WORKS as it's supposed to do. Much safer than Valium. Doctors prescribe it because it's faster-acting, thus good for panic-type symptoms.
Ativan I have had no experience with, but anecdotally, it's supposed to be milder than Xanax. One friend had a p-doc who for some reason would not prescribe Xanax, even though she needed it for PTSD; he'd only give her Ativan, but she desperately needed a quick calm-down med. A lot of docotrs who don't know about psych meds are afraid of benzos, as you probably already know.
Klonopin delivers an all-day type of relief for people who suffer from generalized anxiety. A close friend takes it, and for her, Klonopin is better than the quicker action of Xanax. She gets a "smoother" feeling from it. So it really depends on what symptoms you're trying to treat, and I post so rarely, I don't know your situation.
But I am a total believer in Xanax; I feel safer just having the med around, even though I rarely go through time periods when I need it every day. I ask my doctor for a refill every three months or so (i.e., it takes me three months or more for me to go through 60 1-mg. tabs). So if you're worried about potential addictive qualities, don't (unless you have had real addiction problems in the past). I have been on the same dose for 10 years, and many other reports on PsychoBabble tell the same story.
best wishes, Wendy
> well, just wondering if anyone out there could lend some insight as to a question about the difference in effects. went to ER today for a kidney stone. didn't want narcotics but ended up hyperventilating due to pain, anxiety based, i guess. they gave me Xanax. wow..i really didn't think it was that potent, as i immediately felt relief, and was able to stand the pain with relatively mild narcs (1 oxycodone 5 mg). i remember quite a few years back when my father died, the Doc was good enough to prescribe Ativan for a weeks time to help me sleep. now i thought that was fairly strong because it put me to sleep within 20 mins or so. always believed xanax was shorting acting and not as intense. but personal experience now changes my opinion. any thoughts, personal experience, etc.?? i am now finding that clinical reports and personal experience are two totally different things...Thx...
Posted by lori968 on February 25, 2004, at 12:10:03
In reply to Re: Xanax or Ativan....thoughts please » Lindsay Rae, posted by squids on December 21, 2003, at 0:55:11
I need to know if a doctor prescribes bupenex,need it to detox off fiorinal/codeine no more insurance to cover detox...can anyone help plz tyvm
Posted by Lindsay Rae on February 25, 2004, at 13:03:55
In reply to bupenex, posted by lori968 on February 25, 2004, at 12:10:03
Buprenex is the injectable form of Buprenorphine, and it would make you feel horrible unless you are already sick from withdrawal. A doctor can prescribe Suboxone (Buprenorphine + Naloxone), but you have to find one who is willing to treat you for addiction maintenance. Try this site for more answers:
http://www.readybb.com/nama_wespeakmethadone/
Good Luck!
Lindsay"I need to know if a doctor prescribes bupenex,need it to detox off fiorinal/codeine no more insurance to cover detox...can anyone help plz tyvm"
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