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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Camille Dumont on December 27, 2003, at 20:12:39
The more I twist and turn ideas in my head, the more hopeless it seems.
I've asked myself millions of times "what's the meaning of life?" and come up with no satisfactory answer.
Yet, everybody around me seems to be utterly certain that life is a preferable state to death. How so? How can society as a whole compare something with something else that is totally unknown.
Is the bias "genetically-inherent" as in its built into us to want to live ... and if so, is it possible that mine might be a bit damaged?
If we afford animals (and some people) the dignity of a painless end when they are phisically terminally ill or when their quality of life is almost nil and won't improve, why is it that death must be avoided at all costs when it comes to psychological illness that just won't go away? Why can't we benefit from the same compassion?
And given that I can't find a way to rationalize the fact that life is inherently better than death, isn't normal that if I'm not well I'm looking to the only alternate state to life? If so, why does everybody around me seem to disapprove and / or convince me that they "know better" and that once I'm "cured", somehow I'll "get it" and want to live?
Is there something I don't get? Am I missing a few screws or something?
Posted by Ilene on December 27, 2003, at 23:00:56
In reply to How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Camille Dumont on December 27, 2003, at 20:12:39
> The more I twist and turn ideas in my head, the more hopeless it seems.
>
> I've asked myself millions of times "what's the meaning of life?" and come up with no satisfactory answer.
>There is no answer. It's like asking, "What is the meaning of a fish?" Fish are alive, after all. Forget about the question.
> Yet, everybody around me seems to be utterly certain that life is a preferable state to death. How so? How can society as a whole compare something with something else that is totally unknown.
>Most people enjoy themselves, if not all the time, then often enough so that they have other things with which to occupy themselves than "what is the meaning of life".
About the unknown--read Hamlet's soliloquy.
> Is the bias "genetically-inherent" as in its built into us to want to live ... and if so, is it possible that mine might be a bit damaged?
>Yes, and yes.
> If we afford animals (and some people) the dignity of a painless end when they are phisically terminally ill or when their quality of life is almost nil and won't improve, why is it that death must be avoided at all costs when it comes to psychological illness that just won't go away? Why can't we benefit from the same compassion?
>I'm with you there.
> And given that I can't find a way to rationalize the fact that life is inherently better than death, isn't normal that if I'm not well I'm looking to the only alternate state to life? If so, why does everybody around me seem to disapprove and / or convince me that they "know better" and that once I'm "cured", somehow I'll "get it" and want to live?
I think it's normal. About "getting it": suicidal people are usually depressed, so if you are not depressed you are not likely to be suicidal. It just won't occur to you because you'll be busy with life.
Most people can't accept the thought that someone gets so little from life that ending it is a good idea.
Your social life will improve if you stop talking about it, because people around you will be more comfortable.
> Is there something I don't get? Am I missing a few screws or something?
If you weren't missing a few screws, would you be posting here?
Ilene
Posted by deirdrehbrt on December 28, 2003, at 11:03:01
In reply to How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Camille Dumont on December 27, 2003, at 20:12:39
Camille,
I'm so sorry that you are troubled by these questions now. I know quite well how these things can trouble your mind. I've asked the same questions, many many times. In fact, they concern me even still.I think that the problem with these questions is that they are so consuming and attractive and seductive, especially when we are depressed. We naturally ask these questions, looking for a way out, hoping that the answers will provide release. When we are depressed, we are looking for an answer that will releive us from the pain that we feel. We tend to forget that the pain will go away. It may take a while, but the pain will subside.
The danger of depression is that we don't know when the pain will end, we think it may never end, and we are seduced into acting that way. I fall prey to the same thinking. Even now, I'm in a slump. I know that I don't always feel horible, but I feel terrible, right now. I guess that's where our friends come in, especially the few that we let in close enough to know what we feel, and wheat we need.
I guess that's where my advice lies; allow yourself friends. Allow yourself to feel trusting enough of them to tell them how you really feel. Trust your therapist. Trust him or her enough to tell them the same things that you tell your friends. It's not fair to saddle your friends with things you won't tell your T. (This is a lesson I learned from my best friend.)
I hope that you feel better soon. You WILL feel better. It will happen. Recognize how you feel right now, but know that it won't last forever.
Take care,
Dee.
Posted by Camille Dumont on December 28, 2003, at 16:19:36
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap? » Camille Dumont, posted by deirdrehbrt on December 28, 2003, at 11:03:01
Your post made me think alot. I guess you're right in that they are attractive. Perhaps even moreso because of my academic background and work, I'm an analyst at heart ... I have this need to understand the "how" and "why" of everything.
Its also confusing because I don't know if my thoughts are distorted by the depression or not.
In a way I wouldn't say that I'm in pain per say. Its more like a general non-happyness and non-sadness. Hopefully the former range of feelings will come back. I think its worse not to feel anything than to feel pain and joy in alternance.
In the end I think that perhaps live has no goal because the goal IS life ... that perhaps the fullfillment will come from the process (i.e. doing things) itself. But on the other hand, it seems futile to me to sort of "distract" yourself from important questions ... in a way playing blind.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on December 28, 2003, at 20:53:18
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Camille Dumont on December 28, 2003, at 16:19:36
Camille,
I am an engineer, or rather used to be when I was working. I understand the need to understand all. Right now, I don't know if I'll ever be an engineer again. I'm looking at new possibilities now, for when I will again be able to work.
It is interesting to wonder how much depression distorts your thoughts. The one thing that I know is that it does. It colors almost everything. The trick seems to be to stay aware that it does color things, and when you see the really terrible, to know that it might not be as bad as it looks. That doesn't mean that you can't trust your senses; more that you just need to recognize that things may look worse than they appear.
The definition of pain can include depression. Depression hurts. Depression makes everything that hurts hurt more. Depression can take the joy and comfort out of good things. It is truly a disease. Don't feel bad for being depressed. It is not your fault. You haven't done or not done anything that has made you depressed. It's your brain, which is just another organ in your body that can malfunction. They have medications to fix it. When you find the right one, things get better.
I truly wish you well. You are going through alot right now, and It's not easy. Don't judge yourself for not getting better soon enough. Don't feel guilty for feeling bad. You will get better, in the time it takes to get better. Charging yourself with a deadline won't help.
Be kind to yourself,
Dee.
Posted by Camille Dumont on December 29, 2003, at 0:21:18
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap? » Camille Dumont, posted by Ilene on December 27, 2003, at 23:00:56
> > The more I twist and turn ideas in my head, the more hopeless it seems.
> >
> > I've asked myself millions of times "what's the meaning of life?" and come up with no satisfactory answer.
> >
>
> There is no answer. It's like asking, "What is the meaning of a fish?" Fish are alive, after all. Forget about the question.
>Well, I've prutty much given up on finding an aswer to that although I choose to think that it doesn't mean that there isn't one ... only that I'm not equipped with the right tools to find it at this time.
> > Yet, everybody around me seems to be utterly certain that life is a preferable state to death. How so? How can society as a whole compare something with something else that is totally unknown.
> >
>
> Most people enjoy themselves, if not all the time, then often enough so that they have other things with which to occupy themselves than "what is the meaning of life".
>
> About the unknown--read Hamlet's soliloquy.See, this is where I have a problem with life. So ok being occupied and happy might make you forget about all those questions, but does it make them less important? I mean is it rationally better to simply "distract yourself" while your existence unfolds so as to avoid all those nasty interrogations? Especially since those interrogations concern your existence.
>
> > Is the bias "genetically-inherent" as in its built into us to want to live ... and if so, is it possible that mine might be a bit damaged?
> >
>
> Yes, and yes.
>
> > If we afford animals (and some people) the dignity of a painless end when they are phisically terminally ill or when their quality of life is almost nil and won't improve, why is it that death must be avoided at all costs when it comes to psychological illness that just won't go away? Why can't we benefit from the same compassion?
> >
>
> I'm with you there.
>
> > And given that I can't find a way to rationalize the fact that life is inherently better than death, isn't normal that if I'm not well I'm looking to the only alternate state to life? If so, why does everybody around me seem to disapprove and / or convince me that they "know better" and that once I'm "cured", somehow I'll "get it" and want to live?
>
> I think it's normal. About "getting it": suicidal people are usually depressed, so if you are not depressed you are not likely to be suicidal. It just won't occur to you because you'll be busy with life.
>This is interesting though. Right now I wouldn't say that I'm suicidal. I mean I'm not in a crisis, I don't have things getting at me ... I'm not backed up in a corner with nowhere else to go. I'd say that I'm actually very "neutral" these days and yet death simply refuses to leave my head. Just as another option ... kind of the same level of decision as say, changing career might be.
> Most people can't accept the thought that someone gets so little from life that ending it is a good idea.
>
> Your social life will improve if you stop talking about it, because people around you will be more comfortable.
>When I said "people around me" I meant more healthcare-type people. I don't like to bother friends / family with ideas like that. I get that most likely my thoughts are somehow distorted and so if I told friends they simply might not understand. Plus there is always the rumor mill ... and things you say tend to get totally distorted and exagerated.
> > Is there something I don't get? Am I missing a few screws or something?
>
> If you weren't missing a few screws, would you be posting here?
>Touche ... point taken.
> Ilene
>
Posted by Ilene on December 29, 2003, at 13:40:22
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Camille Dumont on December 29, 2003, at 0:21:18
> > > I've asked myself millions of times "what's the meaning of life?" and come up with no satisfactory answer.
> > >
>
> Well, I've prutty much given up on finding an aswer to that although I choose to think that it doesn't mean that there isn't one ... only that I'm not equipped with the right tools to find it at this time.
>
> See, this is where I have a problem with life. So ok being occupied and happy might make you forget about all those questions, but does it make them less important? I mean is it rationally better to simply "distract yourself" while your existence unfolds so as to avoid all those nasty interrogations? Especially since those interrogations concern your existence.
>I think the "meaning of life" has to do with how we handle what we're given--how we live it, and how we deal with the other people in our lives. Ethics is a big part.
One of the things I struggle with is how depression robs me of control. I can't do much of anything, much less live an examined life. I can do the examining, but I can't do the living.
The distraction aspect seems to be a big part of cognitive-behavioral therapy, which has a respectable track record in treating depression.
> >
> > > And given that I can't find a way to rationalize the fact that life is inherently better than death, isn't normal that if I'm not well I'm looking to the only alternate state to life? If so, why does everybody around me seem to disapprove and / or convince me that they "know better" and that once I'm "cured", somehow I'll "get it" and want to live?
> >Most people in our culture disapprove of suicide. Attitudes vary, esp. in non-Christian societies. (Romans were supposed to fall on their swords, for example rather than be dishonored.) You have to be somewhat iconoclastic to go against 2000 years of religion. (Or depressed.)
Medical people are supposed to save lives, not take them.
I'd hate to be patronized by people who claim they know what's good for me. My current pdoc thought she was going to "cure" me straight away. That was 2 years ago. I think she's stuck with me out of a deep sense of responsibility.
>
> This is interesting though. Right now I wouldn't say that I'm suicidal. I mean I'm not in a crisis, I don't have things getting at me ... I'm not backed up in a corner with nowhere else to go. I'd say that I'm actually very "neutral" these days and yet death simply refuses to leave my head. Just as another option ... kind of the same level of decision as say, changing career might be.
>Just thinking about it is called "suicidal ideation". The pdocs and therapists get more nervous when you tell them you have a plan and the means to carry it out.
I find that years of depression has just worn me down. I don't want any more of the same. I'm supposed to add a new med today, then a full-fledged med change in a few weeks. I'm trying not to think about what's going to happen if it doesn't work.
Ilene
Posted by Camille Dumont on December 29, 2003, at 16:23:38
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Ilene on December 29, 2003, at 13:40:22
> Most people in our culture disapprove of suicide. Attitudes vary, esp. in non-Christian societies. (Romans were supposed to fall on their swords, for example rather than be dishonored.) You have to be somewhat iconoclastic to go against 2000 years of religion. (Or depressed.)
Thats true and it doesn't relly help that I'm totally non-religious ... in belief or action. In many oriental cultures, suicide is viewed as an acceptable mean or avoiding dishonor ... so I guess its only to be expected that our society would still be influenced by religiously-tainted ethics.
>
> Medical people are supposed to save lives, not take them.True enough.
> I'd hate to be patronized by people who claim they know what's good for me. My current pdoc thought she was going to "cure" me straight away. That was 2 years ago. I think she's stuck with me out of a deep sense of responsibility.Unfortunately thats how I feel about my current doctor ... he just doesn't seem to care.
> Just thinking about it is called "suicidal ideation". The pdocs and therapists get more nervous when you tell them you have a plan and the means to carry it out.
This is another strange paradox. I mean if someone IS suicidal and IS planning to do something, why on earth would they tell, given that, from what I understand, they can force you into the hosp.
Years of depression also do not help much as (at least for me) during my dark moods I've done research on methods and you end up finding that if you trully want to die, even the absence of obvious tools (i.e. knives, guns, pills, bridge) are unnecessary. Sometimes I wish I could remove that knowledge from my head.
>
> I find that years of depression has just worn me down. I don't want any more of the same. I'm supposed to add a new med today, then a full-fledged med change in a few weeks. I'm trying not to think about what's going to happen if it doesn't work.
>I can so relate to that and its not like I've had too many meds not work ... (3 as of now) and yet I just feel like giving up all the time ... makes me feel as though its not really worth it ... that I'd rather live with my sick-self than my half-sick-plus-meds self. But then again, after reading my psychiatric evaluation ... which turned out to be very instructive ... I found that apparently I have an avoidant personality ... so wanting to quit just might be me trying to deal with things the same way I've done in the past.
> Ilene
Posted by Ilene on December 29, 2003, at 19:05:19
In reply to Re: How do you escape this mental trap?, posted by Camille Dumont on December 29, 2003, at 16:23:38
> Unfortunately thats how I feel about my current doctor ... he just doesn't seem to care.
>Any chance you can find one who *does* care? Easy to say, I know, and I'm sure it's occurred to you.
> This is another strange paradox. I mean if someone IS suicidal and IS planning to do something, why on earth would they tell, given that, from what I understand, they can force you into the hosp.
>People are ambivalent, and usually kind of, um, unbalanced when seriously suicidal. My only experience with a locked ward was as an outpatient, and it convinced me I never wanted to experience it as an inpatient. I don't talk about the details beyond telling certain people I feel suicidal.
> Years of depression also do not help much as (at least for me) during my dark moods I've done research on methods and you end up finding that if you trully want to die, even the absence of obvious tools (i.e. knives, guns, pills, bridge) are unnecessary. Sometimes I wish I could remove that knowledge from my head.
>You should know that no method is sure-fire, and many can leave you permanently impaired. I met someone who has been a 3-yr-old for decades, after a failed attempt using carbon monoxide.
Ilene
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