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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 55 to 79 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan J on December 22, 2003, at 16:15:16
In reply to Oh, Nevermind, posted by Susan J on December 22, 2003, at 16:10:13
Sorry guys....sorry sorry sorry. I never should have stepped in.
This knucklehead is stepping away from the keyboard....
:-)
Susan
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 22, 2003, at 16:20:40
In reply to Re: what must you think? » Jai Narayan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 9:23:34
<The way if appears to me is he can give advice but he but he can't take it. It's a one way interaction. He can be blunt but I have to be very careful and sweet. I can't be blunt as well.
Jai, if you cannot distinguish between advice and judgment, I would ask that you not speak to me or about me at all.
*Well thanks for the judgement. You have no right to limit my speaking.
< There is no advice in that statement. There is only judgment, i.e. not respectful, not empathetic. I categorically reject that judgment, for a second time.
*that's your right.
< You gave your interpretation of Tabitha's statement, i.e. her seeking of empathy, rather than advice. Again, that is not advice (to me). Instead, it implies that I am failing to heed a component of the posting which can only be inferred. Forgive me for not reading minds.
*that's rude.
> Go back to Tabitha's original posting, which opened this thread. There are specific punctuation marks, which we call question marks, i.e. ? ....do you see them? It is not unreasonable to presume that more than empathy was being sought.
*Sorry Larry.
> I take great care to use descriptive language (e.g. mixed message) rather than judgmental language (e.g. faulty thinking), although it is an art rather than a science to distinguish between the two. Moreover, I am not perfect in its execution, and I am more than happy to try and explain myself more fully if my intent has gone astray (please recall my "playing catch" metaphor). I do not shy away from a topic because it is awkward, but that does not make me blunt. However, there are some individuals for whom bluntness is the only style that effectively communicates my intent.*You are totally rude to me. Clear Larry, so RUDE!
> Have I been blunt enough, Jai?
* no just rude, larry.
> Regards,
*What's the point of redards....huh?
> Lar
Posted by Karen_kay on December 22, 2003, at 16:34:28
In reply to Larry you are so rude., posted by Jai Narayan on December 22, 2003, at 16:20:40
I didn't mean to suggest that Larry wasn't especially supportive. I sincerely apologize to you Larry. I just reread my post. I really didn't realize what I had written. While trying to support Jai, I now see that I wasn't being exactly fair (or nice) to you. I really am sorry!
I'm ducking my head out of this battle, before it's too late (ha!).....
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 18:01:36
In reply to Larry you are so rude., posted by Jai Narayan on December 22, 2003, at 16:20:40
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 18:03:43
In reply to Apology to Larry, posted by Karen_kay on December 22, 2003, at 16:34:28
> I didn't mean to suggest that Larry wasn't especially supportive. I sincerely apologize to you Larry. I just reread my post. I really didn't realize what I had written. While trying to support Jai, I now see that I wasn't being exactly fair (or nice) to you. I really am sorry!
I appreciate the apology, but I honestly feel it is unnecessary. Having pondered your post, I see no offense intended, and none received. Thanks.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 18:08:26
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
> I'm in a weird state. It seems like all my interactions with people are creating miscommunication. A lot of it is text and email like here which I know is notorious for miscommunication, but it's happening in my face to face and phonecalls too. It seems like I can't say anything or hear anything without a misunderstanding happening. My mind is going nuts trying to figure it out-- am I suddenly not seeing things clearly? Is everyone hypersensitive this time of year? It feels like I'm in a strange dream where everything is just a bit skewed.
Hey Tabitha.....remember me?
I'm sorry we didn't click on this subject. I hope we can get past it together. I'm all for a clean slate.....I hope you can do that for me too.
All the best,
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 19:32:09
In reply to Larry you are so rude., posted by Jai Narayan on December 22, 2003, at 16:20:40
First, you insult me by calling me disrespectful, or non-empathetic, or both.
Then, in your next breath, you trivialize the remark by calling it "advice".
Then, you impugn my character by suggesting that I am unable to accept advice.
And you conclude by snipping one line from my post, just one line excluded from your lengthy reply....the one where I quote your insulting remark in the first instance.
And throughout, you have ignored my explanations, and have substituted your impressions as if they are fact, never once considering that we may simply be of different opinions.
And you would call me rude.
Hmmmphh.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 5:28:20
In reply to Re: Larry you are so rude. » Jai Narayan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2003, at 19:32:09
> how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful
>
> tabitha> There's no way I'm going to accept someone else failing to treat *me* with empathy and respect, and failing to acknowldege *my* sincerity, in the guise of reinterpreting my words to imply my own failure in those realms.
>
> Larry Hoover> The way if appears to me is he can give advice but he but he can't take it.
>
> Jai Narayan> I have no doubt he thought he was being helpful. But was it?
>
> The only part that was lacking for me was the empathy...and might I add boundaries. It looks like he stepped on her toes.
>
> Jai Narayan> you are looking at my post with the benefit of hindsight. That's easy, and offers up a false sense of truth and veracity.
>
> Larry Hoover> that's rude.
>
> You are totally rude to me. Clear Larry, so RUDE!
>
> Jai Narayan> you insult me
>
> you trivialize the remark
>
> you impugn my character
>
> your insulting remark
>
> you have ignored my explanations, and have substituted your impressions as if they are fact
>
> Larry HooverPlease, everyone, be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 7:14:55
In reply to Re: please be civil » tabitha » Jai Narayan » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 5:28:20
As for my part in this sad and downward spiraling communication. I will gladly stop and ponder what I thought I was doing. I admit I lost sight of civility. This reminds me of a good luck/ bad luck story. Sorry to all and definately Larry Hoover and Tabitha. I will post no more about this topic and I must say I have to be very soul searching about my communication with Larry Hoover. I am amazed at how badly all that went.
If I ever post to you Larry again it will *only* be supportive, I will *never* try to point anything out again....as I have failed miserably in this attempt. I only ended up hurting Larry which was not my wish.
This is the first board I have ever posted to and I am afraid I am having to learn everything the hard way.
Don't be too nice...don't be to critical....be in the middle. I am walking down that balance beam.Jai Narayan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 23, 2003, at 8:38:20
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 7:14:55
> As for my part in this sad and downward spiraling communication. I will gladly stop and ponder what I thought I was doing. I admit I lost sight of civility. This reminds me of a good luck/ bad luck story. Sorry to all and definately Larry Hoover and Tabitha. I will post no more about this topic and I must say I have to be very soul searching about my communication with Larry Hoover. I am amazed at how badly all that went.
> If I ever post to you Larry again it will *only* be supportive, I will *never* try to point anything out again....as I have failed miserably in this attempt. I only ended up hurting Larry which was not my wish.
> This is the first board I have ever posted to and I am afraid I am having to learn everything the hard way.
> Don't be too nice...don't be to critical....be in the middle. I am walking down that balance beam.
>
> Jai NarayanI'm thinking you still don't understand what got under my skin so much....
Look at each message again, please, those between us....
You will not see me saying anything about you, in the sense of you're doing this wrong or that wrong. I'm saying please don't use judgmental language on me.
The problems we have are the result of you saying, in so many words, what I'm doing wrong.
That is a boundary violation. I do not like having words put in my mouth, or being told my motives are not up to snuff, or generally being told how I don't measure up. And, I spent some time rejecting those ideas. But I did not label you in the process.
Frankly, I think the good doctor is off the mark in his determination of what is civil. I don't think mentioning an unpleasant topic is inherently incivil, e.g. using the word insult. However, I digress.....
It's fine to believe something very different from another poster, and to express that difference in belief or opinion, but it needs to come in the form of "I statements"....e.g. "When I see a posting like Tabitha's, I think she would be looking for empathy, not advice." Contrast that sentence with what you said to me.
Despite whatever you might think about me, I put a lot into every post I send (except those where I'm being goofy, and I think those are obvious). I carefully select every word, and sometimes I'm feeling literal fear when I hit the send button.....not because I'm afraid I'll be taken wrong, or might say the wrong thing, but because I've put so much of me into it. You used the phrase "pearls of wisdom"....just as a thematic concept.
I got this in an email yesterday.
"Oh, another thing - I can't imagine a greater gift than 'being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.' How often does someone make the effort to invest that much thought in someone else? That's one thing I really appreciate about your posts. I don't know why you're giving it away, but I'm happy to receive."
If I didn't get messages like that once in a while, I just wouldn't bother any more.
To be replied to in a manner that directly or indirectly suggests I'm have not been e.g. empathetic in my reply....sorry. I will not accept that. Disagree with my thoughts all you want, but don't attack the person behind them. I welcome debate about my ideas, but I will not debate who I am, or what my motives are.
Use I statements. Give examples from your life. Let people take from your message what they wish to take.
I erroneously thought Tabitha was receptive to having ideas about her problem suggested to her. That's how I read her message. Apparently, she was not, and I would not otherwise have addressed ideas in her world. I'm sorry, Tab.
I am not adverse to having people comment about my personal realm. But you should wait for an invite to do so. I literally did that, in this thread. See: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031217/msgs/292078.html
I'm not hypersensitive about my boundaries, but I am very clear on what they are. Sometimes I need to say things about them to make my point. With other people, I never have to say a thing.
I also tried to make the distinction between descriptive language and judgmental language. It's not a moot point to make. I appreciate people describing me and my interactions in descriptive language. That's feedback. But when the words have emotional content, when *I'm* being labelled, expect a reaction. Criticize my ideas, but don't criticize me.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 9:39:49
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 7:14:55
> As for my part in this sad and downward spiraling communication. I will gladly stop and ponder what I thought I was doing.
Thanks.
> If I ever post to you Larry again it will *only* be supportive
OK, but just to clarify, regarding:
> > Jai, if you cannot distinguish between advice and judgment, I would ask that you not speak to me or about me at all.
>
> You have no right to limit my speaking.I don't want people to feel harassed or pressured here, so they may in fact ask others not to post to them. Since his statement was conditional, however, I'm not considering him to have done that in this case.
But posting *about* someone is different than posting *to* them, and as long as the post is civil, I think I'd still consider that OK.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 9:40:50
In reply to Re: the nature of the problem » Jai Narayan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 23, 2003, at 8:38:20
> The problems we have are the result of you saying, in so many words, what I'm doing wrong... That is a boundary violation.
>
> I erroneously thought Tabitha was receptive to having ideas about her problem suggested to her... Apparently, she was notPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Sorry, but I've already asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 15:47:32
In reply to Re: downward spiraling communication, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 9:39:49
> OK, but just to clarify, regarding:
> I don't want people to feel harassed or pressured here, so they may in fact ask others not to post to them. Since his statement was conditional, however, I'm not considering him to have done that in this case.
>
You're right, I don't want him to feel harassed either. I can't believe all that has come from this? I sure thought I knew how to communicate. Life is so challenging, I am just plain tired.
> But posting *about* someone is different than posting *to* them, and as long as the post is civil, I think I'd still consider that OK.
>
I need a hug.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 16:39:20
In reply to Re: downward spiraling communication, posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 15:47:32
Posted by stjames on December 23, 2003, at 20:16:59
In reply to Re: downward spiraling communication, posted by Jai Narayan on December 23, 2003, at 15:47:32
> I need a hug.
That is not all you need.
Posted by tealady on December 24, 2003, at 1:56:37
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
Tabitha,
Personally, as I said in a previous post I value
"...Someone to not only listen ..but also someone to communicate with me and share their thoughts on the matter. This is a far bigger ask than just wanting people to agree with you or give you some sympathy, ..probably why it is hard to find.
But to me this is far more valuable.. "Lar said..." I put a lot into every post I send ...(except those where I'm being goofy, and I think those are obvious). I carefully select every word, and sometimes I'm feeling literal fear when I hit the send button.....not because I'm afraid I'll be taken wrong, or might say the wrong thing, but because I've put so much of me into it. "
That is what I have really value..someone replying with their as carefully considered thoughts..as I said above.."this is a far bigger ask".....especially when they make the effort to carefully select their words and use descriptive language in expressing their thoughts
Tabitha you said to me
" Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift?
Tabitha ..I can only say thanks for the wonderful gift. I would value any reply to me that which was written with so much care and thought. Lar's replies always have some special quality ..probably as Lar appears, from his posts, to be not only intelligent, but considerate and caring. It is also obvious he puts a lot of thought and a lot of himself into his posts.
I strongly agree with what Lar received in the email
"How often does someone make the effort to invest that much thought in someone else? That's one thing I really appreciate about your posts."Tabitha, I sincerely hope you can put any misinterpretation by me too behind you. ..this is just how I think, how I would wish for someone to respond to me.
Jan
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 8:32:32
In reply to Re: downward spiraling communication, posted by stjames on December 23, 2003, at 20:16:59
> > I need a hug.
> That is not all you need.**So tell me are you being kind & supportive or critical? It sounds rude... but I don't want to jump to conclusions.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2003, at 9:43:12
In reply to what does that mean?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 8:32:32
> > I need a hug.
>
> That is not all you need.
>
> stjames> It sounds rude...
>
> Jai NarayanPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by tabitha on December 24, 2003, at 16:56:37
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?tabitha, posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 11:00:09
Posted by tabitha on December 24, 2003, at 17:10:35
In reply to what must you think of all of this?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 19:39:34
I was thinking I needed a little self-imposed break from the whole thread. You actually summed up pretty well where I was coming from, in your earlier post to Larry. Thanks for the empathy.
Posted by tabitha on December 24, 2003, at 17:14:28
In reply to Crampy Remuneration » tabitha, posted by Susan J on December 22, 2003, at 16:07:33
> It is easier to forgive an enemy than to forgive a friend. ~William Blake
I'm going to take that as a very thoughtful & loving remark. Thanks Susan.
>
> Please don't make me quote Rodney King. :-)This one went right past me.
>
> I love all you guys.
>
> S.(((Susan)))
Posted by tabitha on December 24, 2003, at 17:21:08
In reply to Re: Rampant crabby masses?, posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 1:02:50
> Its awful. But it does end. Not quickly enough, but it does end.
>
Thanks Gabbi.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 24, 2003, at 18:34:25
In reply to Re: what must you think of all of this? » Jai Narayan, posted by tabitha on December 24, 2003, at 17:10:35
> I was thinking I needed a little self-imposed break from the whole thread.
<boy I can understand that need.
> You actually summed up pretty well where I was coming from, in your earlier post to Larry.
<thanks, I was beginning to think I was off the wall. My life at home is so stressed. I have many too many challenges: just on my time and energy not to mention my emotions right now. But this thread, this has been over the top. I am exhausted.
Thank you Tabitha from the depths of my heart and soul. You are a special person.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2003, at 9:47:50
In reply to Re: downward spiraling communication, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 9:39:49
> I don't want people to feel harassed or pressured here, so they may in fact ask others not to post to them. Since his statement was conditional, however, I'm not considering him to have done that in this case.
>
> BobIt's unconditional now.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/295057.html
Lar
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 31, 2003, at 18:28:17
In reply to Re: Jai, please do not post to me » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2003, at 9:47:50
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