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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sienna on March 11, 2003, at 15:09:43
I am a horrible person, guilty of horrible things. Alone and sad and terrible. Ugly stupid boring. Lazy unproductive needy. undisciplined always late messy.
I am amazing smart funny interesting kind pretty a good friend.
or is it both.
Posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2003, at 15:13:01
In reply to which is it?, posted by sienna on March 11, 2003, at 15:09:43
It's both, but it's usually the better stuff. We are far harder on ourselves than others are, than we need to be, and than is for our own good.
beardy
Posted by sienna on March 11, 2003, at 16:23:56
In reply to tough question » sienna, posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2003, at 15:13:01
thanks for writing.
its just that I FEEL horrible and worthless, but at the same time people like me and i dont know why. and i know that im not stupid but i dont know why i cant make it in this world and i know that soon everything is going to come crashing down and it has to be because im horrible and worthless and cant take care of myslef. so i must not be smart and good. i dont know i am just confused.
Posted by mair on March 11, 2003, at 16:45:07
In reply to Re: tough question, posted by sienna on March 11, 2003, at 16:23:56
I think the answer here is that what you're describing (the feelings of worthlessness and stupidity) are symptoms, not personality traits. People like you because they realize that your symptoms are just that, but they are not you. Also, the fact that you may have trouble taking care of yourself has nothing to do with being stupid or horrible or worthless or any other awful adjective you might want to apply. You're a person with a disease; you are not the disease and it doesn't define you.
Your question is legitimate for some of us because I think my more objectionable qualities exist wholly independent of depression, and I can have a very subjective dislike of myself in the same way that you might not like your neighbor, for instance. I don't look at it as being hard on myself; just a realistic appraisal. Other people may see me differently, but I am, afterall, with me all the time.
Posted by paxvox on March 11, 2003, at 18:27:56
In reply to which is it?, posted by sienna on March 11, 2003, at 15:09:43
Ying Yang I think. On the one hand, you have some poor self-perceived deficiencies. While on the other hand, you realize that you also have some outstanding qualities that are validated by others (therefore,not just YOUR opinion). So my question would be: do you have objective validation of you being a worthless dirtball? Hmmmmmmm? Me thinks probably not. Either way. We have our good parts and our bad parts (no matter WHO we are, or how we rate ourselves). There IS a balance. Work on improving how you feel about YOU by seeking some other opinions for validation. May be that you are being too hard on yourself. Happens to all of us. Tell me where it hurts. What makes you feel you are such a miserable person?
PAX
Posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 18:20:43
In reply to Re: tough question, posted by mair on March 11, 2003, at 16:45:07
Hi Mair,
thanks. I think I am just freaking out. It is very confusing too though. Its hard not to see things in black and white sometimes. Like i am either a horrible despicable person or I am a really nice sweet smart funny wonderful person. Im just a mess right now. Thanks for writing.
Sienna
> I think the answer here is that what you're describing (the feelings of worthlessness and stupidity) are symptoms, not personality traits. People like you because they realize that your symptoms are just that, but they are not you. Also, the fact that you may have trouble taking care of yourself has nothing to do with being stupid or horrible or worthless or any other awful adjective you might want to apply. You're a person with a disease; you are not the disease and it doesn't define you.
>
> Your question is legitimate for some of us because I think my more objectionable qualities exist wholly independent of depression, and I can have a very subjective dislike of myself in the same way that you might not like your neighbor, for instance. I don't look at it as being hard on myself; just a realistic appraisal. Other people may see me differently, but I am, afterall, with me all the time.
Posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 18:25:34
In reply to Re: which is it?, posted by paxvox on March 11, 2003, at 18:27:56
You are right pax there is no validation that i am a worthless idiot. Im sure i am being too hard on myself. I know that intellectually but emotionally i feel that im not being hard enough. I don tknow why i feel like i am so horrible. Abuse from years past? Seems like a long time ago. i mean i have good friends and people love me even if I do think they are just being nice. I guess its just hard. I feel worthless because I am unproductive. It takes so much energy to do the smallest things.
My best friend tidies up my house becuase she feels bad for me im so disorganized. i put clothes in the washer and realize three days later that they never make it to the dryer. I study for hours and hours for a test do thousands of math problems, know the material backwards and forwards and then get a B because i dont read the questions right.
I could sit and play computer games for hours or read the boards or watch movies. Anythign to escape from real life. Im a coward.
Sienna
lf. Happens to all of us. Tell me where it hurts. What makes you feel you are such a miserable person?
>
>
> PAX
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2003, at 19:06:41
In reply to Re: which is it?, posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 18:25:34
Well, Sienna, you sound perfectly normal to me. lol. It's the rest of the world that's off. I almost always have to run my clothes through twice because they get mildewy waiting for me to move them along to the dryer. :)
And there are times when doing anything feels like slogging through quicksand. Don't be so hard on yourself. When you get the proper mix of meds and/or therapy you'll be amazed by how your "laziness" disappears.
Posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 20:05:02
In reply to Re: which is it? » sienna, posted by Dinah on March 12, 2003, at 19:06:41
Hi Dinah,
Thanks for tha reassurance. I hope your migraine goes away. I feel like Im pretending to be an adult. Is there a age where you finally feel grown up? Or is it always watching people buy houses and talk about the stock market and wonder when you will ever have a *real* job. Well i dont even have a fake job right now im on disability, but it runs out in
may.I guess i am not so different from many people though i feel like i am so alone in my head. I feel like im an alien from outer space. like people cant understand me. Luckily i live with a bunch of artists in a compound and most of them are nutso too. I dont nkowhwat i would do if i had to move. Im isolated enough even though all my friends live here.
Also its like i want to believe that i can finish college and graduate school, but what am i studying>? hehe Psychology to go into that or psychiatry and how am i going to do that when i am a hallucinating paranoid depressed nonsense speaking mess? I dont know what is going to happen to me when my last and final plan B doesnt work out. I feel that the end is near.
Sienna
Posted by Dinah on March 12, 2003, at 21:42:11
In reply to Thanks Dinah, posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 20:05:02
Hi Sienna,
It's funny that you should mention what you said about being a grown up. I just recently posted a thread about absolutely positively refusing to grow up.
But Sienna, what's this about a last and final plan? Few plans are worth putting all your hopes in. Hopes need to be spread out a bit. What's going on with you? Would you be comfortable talking about any of it? I hate to see you at that desperate state. Perhaps all our many heads can come together to think of some additional hopes for you.
Posted by Kar on March 12, 2003, at 22:37:31
In reply to Thanks Dinah, posted by sienna on March 12, 2003, at 20:05:02
Sienna- Mair's so right. So much of what you're feeling (and what numbers of us have felt) is a function of your illness. I understand that feeling that you're being too hard on yourself- I've known it too but can't seem to change the way I feel. Sure when I'm not depressed I feel that way to some extent too, but I can also see much more of the good things. Helps you put it in perspective. I don't know if you've been going back and forth or are mostly stuck in a depression. But (and I'm not getting touchy-feely here) I've found that it's really good to write stuff down. Esp. when I'm good. Then I can read it when I'm way down in the pit and see how it was and will be again.
>have good friends and people love me even if I do think they are just being nice.
A very good friend of mine, upon hearing me say something similar, asked me, "When you feel good do you think that?"...my answer was no. It doesn't always help, but it helps give you a tad of reassurance.>I feel worthless because I am unproductive.
Ditto.>It takes so much energy to do the smallest things.
Ditto again.>get a B because i dont read the questions right.
Ouch! You are hard on yourself, girl! I know that telling you so doesn't help though. i know so well how horrid it feels to know that you can accomplish so much more...and have. It's like reaching for that carrot. All the time. And instead of living up to your potential, you're just working desperately to keep your head above water. So when you knock yourself for only getting a "B", i can understand it.> I guess i am not so different from many people
Wow- i wish I had such insight! And good for you to be able to even see that when you feel so crappy.>i am so alone in my head.
Kind of like you're hovering over your body, watching yourself go through the motions?i am on disability too. i haven't been able to work for 2 years. And it feels so shi**y. It's hard not to define ourselves by what we have accomplished (working, having a job, etc)instead of who we are...what we've done for others...
>depressed nonsense speaking mess?
It took me a long time to get through college and grad school. Hell, and high school too. It can be done. And once you're on the right track, it will be. if that's what you want.Take care and keep us posted. We care about you here...
karen
Posted by bozeman on March 14, 2003, at 0:16:45
In reply to Thinking of you » sienna, posted by Kar on March 12, 2003, at 22:37:31
Many good, kind, accurate words spoken here by others who care about you. Agree with all of it.
(please tell me if this sounds familiar)
I have spent my entire life walking around feeling like a phony, like I was "pretending" to be grown up and capable, while inside I was screaming or curled up into a ball. Like every minute of every day, I was driven to prove myself, to "earn" the air I breathed, that I was capable of doing a good thing, capable of earning my "keep" so to speak. Prove myself to WHO, I can't tell you, but I remember the feeling as early as two years old, so basically I have been that way my entire life.The last few days is the first time I have EVER not felt that "sword" hanging over me, of needing to prove my worth in order to be worthy of anything. And guess what, it was biochemical!!! Not real and objective, but a biochemical imbalance! I needed lithium, and who would have guessed? Never, ever to my knowledge have I been diagnosed as anything remotely approaching bipolar. Maybe lithium works for other things too (mood stabilizer, maybe? nerve tissue regenerator, definitely) but I didn't know it.
My point is, your feelings are VERY real, but don't accept them as a judgement of who you ARE. They are just feelings, and yes, I know how silly that might sound to say *just* feelings. I'm saying they don't define you, even though you experience them to the core of your being.
Your feelings are not literal accurate judgements of you and your life, they are just a constantly moving pool of emotions. Period. I pray that you can find a way to be more at peace with the constantly moving flow of them so you don't experience such a downer with them.
Hope that made sense. Peace and hugs,
bozeman
Posted by sienna on March 15, 2003, at 21:13:18
In reply to Re: Sienna, posted by Dinah on March 12, 2003, at 21:42:11
Hi Dinah,
Yeah i always feel like a kid and everyone things im way younger than i am. and I feel soooo young and helpless.My last and final plan is just that. I don tknow how to take care of myself and have failed miserably off and on for as long as ive been alive. And im on temporary disability that ends soon well in may adn hopefully ill find an summer job that isnt too stressful, but im scared to death. And if I cant make it this time then i will just die. I dont want to and I hope it doesnt happen. but i know its the truth. i dont know how anyone really survives.
I dont really believe that im going to make it. I keep living and enjoying what i can, but theres no part of me that believes im going to make it to age 30. (Im 28 right now). I just dont feel like I can handle anything and I dont know how to learn how. IM scared of everything and everyone. Im unstable. I dont want to die.
but i dont know how to fix it.Sienna
Posted by sienna on March 15, 2003, at 21:19:34
In reply to Thinking of you » sienna, posted by Kar on March 12, 2003, at 22:37:31
Hi Kar,
I know i am sick. I cant get well. I ve tried so much. I am horrible and doctors are frustrated with me. I am cant even remember how mcuh medicine to tkae. like he will raise the dose then a few days later i forget and take the old amount and then when i go see him im like upset and saying im not better and i am taking mor ethen he asks how much am i taking and somehow its the same as before it got increased. Im sinking.
I know there are good things about me and my friends love me, but the good doesnt outweigh the bad. I feel like i am worthless and bad and a burden because i am more bad than good. I dont believe that my being here for a long time will resullt in anything good. I will just waste food and water and shelter because I wont be able to do anything that is good. i guess im not makeing sense. i just feel this way. The end is soon. There is peace because it isnt now, its almost surreal or something it feels so far away like it will never be, but i know the reality is that it is so close almost here and its as real as anythign you can touch.
you are right is very hard not to work. I hope that there is something that i can do soon that will be ok. I hope that somehow this will work out. but i dont feel very hopeful.
sienna
Posted by sienna on March 15, 2003, at 21:27:47
In reply to Sienna, posted by bozeman on March 14, 2003, at 0:16:45
Hi
i do know what you mean and i do feel that way. I apperciate you taking the time to write to me. I need to hear those things. Im sure that is biochemical you are right. I just as much as i think that it can be that the feelings are real and i know i am sick but i think i am horrible too and that they are both are real. I cant say all the thigns i really believe because i just get labeled but the drugs dont help and they just chantge them all the time adding this subteacting this take more of this. I only felt better with zoloft but i think could take more but i cant because whne i did becofore i got more psychotic and so i cant have anymore.
but im afraid of all of this. part of me wish that i was never born but that is so sad and i really dont wish that but part of me does. How can you feel two totally different ways all the time. All the time i have this dichotomy? love hate bad good smart stupid creative not boring interesting im so tired i just cant do it much longer. and it feels like it will be such a sad but relief and i wont be scared anymore.
sienna
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2003, at 5:29:11
In reply to Re: Sienna, posted by sienna on March 15, 2003, at 21:13:18
I don't think it's unusual to have that dichotomy in feeling in this illness. Perhaps it's a sign that you haven't given in to it completely. And please don't.
All the things you are talking about can be fixed. I doubt it's helpful to yourself to give yourself artificial deadlines as to when they need to be fixed. Although I must confess to doing that sometimes myself. But my therapist always says it isn't helpful. :)
There are answers out there, and you shouldn't give up on trying to find them. That's what I meant about needing to spread hope out a bit. 28 is too young to decide it will never get better. There are still too many possibilities.
Do you have a therapist? I find mine invaluable in uncurling my torturous loop of thinking. And before you give up, there are many more med combinations to try. If you have trouble with med changes, there are ways your pdoc should be able to help you with that.
I know how comforting and seductive it is to consider suicide as a means of escape. A fantasy of escape even. Phil once wrote me a very wise post about just taking that option off the table. I haven't yet been quite able to do that, but I think of the post often.
Remember that to a large extent the hopelessness is a pesky symptom of this pernicious disease. Don't let it beat you.
Posted by sienna on March 16, 2003, at 12:49:41
In reply to Re: Sienna, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2003, at 5:29:11
Hi Dinah,
thanks so much for writing. i do have therapist, but i dont say a lot in there. I see her every two weeks. Its not like real therapy where you go ever week for an hour. Its more like an extended med visit but we go over what im doing in my life and if i need help with anything.
Im not giving in right now. I cant say what will happen in the future because no one really know s what will happen.I am not sure what else to say. I know youy are right on all those points. It all just seems so far away from me though. Like in theory it all makes sense, but i just dont really believe i am fixable.
sienna
This is the end of the thread.
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