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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
Hi,
I have a friend that I'm not sure I want to be friends with anymore. After what I've been through though (with being Bipolar), I feel like a bad person for dumping her as a friend. Friends are supposed to support each other even through the hard times. I wanted to hear other people's opinions on this.
She's been my friend for 6 years now and she can be a very good person, but she also can be very manipulative and a lyar to try to get what she wants or to make you feel sorry for her. As far as I know, she does not have any form of mental illness.
She has a 9 year old child and has not held down any kind of job for longer than a couple of months since I've known her. Most of the time she doesn't work at all. She has every excuse in the book not to work. At first it was because daycare was too expensive, then it was this, then it was that, now it's because she has a problem with her hip. She has pins in it now that she was supposed to get removed 2 years ago. It has made her hip even worse because they are still in there and honestly, I think she hasn't gotten them removed so she can keep having an excuse to not work. She lives off other people (right now living with her mom). She does nothing to help herself and blames everything bad in her life on other people. I have really lost all respect for her.
She married someone last year after knowing him for 4 months. Within a year, he left her, but they were still talking. A couple of weeks ago, she told me she was pregnant. A couple of days later she told me she was thinking of having an abortion. Now, just a couple of nights ago, she told me she had a miscarriage on her birthday (which was the same day she told me she was pregnant). So, for 2 weeks now she has been lying to me about being pregnant and telling me she was thinking of having an abortion when she already had a miscarriage (?). Honestly, I don't even think she ever was pregnant, I think she just made it up to try to get her husband back.
Anyway, I know she is going through hard times, but really, what is the point of being friends with someone if it you are not even going to be honest with them. I've dealt with this from her for 6 years now and have tried to tell her I don't like the lying. You know, if she doesn't want to tell me certain things, she doesn't have to, but don't make things up.
What's your opinion on this? Is it bad of me to just tell her I don't want to be friends with her anymore? Or do you think I should stick by her and try to help her out? In my opinion, you can't help someone who doesn't help themself and she doesn't seem to do that. She just wants to keep having pity parties for herself. Also, if your opinion is to not be friends with her anymore - how far into it do I go into explaining why? Should I just lay it all out about how I feel about the last 6 years or say as little as possible to not hurt her feelings?
If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading : ) Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Krysti
Posted by Rach on December 7, 2002, at 19:26:02
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
It's a hard one. Be loyal to a friendship of 6 years, or walk away?
Is there an inbetween option you could attempt first? Like maybe talk to her - even print out your post and give it to her if you think you may get tangled trying to explain your position to her. Tell her that you are sick of the lying and manipulation. Tell her that you want to remain her friend, but that she makes it so difficult with all her deception. Tell her that you want to help her, but you can't until she realises she has a problem and wants to help herself. Perhaps she isn't even acutely aware of how manipulating she is, or that you have a problem.
I doubt that she will change immediately. It will probably be a long process where she makes mistakes and reverts to her old ways. But maybe it will be enough to keep the friendship intact.
One thing I see, though, is that you can't do nothing. You cannot remain friends with her while she remains as she is. My belief is that you should explain everything to her. It will give her a chance to change and save the friendship. If not, at least she knows where you stand and that you didn't quit the friendship on a whim. If she makes no attempt to change, or admit she has a problem, then I say walk away. Very hard to do, I know, but surely you have enough on ytour plate with BP without the added burden of a 'friend' who isn't truly a friend.
Sorry for the ramble! Hope that made some sense.
Rachael
Posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 20:06:24
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
Hi Krysti,
> I have a friend that I'm not sure I want to be friends with anymore.
....OK, this is only as difficult as you want it to be. To quote (the late) Ann Landers: "Are you better with her or without her?"
By your own admission, she is a liar, manipulative, incapable of holding a job, and in denial of her own problems.
In my opinion, dump her. You can *certainly* do better.
Ted
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 20:11:46
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 20:06:24
Ted,
You should be an advice columnist : )
Do you think I should tell her exactly why?
Krysti
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 20:20:28
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Rach on December 7, 2002, at 19:26:02
Hi Rach,
Thanks for your post. I have already tried to tell her in the past. I guess she either doesn't want to change or doesn't have it in her. The hard part about is she is a good friend when you need her.
But, really I guess the bottom line is I have lost all respect for her. I don't think I could be a good friend to her anymore if I tried. She wants a friend who will feel sorry for her and I just don't have it in me anymore. You can only feel bad for someone for so long who doesn't do anything to help themselves. Six years is a ridiculously long time to not even try.
I guess I just wanted some support from other people so I don't feel bad about it.
Thanks : )
Krysti
Posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:01:21
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Ted, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 20:11:46
Krysti,
> You should be an advice columnist : )
Now, don't start that! :-)
> Do you think I should tell her exactly why?
First, you needn't say anything. You are not dumping anyone. Just slowly distance yourself. Turn down invitations, make yourself "too busy" when she telephones, etc. At no time call her or invite her to any engagement. Eventually she will get the hint.
Ted
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:09:05
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:01:21
Hi Ted,
That's what someone else told me. Is that really the best thing though? I have a different philosophy. I hate it when people just blow me off. I'd rather know why (sometimes - depends on what they're going to say I guess, lol).
I also have this need to "fix" everyone. If I tell her why, maybe it will wake her up and she will face her problems.
What do you think, Mr. Advice Columnist??? Don't let it go to your head : )
Krysti
Posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:30:30
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Ted, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:09:05
Krysti,
> That's what someone else told me. Is that really the best thing though?
Brilliant minds think alike. :-)
>I have a different philosophy. I hate it when
>people just blow me off. I'd rather know whyOK. Let her ask. Don't volunteer your feelings, let them be queried. You will look less selfish and I think it is more polite. Not to mention that she is less likely to punch you. :-)
> I also have this need to "fix" everyone. If I
> tell her why, maybe it will wake her up and she
> will face her problems.You think she can't "see" her own problems? "Earth to Krysti" She is in denial. She knows what's up, she does not care. When (if) she asks, tell her then, but not before.
> What do you think, Mr. Advice Columnist???
> Don't let it go to your head : )Heaven forbid. I have bipolar disorder too. My head is already too messed up. :-)
Ted
Posted by ShelliR on December 7, 2002, at 22:36:13
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
Kristi,
If you decide to get out of the relationship (and that's where it seems like you're heading), take the high route. Try not to go back and dump eight years of blame on her before exiting. (You've gone over these things with her, and she won't/can't change). If possible, leave gently; don't slam the door. It might be possible to her to change, but I wouldn't count on it.
I went through a period of my life when I made friends with a lot of people from my support group of people with dissociative disorders. Many of them also had developed borderline personality disorders and although I understood, it became too hard for me to handle all the anger and manipulation. Once I let go, I really had no desire to reconnect, although it was scarey for me to start initiating friendships with "regular" people with normal problems. In some sense I had felt safer, though totally unsatisfied, with my friends who navigated the world much worse than I did. If that makes any sense?
Shelli
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:37:23
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:30:30
Okay, good advice again : )
So, to a fellow bipolar -
When were you diagnosed? Are you more on the manic side or depressive side? What meds are you taking? Are they working for you? (If you don't mind answering)
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:50:57
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by ShelliR on December 7, 2002, at 22:36:13
Hi Shelli,
Yes, I guess that does make sense. I guess I was thinking not telling her would be taking the easy way out, but now you've offered a different perspective. I've always had the "fixing people" disorder, but some people don't want to be fixed. And I guess trying to fix people is a selfish thing, I'm probably doing it to make myself feel good like I'm doing the "right" thing. As Ted pointed out earlier, I'm sure she knows what her own problems are, she's just denying it to herself. And as you pointed out, although I hadn't thought of it that way, I would just be blaming her for not wanting to be friends with her anymore. I'm really glad I decided to post this. It's nice to get a different perspective on things.
I don't really know how I'm going to exactly handle it when/if she calls me again - it's kind of hard to say to someone "I don't want to be your friend anymore", but I will definitely keep what you guys have said in mind. I think I will probably just tell her I can't keep going on like this. My idea and her idea of a friendship is different. That's a good start anyway.
Thanks for your post : )
Krysti
Posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:53:30
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Ted, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:37:23
Hi Krysti,
> Okay, good advice again : )
thanks. :-)
> So, to a fellow bipolar -
Lots of us around these parts....
> When were you diagnosed?
Officially, may 1999. I "knew" I was bipolar since about 1976, when I was in highschool. I had symptoms as early as age around 9.
>Are you more on the manic side or depressive side?
Depressed, seemingly permanently. My only adventure with real mania was when I was hospitalized in 1999.
>What meds are you taking?
Depakote 1500 mg / day
Wellbutrin SR 300 mg / day
Zoloft 100 mg / day
ambien and lorazepam as needed (infrequent).>Are they working for you? (If you don't mind answering)
Well, I got this far, so I guess I don't mind answering. :-) The depakote dose was too low at 1000 mg for 3 years until last summer when I suggested to my pdoc that it should be raised; he agreed. So the depakote really helps with "unsettled" or "moody" or "agitated" feelings (that was my wife's biggest complaint prior to medication). The wellbutrin/zoloft mix definitely helps fight depression, but just doesn't do the trick. I need the zoloft because I also have OCD and it really helps with that. I tried lexapro instead of zoloft and it was a total disaster: Neither antidepressent nor anti-OCD properties at all. It was when I went off zoloft to try the lexapro that I noticed the depakote dose was too low; I was taking too much zoloft prior (200 mg) and it was masking everything else. So now I take less zoloft and more depakote and things are a bit better.
How about you?
Ted
Posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 23:16:31
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Ted on December 7, 2002, at 22:53:30
> When were you diagnosed?
About six months ago. Up till then, I thought it was just anxiety. Before then, had no idea what "mental illness" or anxiety even was. I definitely would have never in a million years thought this would happen to me.
>Are you more on the manic side or depressive side?
I've definitely had some depression in my life, but never for too long at at time. Didn't really think much of it, just thought it was normal. I remember my longest episode at age 22, my mom told me it could be an actual disorder. I didn't believe it at the time, just though I was being "weak".
For the past six years, since the anxiety started, I was more on the hypomanic side. I would go through cycling, but the depression was never severe. Just more of a withdrawal phase, didn't want to talk to anyone or do anything. With the hypomania though I definitely recognized the difference in my personality. I thought it was strange, but I had gotten a new job that I really liked and just attributed it to that. Then, I FINALLY went on medication (Paxil) for my anxiety and ended up becoming manic. Had a night of being delusional too. That was really weird. I realized it a couple of days later when I was at work - what I had been thinking - and went to my MD. He made an emergency appt with a pdoc. That was how I was diagnosed finally.
>What meds are you taking?
Since I've been on mood stabilizers, I have tried Depakote and Gabitril. Both of them ended up making me depressed. I'm now on Trileptal, which I've been on for 3 weeks. So far, so good, but I know to give myself at least a couple of months before thinking I've found the one! I really hope this works for me though. I've got a great job and work for great people. They've been very very understanding thus far and I'd hate to ruin it in the long run by having to keep trying new meds and taking days off in the process when they don't pan out well.
So, what is the OCD like? I used to wonder sometimes if I had that myself.
Krysti
Posted by Ted on December 8, 2002, at 0:39:23
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Ted, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 23:16:31
Krysti,
BTW: My bipolar mania also started with AD prescription: I was given zoloft and it pushed me to mania, then rapid cycling: mania followed by suicidal depression, then back to mania with two-day cycles for a total of 3 cycles (6 days). That is when my wife called my pdoc and took me to the hospital. Good thing. :-)
> So, what is the OCD like? I used to wonder sometimes if I had that myself.
You do stuff that is habitual to an extreme, and you know you have a problem (it is concious) but you can't control it. Everyone is a little different with their own OCD. For most people, it is washing their hands maybe 200 times a day or checking and rechecking locks on doors or light switches. Another common one is counting -- anything (like step when walking or words when someone is talking), and another is collecting or hoarding -- anything (especially of little value). For me, the two biggest problems were counting and picking at my cuticles. I knew it was "just" a bad habit, but no matter how hard I tried to stop, I only got worse. OCD is just another manifestation of anxiety.
OCD is a very strong genetic trait, and I inherit it from my father, whose "habit" is *absolute perfectionism*. I used to think that I had to use fingernail clippers to mow the lawn in order to satisfy him when I was little. It was tough. One of my sisters inherited OCD also, and she has it in the forms of perfectionism, hyper-work (always busy but not mania), and collecting husbands (she is on #4 right now). :-( You can email me at thadley01 AT hotmail DOT com if you want to talk more.
Ted
Posted by Mal on December 8, 2002, at 7:06:26
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
Krysti, my initial response (even before I read the thread) was that you should end the "friendship" as gracefully as possible. You don't owe this person an explanation. When you no longer respect someone, the relationship is in trouble. I have some relatives (cousins I was raised pretty close to) who act like your "friend" acts (not working, pity parties, etc., lies, having kids they can't support) and I know they will never change. I'd be wasting my breath if I tried to talk to them about it, and so would you if you tried with your "friend".
That is my vote. Have a great day!!! MAL
Posted by Krysti on December 8, 2002, at 8:38:04
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Mal on December 8, 2002, at 7:06:26
Hi mal,
Wow, I'm really surprised so many people have said to end it and not to say why. At this point, she's going to know partly why anyway. I was pretty vocal the last time I talked to her when she told me she had a miscarriage and I realized she had been lying to me.
I still feel kind of bad though. You know how when people say they went through a hard time and then realized who their true friends were? I kind of feel like I'm dumping her at a time when she needs friends the most. Oh well, I guess it would be different if this was just a one time thing that she was going through a hard time. But, she brings it on herself and hasn't done anything to help herself since I've known her.
Sorry for rambling, just psyching myself up in case she calls.
Thanks for your vote : )
Krysti
Posted by Kath on December 10, 2002, at 13:37:05
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
Hi Krysti,
You sound very thoughtful, kind, and mature. I'm glad you're taking care of yourself - because by considering all these things, that's exactly what you're doing & that's great.
I think you've identified that this person is really not the type of person who you want as a 'friend' for yourself. I'm not sure where to suggest you take it from there, so am going to read what other people said first.
:-) Kath
> I have a friend that I'm not sure I want to be friends with anymore. After what I've been through though (with being Bipolar), I feel like a bad person for dumping her as a friend. Friends are supposed to support each other even through the hard times. I wanted to hear other people's opinions on this.
>
> She's been my friend for 6 years now and she can be a very good person, but she also can be very manipulative and a lyar to try to get what she wants or to make you feel sorry for her. As far as I know, she does not have any form of mental illness.
>
> She has a 9 year old child and has not held down any kind of job for longer than a couple of months since I've known her. Most of the time she doesn't work at all. She has every excuse in the book not to work. At first it was because daycare was too expensive, then it was this, then it was that, now it's because she has a problem with her hip. She has pins in it now that she was supposed to get removed 2 years ago. It has made her hip even worse because they are still in there and honestly, I think she hasn't gotten them removed so she can keep having an excuse to not work. She lives off other people (right now living with her mom). She does nothing to help herself and blames everything bad in her life on other people. I have really lost all respect for her.
>
> She married someone last year after knowing him for 4 months. Within a year, he left her, but they were still talking. A couple of weeks ago, she told me she was pregnant. A couple of days later she told me she was thinking of having an abortion. Now, just a couple of nights ago, she told me she had a miscarriage on her birthday (which was the same day she told me she was pregnant). So, for 2 weeks now she has been lying to me about being pregnant and telling me she was thinking of having an abortion when she already had a miscarriage (?). Honestly, I don't even think she ever was pregnant, I think she just made it up to try to get her husband back.
>
> Anyway, I know she is going through hard times, but really, what is the point of being friends with someone if it you are not even going to be honest with them. I've dealt with this from her for 6 years now and have tried to tell her I don't like the lying. You know, if she doesn't want to tell me certain things, she doesn't have to, but don't make things up.
>
> What's your opinion on this? Is it bad of me to just tell her I don't want to be friends with her anymore? Or do you think I should stick by her and try to help her out? In my opinion, you can't help someone who doesn't help themself and she doesn't seem to do that. She just wants to keep having pity parties for herself. Also, if your opinion is to not be friends with her anymore - how far into it do I go into explaining why? Should I just lay it all out about how I feel about the last 6 years or say as little as possible to not hurt her feelings?
>
> If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading : ) Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Krysti
Posted by Kath on December 10, 2002, at 13:44:40
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » ShelliR, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 22:50:57
That sounds like a good idea, talling her that you can't go on like this, etc.
I've been going to CoDependents Anonymous for 2 1/2 years & have gotten amazing insight into myself & others. I am MRS RESCUER/MRS FIXIT etc & I have actually watched myself changing! It's great!
good luck, Kath
Hi Shelli,
>
> Yes, I guess that does make sense. I guess I was thinking not telling her would be taking the easy way out, but now you've offered a different perspective. I've always had the "fixing people" disorder, but some people don't want to be fixed. And I guess trying to fix people is a selfish thing, I'm probably doing it to make myself feel good like I'm doing the "right" thing. As Ted pointed out earlier, I'm sure she knows what her own problems are, she's just denying it to herself. And as you pointed out, although I hadn't thought of it that way, I would just be blaming her for not wanting to be friends with her anymore. I'm really glad I decided to post this. It's nice to get a different perspective on things.
>
> I don't really know how I'm going to exactly handle it when/if she calls me again - it's kind of hard to say to someone "I don't want to be your friend anymore", but I will definitely keep what you guys have said in mind. I think I will probably just tell her I can't keep going on like this. My idea and her idea of a friendship is different. That's a good start anyway.
>
> Thanks for your post : )
>
> Krysti
Posted by Krysti on December 10, 2002, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Kath on December 10, 2002, at 13:44:40
Hi Kath,
Thanks for the opinion and good for you : ) I know I can be waaay too understanding of other people's problems sometimes to the point of where I'm probably enabling them. I'm trying to fix myself now instead of others : )
Krysti
Posted by Medusa on December 11, 2002, at 4:12:00
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
of your time and energy? Methinks life is too short for this baloney.
I haven't read the rest of the posts and replies, so perhaps I'm missing key information or reiterating something ...
Posted by Kath on December 11, 2002, at 17:31:52
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Kath, posted by Krysti on December 10, 2002, at 20:04:43
That's wonderful Krysti - I think the more we talk about these type of things, the more people become aware of them & the more we can support each other in taking care of ourselves.
hugs, Kath
> Hi Kath,
>
> Thanks for the opinion and good for you : ) I know I can be waaay too understanding of other people's problems sometimes to the point of where I'm probably enabling them. I'm trying to fix myself now instead of others : )
>
> Krysti
Posted by caile on December 12, 2002, at 22:26:45
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions » Krysti, posted by Kath on December 11, 2002, at 17:31:52
Hi,
I am going through a similar incident with a long-term (over 12 years) so-called "friend" who has been more of a drain on me than anything, yet I have trouble letting go because of sentimental reasons and because of the fact that I've had so few friends in my life. However, as time goes on I realize more and more that continuing with this friendship is a waste of time. As my boss said, "Poison friends are hard to get rid of sometimes, but when you break free, you'll be glad you did."Think about what's best for YOU. Does this friend provide enough positives for you to deal with the negatives? In my case, the answer was a resounding "NO!" The last incident that she really hurt me (as my maid of honor on my wedding night two weeks ago) was the last straw. She is manipulative, pushy, rude and basically a leech. Now I am avoiding contact with her at all costs. Not because I want to punish her, but because I just can't handle the anxiety/stress/depression that comes with dealing with her and this issue face-to-face. So, I'm just going to avoid her until she realizes it's over. I am not strong enough to do anything else.
This is not an answer to your question, obviously. It's just a post explaining that someone else is going through the same sort of thing. Maybe it will help in some way.
Good luck to you, regardless how you handle it.
Caile~
Posted by trouble on December 13, 2002, at 17:32:26
In reply to Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by Krysti on December 7, 2002, at 17:09:37
If it were me I'd drop her FOR NOW, just not return her calls, and if she persists, do the standard "It's not you it's me" routine, no need to be hurtful, and in a way it really IS you and not her, surely there are others who would be amenable to her form of friendship, the best we can hope is that these people find each other and leave the rest of us be.
trouble
Posted by Krysti on December 17, 2002, at 19:46:25
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by caile on December 12, 2002, at 22:26:45
Hi Caile,
Thanks for the response. I guess that's my problem - she's not even really a drain. It's more annoying than anything else at this point with her lies. I also have no desire to hang out with her anymore. I guess I want to "teach her a lesson for her own good." That's why I want to tell her way. Still not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but from the sounds of everyone's posts, maybe not a good thing. Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter anymore because she hasn't tried to call me anymore. I think she got the hint that I wasn't going to put up with her lies anymore.
Thanks for the post - I appreciate it.
Krysti
Posted by Krysti on December 17, 2002, at 19:52:14
In reply to Re: Question about friendship - need opinions, posted by trouble on December 13, 2002, at 17:32:26
Still amazes me that people's opinions are to not confront her on it. I guess deep down, I'm just a trouble maker, trouble ; )
Have a hard time not pointing out other people's faults. Really bad, god knows I have enough of my own...so why do I want to do that??? Do I really want to help people or am I just fooling myself - want to point out to people what's wrong with them to make myself feel better? I hope that's not it... For what it's worth, I don't always do that.
Krysti
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