![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
Does anyone know how Dinah is doing, and if she's gone for good? Can she re-register if she decides to come back, under a different name, if necessary? If so, I hope she's told this, Dr. Bob's response to her on Admnstrtn had that ring of finality to it, and I'd hate to think there's no recourse if she decides to come back. I've been reading her old posts, and no matter what went wrong the last couple weeks it strikes me that leaving the community could only be experienced as a personal loss.
Anyway, just hoping her friends are keeping in touch, since I feel a certain responsibility regarding her decision to vanish.trouble
Posted by IsoM on March 9, 2002, at 15:05:29
In reply to Dinah's friends, posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
Trouble, Dinah e-mailed me that she was leaving PB & left a new e-mail address with me. Her sweetness & innocence are child-like & I love it. I, too, like her, often don't quite get the comments others post back & forth. I read people well by body language but on this board with only typed words to look at, I often don't understand just what someone is getting at.
Dinah couldn't take this & the seemingly mind-games being played. Instead of this board helping her, it was seriously wearing her down. For her own health, it was better that she left. If she wishes to post in the futrue, she always still can.
You're good for being concerned about her. You really do care about others. Bless you, trouble.
Posted by Zo on March 9, 2002, at 19:24:01
In reply to Re: Dinah's friends » trouble, posted by IsoM on March 9, 2002, at 15:05:29
I'm so glad to hear. I was an inadvertant player in one of those "mind games". . .because I lost my place on a thread! Tell her, it wasn't mind games, it was ADD!
I was answering someone else entire, and by the time I figured it out, she was gone.
Say hi, and that I was sad to see her leave,
Zo
Posted by IsoM on March 9, 2002, at 20:20:33
In reply to Re: Dinah's friend w/ADD » IsoM, posted by Zo on March 9, 2002, at 19:24:01
Actually, everyone, the e-mail I sent to Dinah came back as an error address. I changed the ending from .com to .ca as some have made that error & that came back too. I don't believe Dinah gave me the incorrect address on purpose - it's simply not like her to. But Dinah, if you're reading the forum at all, please e-mail me & send the correct address. I'd love to talk with you.
Posted by Anna Laura on March 9, 2002, at 21:36:33
In reply to Re: Dinah's friends » trouble, posted by IsoM on March 9, 2002, at 15:05:29
> Trouble, Dinah e-mailed me that she was leaving PB & left a new e-mail address with me. Her sweetness & innocence are child-like & I love it. I, too, like her, often don't quite get the comments others post back & forth. I read people well by body language but on this board with only typed words to look at, I often don't understand just what someone is getting at. Dinah couldn't take this & the seemingly mind-games being played. Instead of this board helping her, it was seriously wearing her down. For her own health, it was better that she left. If she wishes to post in the futrue, she always still can.
I'm sorry to hear about that. I recall her posting a message about taking a break: couldn't imagine she wanted to leave.
I guess it all went over my head. I'm quite disappointed and puzzled at the same time : i really hope that nobody ever played mind games to her. If it was so, well that means this is not a safe place and it was good for her to leave. This is so disheartening, though!
May be i'm too naive but i never thought about mind games being played here.
I'm wondering why she left without saying a word, not expressing her discomfort whatsoever : perhaps she was in too much pain to talk about that. I hope she's reading our messages and thinking it over.
May be i sounded a bit "telegraphic" : so many thoughts and doubts are popping inside my head and i can't think straight . I'm speechless.
Posted by IsoM on March 10, 2002, at 2:04:37
In reply to Re: Bitter surprise, posted by Anna Laura on March 9, 2002, at 21:36:33
Anna Laura, don't be speechless. I may be wrong but I feel Dinah didn't have any problem with your postings at all. I sometimes don't understand what people mean on this forum & wonder if I'm just a little thick at those times. If the post was directed to me, I always ask for clarification but keep silent when it's for others. I might not always understand what is meant but I can 'read' how another may look at it from different angles & either accept it or misconstrue what was said.
Posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
In reply to Re: Bitter surprise, posted by Anna Laura on March 9, 2002, at 21:36:33
Hey y'all,
I'm bewildered by the reflexive antipathy I'm seeing on the board regarding mind games.
Maybe mind games is one of those nebulous terms that everyone has their own discrete defintion of, and I'd like to explore that w/ anyone who cares to relate.
From my own perspective mind games are ok. Like Al Pacino said to Michelle Pfieffer in Frankie and Johnny there are good games and bad games. I prefer the good games myself, but they sometimes start out as bad games and need to be turned around. And of course, good games can go bad, before you know what happened, I'm sure we've all experienced our share of them.
But games as an option? I don't see it. To me that's kind of like saying I refuse to be neurotic. It's not a choice. Especially for people who have psychological issues, that is to say the majority of people in this community. Therein lies our advantage over the general public, we know more than most about the way the mind plays tricks. Presumably.
BTW I believe that abandonment of another based on the refusal to play games w/ them is in itself a game.
sincerely,
(and is there a more game-playing closing than "sincerely"? ha, gotcha!)trouble
Posted by ambrosialdelight on March 10, 2002, at 15:22:18
In reply to mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
I had a debate with someone some time ago in which he concluded that everything is a game and that even if I take my ball and bat and go home, that's a game too like trouble pointed out. Is every form of interaction we have with others a game? When does a game become a "mind-game"? What is a mind-game? My thoughts are that we label things "mind-games" (with the negative connotation) when they make us a uncomfortable to whatever degree. We feel we need to "gain the upper hand" so we actively strategize to gain this (as opposed to regular "life-skills" strategizing). I also feel that many labels have nothing to do with what things actually are. Some "mind-games" can be fun if all parties involved want to play and agree on goals, intentions, etc. I think this is why "games" as we think of them, baseball, X's and O's, etc, have rules to play by. "Mind-games" tend to vary greately in their goals/intentions many of which are unique in the mind of each player and are often kept secret. This causes the discomfort, misunderstanding and misinterpretation which gives mind-games a bad rep. Even Aussie rules football has rules but there are "fewer" restrictions than in other games so the players tend to get more serious injuries. "Mind-games" essentially have no rules hence greater scope of injury. As far as "controlling" mind-games, I don't know how far someone can control them, but I find that most people don't play "mind games" with people they like or care about, except in the above mentioned case where all parties concerned want to play. However sometimes we may think others want to play when they really don't which makes listening that much more important. Life would be awfully dull if everyone stopped playing, but it's always better if everyone is on the same page.
Posted by IsoM on March 10, 2002, at 16:03:11
In reply to Re: mind games, part1- re not playing is a game, posted by ambrosialdelight on March 10, 2002, at 15:22:18
To each his own. Whether one enjoys the give & take of mind games or hates them probably has much to do with how these games affect them.
I grew up in a household where it was necessary to play mind-games. That's how I coped but it was stressful for me to always be planning strategies with different peoples. Then despite my best intenetions, I ended up with a husband who played them & very well - he convinced me for a long time.
I'm tired of games. They're not fun for me, they stress me, & eat away at me if I involve myself in them. So while I may not 'refuse to play' them, I'll play them my way. I don't bluff. What you see is what you get. If anyone wishes to disagree, go ahead, it won't change my viewpoint. I've been told by many others that I don't play games from comments that I'm blunt, to I'm frank, to I'm refreshingly honest & open. I suppose it depends on how others view mind-games themselves.
And yes, I think on the whole, we unintentionally tend to play them with others, especially if we don't know one another well yet & are feeling out the path. For those who get real enjoyment & elation from them, I don't mind at all, but I simply can't play back. I hate coffee, it makes me gag, & even the smell puts me off, but I have no objection with others drinking coffee. Why should I? I have no objections with others enjoying mind games either. I just don't.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 10, 2002, at 16:59:42
In reply to Re: mind games, part1- re not playing is a game, posted by ambrosialdelight on March 10, 2002, at 15:22:18
> My thoughts are that we label things "mind-games" (with the negative connotation) when they make us a uncomfortable to whatever degree.
Right, and the goal of these boards is support and education, so those games aren't appropriate here.
> As far as "controlling" mind-games, I don't know how far someone can control them...
So I try to exercise some control over who plays.
> However sometimes we may think others want to play when they really don't which makes listening that much more important... it's always better if everyone is on the same page.
I agree with that, too, making sure you're on the same page is the way to go.
Bob
Posted by Mair on March 10, 2002, at 21:50:05
In reply to mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
Trouble
Sometimes you seem so aptly-named. Mind games may be fine if 2 are playing (knowingly), but I think they're pretty insensitive otherwise, and in this setting, where you really don't know your "competitor," potentially dangerous.
I also don't understand your point that this forum is a place where those games should be expected because we all know the human mind so well. The list of illnesses that afflict people on this Board is pretty extensive and the degree of severity varied. I think it's a huge mistake to draw too many conclusions about the population beyond that. It's probably far safer to assume a level of sensitivity and vulnerability that may make many of us unwilliing participants in any but the most innocent of mind games.
Mair
Posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 22:15:54
In reply to mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
There I go again, wreaking havoc.
Presumably, as in reasonable assumption, was the qualifying term I used w/respect to the psychological sophistication I attributed to fellow PB members. Sorry if it was taken as a generalization.
Oh well, since this thread's beyond played out, I'll end by saying all I learned about games came from the screaminly entertaining
Games People Play, the Psychology of Human Relationships, Eric Berne M.D.
Books! Nothing buttrouble
Posted by christophrejmc on March 11, 2002, at 1:21:15
In reply to Re: mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 22:15:54
> Games People Play, the Psychology of Human Relationships, Eric Berne M.D.
Ahhh!! Not Berne! One of my former the-rapists was into Transactional Analysis... it was not fun. The book is actually O.K., though (it's a bit pop-psychy, but what isn't?). I traded it with my current therapist for some Freud text, we both laugh our arses off reading them to eachother.
Posted by ST on March 11, 2002, at 1:50:42
In reply to mind games, part 1, posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 14:33:31
Wow. I must have been totally oblivious. Mind games? I don't think I notice or ackowledge those things...
I'm sorry Dinah has left. I wish she'd reconsider.
Sarah
Posted by Lini on March 11, 2002, at 9:35:41
In reply to Oblivious, posted by ST on March 11, 2002, at 1:50:42
I don't understand what is going on? As a "lurker" on these boards, it is possible that I have missed something, but I went back through and read a bunch of old posts and I don't understand where all of this "mind games" stuff is coming from. Everyone is manipulative in someway or another - all we can ask is that the golden rule gets applied liberally and often.I am actually shocked that Dinah is not here. Actually, I am more shocked that I am shocked I guess, cause I didn't really think I cared too much about this board - more saw it as something to read, like a good book that talks back. But Dinah leaving makes this all very personal - like someone ripped out some pages or something. Why did she go? Can someone explain?
We're just people here. Fucked up in our own unique ways . . . I feel like if you have to actually come out and say you need to leave, then you're making a statement about "us" here on PB.(now I am actually including myself, and using acronyms!). I guess I am realizing that this place is kinda like family to me. You can say you're leaving, or be blocked or just not read anything for a few weeks, but you're always going to be related to "us" here. just like we didn't choose our family, we didn't choose the other people on this board, but here we are, and once you're in the mix of it, well it becomes a tattoo.
Oh man, I guess I am upset that Dinah isn't here. I mean, her posts were always soooo "trying" in that you could tell, she was always wanting to do the best for the person, always wanting to be thoughtful and diplomatic. I am sure it must have been exhausting, but I really appreciated it.
So anyway, now Dinah has turned into a distant cousin related through marriage. That sucks. I don't like people to leave.
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
In reply to Dinah's friends, posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
If anyone is knowingly playing mind games here - in other words, being deceptive - I want them to know that they will likely eventually cause many to leave. That's one thing that isn't tolerated by the folks I call my friends here - honesty is key when you're dealing with a community you can't see, or hear, or feel. As is being "blunt" to a point - there is no room for sarcasm that isn't clearly sarcasm.
One reason I'm not here really anymore is the "games" that have been popping up. It's a different and unsafe atmosphere.
- KK
Posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:11:14
In reply to Mind Games, posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
KK,
I've wondered where you've been... Maybe I just haven't read those "mind game" posts, but I do hope you decide to come back.
Sarah
Posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
In reply to Mind Games, posted by Krazy Kat on March 12, 2002, at 9:06:54
Which newsboard were all these problems occuring on besides the obvious few outbreaks that I was aware of on the psychobabble board (the identity swizzle game).I guess I'm oblivious to this mind game thing
and this beligerent posting dealy. Maybe I do
a good job of avoiding those threads or just taking them with a grain of salt.Thanks,
John
> If anyone is knowingly playing mind games here - in other words, being deceptive - I want them to know that they will likely eventually cause many to leave. That's one thing that isn't tolerated by the folks I call my friends here - honesty is key when you're dealing with a community you can't see, or hear, or feel. As is being "blunt" to a point - there is no room for sarcasm that isn't clearly sarcasm.
>
> One reason I'm not here really anymore is the "games" that have been popping up. It's a different and unsafe atmosphere.
>
> - KK
Posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
In reply to Re: Mind Games, posted by johnX2 on March 13, 2002, at 9:42:13
I don't know what to say. It looks like most of y'all, including Dr.Bob have used the term mind games like a rorsarsch test, and it seems pointless to try but I just feel like I need to add something constructive before letting this go and I don't know where to start, please bear w/me.
Basically, the mind games Dinah spoke of were real, they were apparent and sad. If you look over her last week of posting, especially btwn her and myself it becomes clear that something painful was compelling her to feel badly about herself. In retrospect I believe her "gremlin" (the inner critic who is never satisfied until you're a puddle on the floor) had her by the balls, and I spoonfed that thing out of my own ignorance and narcissism. In retrospect, again looking over the posts it's clear, I see where things went off-track, it's all there in our discussions on anger and values and principles, she set me up, and this is a game, and it's not evil or deceptive or dishonest, god nothing is that simple, but her gremlin set me (really herself) up w/ her inquiries regarding middle class values, she wanted me, specificlly to share my ideas on middle class values, and this is where I should have asked why, why me, she knew on some level that she was throwing raw meat to a starving tiger, and I responded accordingly, like the passionate, grass-roots Marxist I am, boo to the middle class, that is to say I was talking from an ideological perspective when what Dinah needed was more therapeutic and validating in nature.
WE all dropped the ball when she asked for help about the bullying husband, when she came back and said forget it, that she was a terrible wife for talking about her marriage, that was an obvious "game" she had set herself up for that went completely over my head, busy as I was feeding her gremlin.
Then she proclaimed that a rest cure was in order, and would take a break from typing, and I applauded that. I believe that by this time everything I said to her fed the gremlin, and you can see that in the posts if you have the stomach for it. She came back that night and posted several times in game-speak, and I and others replied playfully in kind, which was our mistake.
By now she must have been grasping for whatever remained of her self-respect, you can almost see it draining out of her as she tried to regain her footing on PBA w/the That Was Beautiful, Dr. Bob post, which began, "As one who finds true beauty in justice..."Whoa, hold on there. Justice is a moral principle, and I had been attacking moral principles from a pedagological point of view, which, in my conceit, I didn't realize was taken by Dinah as a personal attack. I'm supposed to know all about mindgames and be so adroit at turning them around but I was blinded by my own narcissism run amuck.
Final and most poignant conversation btwn us was on PB when she, fresh from the rest cure gave someone advice w/ her usual creative wit and metaphor, and I posted Brilliant Wit, Dinah, You're Peaking Again! I hope it's apparent how stupid that was, how stupid Face Value can be. How do you think she took that? Her response made my hair stand on end. Had I been the least bit sensitive to the "dance" we were doing, and not the face-value intellectual boob that I was she'd probably still be w/us today.By the time I realized what went wrong it was too late and complicated, she was too demoralized.
So yes, I think it's important to grow up a little and look into what Eric Berne called the psychology of human relationships, or "Games People Play." They are more about pain, than they are The Talented Mr. Ripley.
trouble
Posted by Lini on March 13, 2002, at 13:42:42
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
Maybe this is what happens when this board takes on too much significance for people. I mean, I think this whole chat thing is great, but this mind games things has thrown me for a loop. Are mind games being deceptive? Being sarcastic? Are mind games saying you'll tell a story but only one sentence at a time or if a certain condition is met? Are mind games logging in as two different people and then arguing with yourself? Are mind games answering everyone's posts, trying to make friends with everyone and becoming popular/known on the board? Are mind games saying one thing on PB, another thing on PSB and something else on PBA? Telling on people on PBA? Being offended by little remarks? Saying you'll never come back?Maybe if we had an agreed upon definition of what a mind game was, we could avoid it. Or if people simply explained when they're hurt and gave other people a chance to apologize/be supportive.
This whole thing has gotten so highschool. Can't we just take this all a little less personally?
Posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 14:37:31
In reply to Re: Mea Culpa, posted by Lini on March 13, 2002, at 13:42:42
I came to pb for some med advice and got it. I checked out the psb board and thought it was kind of neat to share ideas and advice. But I never took it so seriously that I got offended by something someone said.
The definition of support is a tricky one. Does it mean that you rah-rah-rah someone's ridiculous decision? Or does it mean that you help someone over tough times? And does that "help" mean saying only what the person wants to here?
I am certain this board is inhabited by some nice folks, some intelligent people, some caring individuals. But--and I mean no offense by this--if I want "support," why would I ask strangers? If I need crisis management, why would I come to this anonymous board and post my cry for help? I don't even know where any of you live!
Our families and our friends and our neighbors should be the ones we trust with the intimate details of our lives, the ones we go to in our times of need. I thought this was the place to commiserate, the place to be to not be alone, the FREE place to get an unbiased opinion from people who don't evaluate our situations by using our own histories against us.
I say this because I don't think people should be blaming themselves for another's decision to leave the board. I suppose I could see it if a bunch of people said, "We don't like you; go away." My feelings would be hurt a little, I guess.
But this has gotten out of hand. Because I have a DSL, it's easy for me to check the board a dozen times a day. It's easy to sit in front of the screen typing until my eyes blur. It's so easy, in fact, that I haven't done some really important things in the past two weeks. (And boy does my breath stink!)
So I'm blocking myself for an indefinite period. I will have to resist the temptation to give advice and express my bizarre political views and instead brush my teeth, shower, see the world.
I worry, too, that this board might hurt some people. I have noticed a few folks here who really need help (!), and I don't think this forum is healthy for them--either because they are too sensitive or because they seem to be missing life. But that's their business, not mine. It's just an observation.
Anyway, thank you so much for all of your glad tidings and good arguments and fun poems (sue doe) and great advice (JohnX2, Ron, Colin, and others).
I wish you all the best!
bearded lady : )>
P.S. The name is from an Ani Difranco song, "'tis of thee," from "Up Up Up Up Up Up." It's an excellent song, and I hope you can check it out. Here's the section:
"i ran away with the circus
'cuz there's still some honest work left for bearded ladies
but it's not the same going town to town
since they put everyone in jail
except the cleavers and the bradys"We are all bearded ladies on this board. It's hard to hide how special we are.
Posted by mair on March 13, 2002, at 16:34:22
In reply to Mea Culpa, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 12:22:24
Trouble
I don't think you've analyzed this correctly, but I also think that it's pretty irrelevant since Dinah left choosing not to explain her reasons. She is free to come back and explain why she left to begin with and she is free to come back with no explanation and of course she is free to stay away. I hope she comes back (with or without explanation) as I trust do others, but I don't think you should engage in mental gymnastics trying to figure out what role you might have played in her leaving to begin with. The nature of the beast here is that we only get that kind of information if someone else chooses to give it to us. You can't confront Dinah as you might be able to if you actually knew her; you can't read anything from the tone of her voice, or her expression or her body language. In this respect the bearded lady is right in her assessments of the limitations of the Board.
I don't believe support has to be "rah rah;" I've seen plenty of instances where people communicated criticism in a civil and constructive manner. But no matter how familiar we all seem to one another after awhile; no matter how much you might feel that you really do sort of know someone after reading so much of what they've offered, none of us really does know people we encounter on this Board at all, and that's why I think that we all sometimes need to be careful how we deal with one another.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:43:54
In reply to Dinah's friends, posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 13:55:38
Well, if this posts it means that Dr. Bob didn't remove my registration. Thanks a lot Dr. Bob.
My therapist just gave me permission to start reading the board again and I was ... overwhelmed reading this thread and its permutations. He hasn't lifted his recommendation against posting, but since this thread concerns me, I'll give it a shot anyway.
Thanks everyone who had kind words and wished I would stay. I'm really don't think that I can. This board plays into my personal vulnerabilities in a way that is just not good for me. I can't begin to explain or even understand it, but oddly enough trouble was right. It has something to do with lack of ego strength and I still don't even know what that means, although my therapist and I spent an hour today talking about it. It's still all calculus to me.
IsoM, I'm sorry if you were upset about the e-mail address. I changed it after I sent it to you and I just couldn't remember who I had sent it to. I was not at my best.
I didn't mean to be in any way cryptic about my leaving. It just wasn't and isn't possible to explain the reasons.
And the agitated feeling I am getting reading the posts and writing my response feels so familiar. It is the main reason I left and the reason I don't think I am strong enough to come back.
I do want to say this most emphatically. I never played any games, unless you call my experiment with being totally open and vulnerable a game. (By the way, the results were not good and my personal recommendation would be against total openness and vulnerability on the internet.) Oh, and I will admit to a certain love of wordplay. So my posts may have been carefully worded but they were always honest to the utmost of my ability.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:46:11
In reply to Re: Dinah's friend w/ADD » IsoM, posted by Zo on March 9, 2002, at 19:24:01
> I'm so glad to hear. I was an inadvertant player in one of those "mind games". . .because I lost my place on a thread! Tell her, it wasn't mind games, it was ADD!
>
> I was answering someone else entire, and by the time I figured it out, she was gone.
>
> Say hi, and that I was sad to see her leave,
> Zo
Hi Zo,
I must admit that I have no real idea which post you are referring to. I don't remember any post from you that wasn't clearly addressed to me and in context with the thread posted to. Perhaps you would give me exact directions to the post in question and let me know what post you were meaning to reply to?Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2002, at 17:52:09
In reply to Re: Oblivious as well, posted by Lini on March 11, 2002, at 9:35:41
> Oh man, I guess I am upset that Dinah isn't here. I mean, her posts were always soooo "trying" in that you could tell, she was always wanting to do the best for the person, always wanting to be thoughtful and diplomatic. I am sure it must have been exhausting, but I really appreciated it.
>
Thanks Lini,
That actually was a large part of it. I did try very hard and it was exhausting. Add that to my Don Quixote complex and my OCD fears of causing harm to someone through what I posted, it left me absolutely exhausted and tearful on many an occasion. It also accounts for my frequent apologies. Unless I can overcome some of those problems in myself, I don't think I can be useful to the board or the board can be, overall, a positive thing for me. But it's my shortcomings, not anyone else's. Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate that someone could see the effort I put into my replies. It is very touching to me.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.