![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
I have a therapist that I usually have a great relationship with. But every six months or so we get in this jam, this painful dead-end jam that is torture for me and we are in it now.
We usually have a very incredible connection, and I am grateful to him for it and he is very supportive of all the insights, changes, I have made. He never says anything about his feelings for me, and I understand why - he's psychoanalytically trained, and he just doesn't do that. But since he's usually so kind and empathic, I do feel cared about and don't care if he doesn't say so.
But what's happened a few times, is he'll say something ambiguous that implies caring about me, caring for me, but it's ambiguous, and I question it and then he totally backs off, reverses it, makes it all about me and my need to hear it, when he's the one that said or did it in the first place. Like one time he said a dream was about our warm feelings for each other. I questioned it and he turned it into being about my attachment to him, which made me feel small and stupid, and when I tried to pin him to what he said he just talked about my need to hear it. It hurt and infuriated me, and it took many sessions to get on track again.
The latest was he was just on vacation for a week. Not a real big deal to me, it's the fourth summer, and it was only a week. He doesn't even usually address the vacation when he returns. This time, he asked how it was for me, I said it was okay, a lot going on, talked about the things that had happened. Then after talking about feeling slighted about a friend picking another friend over me for a special honor at her kid's Bar Mitzvah, he asked how does this tie into his vacation. i didn't see it at all. Then he kept pushing, repeatedly, in about 5 or 6 different ways about this vacation business. "Well, you're used to seeing me twice a week, you must have had some reaction." "Well, what we do here and I am very important to you, you must have had some reaction." I said you know I'm not that needy and dependent." He said "well, you said it was hard getting started" and I said yes, because of the lack of the momentum after a break." I had mentioned a I had a dream about him that morning, it just had to do with returning. I didn't get into it because I got into the things that happened when he was away, and then he asked to hear the dream, like it was so important to him because it was about him. We got a little into it and were out of time. He said we'll continue with the dream next time. He never does that, sets an agenda. I said it seems more important to you than me. The next time, I talked about stuff with my husband. Then today I brought up last week, how he kept harping on the vacation like it was supposed to be some big deal to me. Like he had his own agenda. Like he wanted me to say I missed him, like that was important to him. He said it was only because he was checking on the "pulse of the relationship" that he was concerned because after all, I'm used to him "being there" for me and he wasn't. (actually I'm quite independent and though I've told him this means a lot to me in the past, I also work my ass off). I told him the way he had kept pushing 5 0r 6 different ways that time seemed to be more about his agenda, like he needed to hear that I missed him or that maybe it was his way of saying he missed me. He turned the whole thing into this very unpleasant very hurtful thing where he never owned up to any feelings, and made it be about me. I want to hear HE missed ME. I don't want to tell him I missed him unless he says so first (I didn't really miss him much). I told him his actions that day did seem to be saying something about his feelings. He expects me to lay my guts out every time, but he will never express and honest feeling, even though we seem to have this incredible rapport and incredible communication almost all the time. But to me I operate on two levels - I think this seems so incredible, it must be for him too, but then I also think I'm nobody special and he sees a lot of people and it's all in a day's work and I'm stupid for thinking it can mean anything to him.
And it's almost never an issue except a few times a year when he does sort of unknowingly express something, or here reading between the lines he seemed to be doing it. But I never get any confirmation of any feelings. He just throws it back in my face "what would it mean to you if I said you were special?" I'm not asking him to say I'm special just that this means something to him too, within all the appropriate boundaries and context. But he never does, he just puts it on me - that it's my need. He makes me feel very bad. I've been totally bummed out since I saw him, and up most of the night even though I took extra klonipin to sleep.
I feel torn up over him jerking me around. I think when it comes to this area, he ought to treat it with kid gloves, only he uses boxing gloves.
I don't know if I'm making mountains out of molehills. I just think there's something really insincere about having a great rapport, only he'll never comment on it from his side, he'll only comment on how much it means to me, and if I address his side, only because he opened the door with some ambiguous remark, he just makes me feel like a stupid little needy kid. I just want him to acknowledge what's there. That there obviously are mutually warm feelings. But there is apparantly some terrible prohibition on this. It feels insincere.
Posted by Patches on July 17, 2001, at 17:07:34
In reply to Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
Hi Jenny,
It is so very confusing when these issues arise. I feel the same way sometimes, except my t. doesn't ever question me about how I feel about him. I have told him I care, probably more than I should, but understand about transference and all that. I guess I just wish he would say he cared too. I think therapists are so afraid to get into that area, but if they only understood how important it is for their patients to know they really do care about them. We're not asking them to be in love with us; just to say and show they really do care. I've never had anyone really show me that my feelings mattered. Sometimes my t. can show such empathy, but then suddenly I feel so shut out like I'm just part of his job... and a bother... like I feel and have felt to everyone who has had to put up with me. Good luck Jenny. Keep in touch.
Posted by Marie1 on July 17, 2001, at 19:19:14
In reply to Re: Therapist problems, posted by Patches on July 17, 2001, at 17:07:34
Jenny,
I've just begun reading a book called "In Session, the Bond Between Women and their Therapists", by Deborah Lott. I haven't gotten into it much yet (actually, just the forward!), but the book is supposed to address exactly what you described. (Which is why I got it - I can really relate.)
Marie
Posted by judy1 on July 17, 2001, at 21:28:50
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Patches, posted by Marie1 on July 17, 2001, at 19:19:14
I found this book extremely helpful after the ending of my relationship with my last shrink. I felt less alone knowing other therapists had crossed boundaries with their patients and most relevant to Jenny's situation is a section that deals with how some therapists turn their feelings over to the patient- so that the patient feels it's their problem of 'transferance' when actually 'countertransferance' is going on. Let me know what you think after you read it. Take care- judy
Posted by Willow on July 17, 2001, at 22:35:12
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by judy1 on July 17, 2001, at 21:28:50
*so that the patient feels it's their problem of 'transferance' when actually 'countertransferance' is going on.
This has been mentioned on other threads. I've tried doing a search on transference and I don't think I really came up with a true meaning. Like many things I don't think I really get it.
Transference, is it when you want the person to feel a certain way, you choose there emotions or how you want to perceive them? Or is it when you pick up on their mannerisms or values?
And then what is countertransference? Perhaps a internet search of this will answer the riddle for me?
Willow
Posted by mila on July 17, 2001, at 22:54:12
In reply to Countertransference?, posted by Willow on July 17, 2001, at 22:35:12
Hi Willow,
transference, is when you confuse your therapist with your parent/authority figure from your past (unconsciously generalise your emotional responses to the therapist and therapy situation), and act your feelings out (behave timidly if you were timid with your parents, or with jealousy if you were jealous of your parents, etc. therapist uses such responses to teach you that other behavior is possible with the authority figures). Countertransference is when the therapist gets caught in this illusion and starts to believe that you are their daughter and acts accordingly! It comes as a reaction to your enfatuation with them, or whatever. It is the worst thing that can happen for a therapist: to begin accepting the adulation and using the power of primary transferences in the relationship.
Also, countertransference is when the therapist sees you for something you are not generally (unconscious generalizations to client by therapist).
Both terms are very loose and it is debated whether these processes actually happen at all. Some therapists argue that everything that happens in therapy is about real ongoing relationship between two people, and that there is no need to imply that both therapist and client perceive each other as a replicate of a third person. What is is. That's it.
mila
Posted by kazoo on July 18, 2001, at 0:21:47
In reply to Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
> I have a therapist ...
/snip/
Situation: complicated.
Solution: dump him.
Kazoo
Posted by Anna Laura on July 18, 2001, at 3:58:56
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » JennyR, posted by kazoo on July 18, 2001, at 0:21:47
> > I have a therapist ...
>
> /snip/
>
> Situation: complicated.
> Solution: dump him.
> KazooDon't dump him as long as you find this therapy useful/meaningful. If his countertransference becomes a burden, or if it "pollutes" and destroys the setting and interrupts the growing process, then dump him.
Good luck
Posted by shelliR on July 18, 2001, at 11:59:27
In reply to Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
Hi Jenny.
I also have a therapist who is very good, but there are times that we absolutely get into a dead-end jam, as you put it.
I think all therapists (and all people) have blind spots. My therapist will rarely ever admit that she was wrong. Not only that, but there are times she will absolutely distort reality (e.g., what was said, etc.) to be right. It is extremely irritating and frustrating to me.That said, in general she was been very very helpful to me. She is very bright, thinks fast, and has helped me move me forward in the way I see myself and the way I relate to the world. So when those situations come up, I really try to let it go, because I have learned there is no sense in continuing to confront her about it. I call it (to myself, and even sometimes to her) a "Dr. C" thing. Like I'm identifying it and acknowledging it as her problem, separate from me.
So I guess when one runs into their therapist's "blind-spot", you have to decide how much overall that gets in the way of how much he or she can help you. I absolutely know how disconcerting it is. It sounds like every six months is probably something you can live with. Maybe the next step is to anticipate it and not have it stress you out so. IMHO
Shelli
Posted by Wendy B. on July 18, 2001, at 16:03:59
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » JennyR, posted by kazoo on July 18, 2001, at 0:21:47
> > I have a therapist ...
>
> /snip/
>
> Situation: complicated.
> Solution: dump him.
> Kazoo
Right on, Kazoo!
My suggestion in times like this
(and I've said it before on this board):GET A FEMALE THERAPIST!
All the sexual stuff, did you miss him or not
when he went on vacation... That's bullshit.
You deserve better.
Get some referrals, & find another one,
you don't need the headaches...You sound strong and on target, so
keep it going, all the best,Wendy
Posted by shelliR on July 18, 2001, at 16:18:05
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Patches, posted by Marie1 on July 17, 2001, at 19:19:14
Hi Marie,
Does the book you are reading talk about only male therapists and female patients, or does it also address female therapists and female patients?
Shelli
p.s. I think you said you live in Northern Va. I live about 3 miles north of nw d.c. in maryland. When I read your posts, I always get an image of you being out there somewhere on the other side of the bridge!
Posted by Marie1 on July 18, 2001, at 22:31:11
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by shelliR on July 18, 2001, at 16:18:05
Shelli,
Hi - and yeah, I'm on the WAY outer beltway!
What kind of business are you in? I don't mean to compromise your anonymity, so feel free to be vague. I was just curious. I work for a small business owner (actually, we're more like partners, but technically the business is hers - it's her money we're losing! < g >), so I understand that total absorption into your own business thing.
As for the book, I actually made more headway into it today and I'm finding it interesting. The author looks in depth at transference with male and female therapists, from the perspective of their female clients. Apparently there's a lot of commonality in how women relate to therapists of either sex.
The author cites examples of women falling in love with their male therapist, or developing a crush on their women therapist, fantasizing about being her sister, etc. Same thing only different, is how I understand it so far. One of the reasons for my reading this book is because I don't think I buy the concept of "transference"; I think that it's entirely natural that given the intensity of typical therapeutic relationships, it stands to reason that intense feelings may develop for the therapist. I mean, didn't we fall in love with our significant others in a similar process? I understand the concept of transference, it happens all the time; you don't like the cashier at the grocery because she reminds you of the kid down the street you couldn't stand years ago. That can happen in therapy I suppose, but I don't think thats the majority of supposed "transference" cases.
Actually ,I'm fairly new at all this "shrink stuff", so I may be off the wall here - that remains to be seen. In any case, I am enjoying the book, although she tends to write in a rather formal way, so I find I can't read it when I'm feeling foggy. Which is how I feel right now.
Take care.Marie
> Hi Marie,
>
> Does the book you are reading talk about only male therapists and female patients, or does it also address female therapists and female patients?
>
> Shelli
>
> p.s. I think you said you live in Northern Va. I live about 3 miles north of nw d.c. in maryland. When I read your posts, I always get an image of you being out there somewhere on the other side of the bridge!
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 19, 2001, at 0:03:19
In reply to Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
> I have a therapist that I usually have a great relationship with. But every six months or so we get in this jam, this painful dead-end jam that is torture for me and we are in it now.
> We usually have a very incredible connection, and I am grateful to him for it and he is very supportive of all the insights, changes, I have made. He never says anything about his feelings for me, and I understand why - he's psychoanalytically trained, and he just doesn't do that. But since he's usually so kind and empathic, I do feel cared about and don't care if he doesn't say so.
> But what's happened a few times, is he'll say something ambiguous that implies caring about me, caring for me, but it's ambiguous, and I question it and then he totally backs off, reverses it, makes it all about me and my need to hear it, when he's the one that said or did it in the first place. Like one time he said a dream was about our warm feelings for each other. I questioned it and he turned it into being about my attachment to him, which made me feel small and stupid, and when I tried to pin him to what he said he just talked about my need to hear it. It hurt and infuriated me, and it took many sessions to get on track again.
> The latest was he was just on vacation for a week. Not a real big deal to me, it's the fourth summer, and it was only a week. He doesn't even usually address the vacation when he returns. This time, he asked how it was for me, I said it was okay, a lot going on, talked about the things that had happened. Then after talking about feeling slighted about a friend picking another friend over me for a special honor at her kid's Bar Mitzvah, he asked how does this tie into his vacation. i didn't see it at all. Then he kept pushing, repeatedly, in about 5 or 6 different ways about this vacation business. "Well, you're used to seeing me twice a week, you must have had some reaction." "Well, what we do here and I am very important to you, you must have had some reaction." I said you know I'm not that needy and dependent." He said "well, you said it was hard getting started" and I said yes, because of the lack of the momentum after a break." I had mentioned a I had a dream about him that morning, it just had to do with returning. I didn't get into it because I got into the things that happened when he was away, and then he asked to hear the dream, like it was so important to him because it was about him. We got a little into it and were out of time. He said we'll continue with the dream next time. He never does that, sets an agenda. I said it seems more important to you than me. The next time, I talked about stuff with my husband. Then today I brought up last week, how he kept harping on the vacation like it was supposed to be some big deal to me. Like he had his own agenda. Like he wanted me to say I missed him, like that was important to him. He said it was only because he was checking on the "pulse of the relationship" that he was concerned because after all, I'm used to him "being there" for me and he wasn't. (actually I'm quite independent and though I've told him this means a lot to me in the past, I also work my ass off). I told him the way he had kept pushing 5 0r 6 different ways that time seemed to be more about his agenda, like he needed to hear that I missed him or that maybe it was his way of saying he missed me. He turned the whole thing into this very unpleasant very hurtful thing where he never owned up to any feelings, and made it be about me. I want to hear HE missed ME. I don't want to tell him I missed him unless he says so first (I didn't really miss him much). I told him his actions that day did seem to be saying something about his feelings. He expects me to lay my guts out every time, but he will never express and honest feeling, even though we seem to have this incredible rapport and incredible communication almost all the time. But to me I operate on two levels - I think this seems so incredible, it must be for him too, but then I also think I'm nobody special and he sees a lot of people and it's all in a day's work and I'm stupid for thinking it can mean anything to him.
> And it's almost never an issue except a few times a year when he does sort of unknowingly express something, or here reading between the lines he seemed to be doing it. But I never get any confirmation of any feelings. He just throws it back in my face "what would it mean to you if I said you were special?" I'm not asking him to say I'm special just that this means something to him too, within all the appropriate boundaries and context. But he never does, he just puts it on me - that it's my need. He makes me feel very bad. I've been totally bummed out since I saw him, and up most of the night even though I took extra klonipin to sleep.
> I feel torn up over him jerking me around. I think when it comes to this area, he ought to treat it with kid gloves, only he uses boxing gloves.
> I don't know if I'm making mountains out of molehills. I just think there's something really insincere about having a great rapport, only he'll never comment on it from his side, he'll only comment on how much it means to me, and if I address his side, only because he opened the door with some ambiguous remark, he just makes me feel like a stupid little needy kid. I just want him to acknowledge what's there. That there obviously are mutually warm feelings. But there is apparantly some terrible prohibition on this. It feels insincere.Hi again Jenny,
Oh....how I hate overly psychoanalytical
therapists! I can empathize with you. I
had a therapist who would not talk about
problems with the therapy over the phone;
she would not talk to me unless I came into
the office. How old is this gentlemen who
is your therapist? It sounds like you may
be outgrowing him; I don't know. Keep us
posted.Glenn
Posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 22:43:15
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on July 18, 2001, at 22:31:11
Hi Marie across the river.
In response:
> What kind of business are you in?.<
I'm a photographer, with a specialty that combines fine art with commissioned photography. I wish I could be more specific, but since I've already revealed my whereabouts......>One of the reasons for my reading this book is because I don't think I buy the concept of "transference"; I think that it's entirely natural that given the intensity of typical therapeutic relationships, it stands to reason that intense feelings may develop for the therapist. I mean, didn't we fall in love with our significant others in a similar process? <
I 've been thinking about your statement above, and have been formulating thoughts about it. They are not quite concrete yet. In psychoanalytic terms, I guess transference means everything you attribute to the therapist originates from early family relationships. That one I don't buy. I don't buy the whole blank slate thing. As I said in my previous post, all therapists have their blind spots and quirks, and they are real, not projected.
I’m trying to think about the intimacy of the therapist-patient relationship (from the patient’s position) compared to a sexual/partner relationship and I’m getting confused.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by "didn’t we fall in love with our significant others in a similar process." Do you mean by sharing intimate parts of ourselves? Could you expand on what you meant?In a partner relationship, particularly in the "falling in love" stage, there is the feeling that your relationship is the center of the universe. In therapy, the nature of the relationship in that you are the absolute center of the universe, and the therapist is at least partially masked.
I think (at least for me and many adults who were not nurtured and protected) that attachment is the transference for me, rather than specific projections. My therapist does *not * remind me of my mother, and that is probably why I feel this intense desire to be connected to her in some way. And how I want to be connected is not clear to me, but definitely not as a sibling, and I don’t think exactly like a mother, either. I do not want to go out to dinner with her, and I don’t want to go live with her. I just want to stay in that room with her for as long as I want, as often as I want, talking what *I* want to talk about.
As I am thinking about this, I am realizing that it is exactly what a child wants: the mother to be completely and fully there, but only when she want her to be there, i.e., the mother can’t "need" to be there because of her needs.
I think for me, it would be the same if it were a male therapist, except maybe I would be able to play out the attachment fantasy more concretely, i.e., living with him as a sexual partner. Definitely not sure about that one.I think that I’m really only talking about transference on a personal level. I know my feelings are very similar to other women who were abused both physically, and/or sexually, and emotionally, from being in several support groups and in the hospital. I don’t think this is a typical "neurotic" transference.
Wow, sorry. I get really long when I write as I am thinking. And spacey. I'm not sure if this will make any sense outside my own head, so don't worry if you don't connect to it, or take offense if I misconstrued what you were expressing. Maybe I should stop thinking about transference until after I read the book; I might be wasting a lot of energy!
Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on July 20, 2001, at 19:43:48
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 22:43:15
Hi Shelli across the river, in the big city,
Your work sounds interesting, and creative. I'm another "right-brainer". This could be a post wholly by itself, but is it my imagination that mental illness tends to hit creative types more often than logical, left-brained types?
Your thoughts on transference sound very similar to mine. I don't see where early childhood experiences/relationships formulate the relationship with your therapist. I'm the first to admit I don't really know jack about psychoanalysis, but as I said previously, it's not such a stretch to see why feelings occur inside a theraputic relationship. As you stated, the patient is "the center of the universe", at least for that 50 minutes. The person with whom you are talking is concentrating solely on you, and (in my limited experience), makes it clear that they care about your welfare - in fact, your welfare (mental health) is the very reason you are together for that 50 minutes.
I realized when I made the statement about falling in love with significant others that I should have explained more fully. But what I meant is basically what you said - again, the two of you are totally wrapped up in each other, there is mutual caring, and intimate exchanges. Of course, the difference here is that this is mutual. The fact that in therapy only the patient is the center of attention, doesn't matter. The end result of all that caring, focused attention is feelings. Nurses in combat zones have noticed that their long term patients develop an emotional attachment to them for the same reasons; it's very common. (MASH did an episode on this.)
I recall, when I first developed feelings for my shrink, telling a friend that I couldn't decide if I wanted him to be my husband or my father. I'm still not sure of that, maybe a combination of the two. In reading the book, I'm realizing these feelings aren't at all weird. In fact, some women have way more bizarre fantasies - like, they want to be INSIDE their therapists (not in a sexual way).
You said that for you, the attachment is the transference. Why does transference have anything to do with the attachment? Why can't the attachment stand alone? Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant by that. I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't think transference has anything at all to do with feelings the patient develops for his therapist. It's like Freud was making a normal reaction to a situation (therapy) into something way more complicated. As Freud himself said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Marie
Posted by shelliR on July 20, 2001, at 21:56:04
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on July 20, 2001, at 19:43:48
Hi Marie.
> You said that for you, the attachment is the transference. Why does transference have anything to do with the attachment? Why can't the attachment stand alone? Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant by that. I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't think transference has anything at all to do with feelings the patient develops for his therapist. It's like Freud was making a normal reaction to a situation (therapy) into something way more complicated. As Freud himself said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
>The reason that I would call my attachment transference is that I have the same feelings for every therapist that I've ever had. I have had them even if I didn't even really like my therapist, or respect her/him (in the past). So I think at times I am bringing more "attachment" feelings than there is a real connection, based on mutual respect, etc. Two other clues: (1) I begin to have these feelings very very early in the relationship, before the connection has really time to develop; and (2) the attachment feels very childlike, in some way I always *feel* younger than the therapist, even if there is not much of an age difference.
The connection to my therapist is connected to a sense of longing, and I feel an aching inside also, when I leave the session. I think that projection of my longing on to the therapist is a transference. And I guess I feel that when I have truely accepted that I missed that relationship in my childhood (and really mourned it, and let go of it) then I will not have the same type of feelings toward my therapist. That I could like and feel close to my therapist in a more adult way.Do you disagree with this idea/definition of transference? Do you think that a projected attachment/longing is not a transference?
Shelli
Posted by judy1 on July 21, 2001, at 4:28:02
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by shelliR on July 20, 2001, at 21:56:04
Sorry to interrupt your conversation but that description fits me to a tee. And there have been several therapists who have described me as acting 'child-like' around them, do you get that also? They were the only ones I ever felt like there was transference occurring, the rest I've seen I never felt that, even though some were very kind to me. So I guess I really believe in this phenomenom, and particularly in countertransference. Do you think this is related in anyway to childhood abuse? I don't remember any particular passages in the book we were discussing, but I haven't read it in a couple of years. Take care- judy
Posted by Marie1 on July 21, 2001, at 8:17:13
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by shelliR on July 20, 2001, at 21:56:04
Hi, Shelli,
First of all, I've got to emphasize that this is my first and only personal experience with psychotherapy, so I don't have any past experiences to be able to compare with this current one. But I think it's very interesting that you have experienced attachment with all your therapists, some before you really knew them. Maybe because you went into the therapy with expectations of this (the attachment) happening? Now you've really got me thinking... I said in my previous post that I couldn't decide if I wanted him to be my father or my husband. (My pdoc and I are the same age, so there's no "father figure" thing, at least on the surface. And btw, I did not have a positive, nurturing relationship with my own father. He was very verbally and emotionally abusive to the whole family.) That can't be a "normal" sort of attachment. I've never wished for my husband to be my father. So, I guess maybe there is something more going on here emotionally. I think I have a problem with the whole concept of transfering affection felt for someone else to your therapist. Although in your case, that must be what's happening, especially if you develop your feelings so early on. Hmmm...
I can also thoroughly relate to your "ache", or longing feeling. It's sort of bittersweet. I try to hold on to the feelings I have for my therapist as long as I can after my weekly session with him, but as the week goes on the almost euphoric feelings get replaced with a sort of sadness when I think of him. I hate that, because it makes me feel dissatisfied with the rest of my life when I'm not with him. Ohh...that really sounds pathological, doesn't it?
(DF, if you're reading this, please let me know so I can stop humiliating myself.)
OK, so having written this, I think I've sorted things out somewhat. I don't think I can really make up my mind on the credibility of "transference" based on only one experience with a therapist. And I do think that what has happened with you is something besides what would be a "normal" attachment to someone.
So do you think having "issues" stemming from childhood are a pre-requisite for feelings of transference?Marie
p.s. Judy - delighted to have you join the conversation. What did you think of the book?
p.p.s. Please excuse the bit of paranoia above. < g >
Posted by Patches on July 21, 2001, at 10:10:53
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on July 21, 2001, at 8:17:13
> I can also thoroughly relate to your "ache", or longing feeling. It's sort of bittersweet. I try to hold on to the feelings I have for my therapist as long as I can after my weekly session with him, but as the week goes on the almost euphoric feelings get replaced with a sort of sadness when I think of him. I hate that, because it makes me feel dissatisfied with the rest of my life when I'm not with him. Ohh...that really sounds pathological, doesn't it?
> (DF, if you're reading this, please let me know so I can stop humiliating myself.)Hi Marie--
Wow you said so well how I feel. I see my T. every other week... and those feelings you decribe hit me to a "T". (no pun intended). It IS so bittersweet. Sometimes I just don't know how to handle it.
I'm glad I'm not alone. Thank you!
Patches
Posted by judy1 on July 21, 2001, at 13:22:25
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on July 21, 2001, at 8:17:13
Hi Marie,
I think I mentioned before how the book was enormously helpful to me in the sense that the relationship I had with my ex-psychiatrist that crossed boundaries was shared by many other women and I wasn't the only idiot out there. Have you gotten to that part yet? Where women who have experienced abuse (especially sexual) in childhood are pretty much sitting ducks in a therapeutic relationship. That it takes a shrink with very strong boundaries to handle such women. I re-read that section where it said the therapist can just 'stop' the relationship and re-enter the real world and the woman (in this case I overdosed) needs a therapist to work through the trauma. The book was extremely accurate, so much that it hurt. Take care, judy
Posted by JennyR on July 21, 2001, at 22:21:13
In reply to Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 17, 2001, at 5:45:26
1. I think what I started this with has resolved. He did admit that he backs off from his positive statements and throws them back at me. He says he'll watch out for it. We both agree that 95% of the times things are great. He admits to pushing the vacation questioning but says it really was out of concern for me.
2. I read the book you folks are talking about "In Session" the last time he and I had this go around in October. It helped a lot then and I have re-read parts of it.
3. He did finally give me some unambiguous very good feedback, after a lot of going in circles. It made me happy.
4. The feelings you folks are describing are so much what I go through. I am always shaken up when I leave a session, partly because we get into deep stuff, partly because the intensity of the connection feels so wonderful yet at the same time is tinged with sadness, longing, etc. The intensity of my feelings for him do confuse me. I know it's not a sexual thing, because I don't fantasize about him in that way (doesn't work, feels too taboo). So I try to figure out why he means so much. He says because I got so little as a kid from my cold un-nurturing parents. In fact, all good things feel "bittersweet" to me. He says because good things remind me of what I didn't get, missed out on. I also know I also have feelings of being unentitled, undeserving of good things.
The thing about being with this therapist, is I feel so understood, and the communication and empathy are usually so good, that when it does go off track on rare occasions, it practically devastates me. To me, I've often wondered what he feels, and this problem we run into of him saying something pretty good and reflecting of his caring, but then I question it, then he sort of takes it back, puts it on me, jerks me around - this always makes me question what he feels - does he really feel a strong connection too, but feels he shouldn't say so (bad technique) and so he backs off, or does he really not care much and I am just part of a day's work. He did finally answer it over this extended hassle we just had. He said we work on a deep level and it is very special and unique. I was afraid to ask "to who, you mean to me?" because I thought we'd get in that whole hassle again. So I told him he was being ambiguous again. I asked him to clarify. He said "it's a two way street." I said that's still unclear. He said "it can't happen in a vacuum." I said this was more of the vague ambigous stuff that drives me crazy that starts these hassles. I got frustrated. Later on I returned
Posted by JennyR on July 21, 2001, at 22:31:03
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » Marie1, posted by judy1 on July 21, 2001, at 13:22:25
Sorry, sent it before meaning to.
The end of what I was saying is I finally asked him what he had meant by what we do being unique and special, special to who. He said to both of us. He said how much he respects what we do and respects the trust I put in him to allow it to happen. I asked if I mean anything to him on any level, within all the proper boundaries, within the context of what we do in that room. He said "of course."
I am happy now, because he never said this stuff before, in 3/5 years, most of which has been twice a week. I think the whole hassle we run into is because he is trying to be very professional by never expressing positive feelings toward me, and when he does, it makes him so uncomfortable, feeling he slipped, that he backs off, and then he puts it on me, my need to hear it, etc, when I was just trying to clarify what he meant, because it sounded too good to be true, yet sufficiently vague.A main point to "In Session" was therapists should know that they take on mammoth proportions to us and therefore have to be very careful to keep their needs out of it. I think he doesn't express his feelings, because once they express feelings, their needs get involved, and then it is not 100% about the client. I think my therapist goes overboard trying to adhere to this.
That book calls the therapeutic relationship "an approximate relationship" because parts of it have to do with the real here and now between two people, and then there's that whole other dimension of transference, of them seeming larger than life because we know so little about them and project all these wonderful qualities onto them, and we love the attention they lavish on us, and because it is so one way and unequal and full of inconsistencies compared to other relationships, it is bound to be confusing and troublesome at times.
Anyway, thanks for input and for the fascinating stuff you've all written, which helps me see I am not alone in these perplexing feelings.
Posted by shelliR on July 21, 2001, at 23:30:41
In reply to Incredible Shelli..., posted by judy1 on July 21, 2001, at 4:28:02
> Sorry to interrupt your conversation but that description fits me to a tee. And there have been several therapists who have described me as acting 'child-like' around them, do you get that also? They were the only ones I ever felt like there was transference occurring, the rest I've seen I never felt that, even though some were very kind to me. So I guess I really believe in this phenomenom, and particularly in countertransference. Do you think this is related in anyway to childhood abuse? I don't remember any particular passages in the book we were discussing, but I haven't read it in a couple of years. Take care- judyHi Judy. No interruption at all; I love tossing around ideas with you.
I don't know if the attachment has always to do with abuse, per say. I guess I imagine that it would have to do with not getting something that every child needs from a parent. And I'm more inclined to say something from the mother, although I'm not sure on that one. I think it has to do with missing quite early in life the unconditional love and protection of the mother. Obviously if one is abused, one has not been protected by the mother, but emotional neglect probably would leave quite a hole also.
I would say that up until this therapist, my therapists have also gotten quite attached to me, but only once really crossing boundaries, and that was a male therapist when I was twenty. I chose my current therapist because she had once been my therapist in the hospital and she is incredibly smart and very direct. She is not very maternal. I had had very maternal therapists and what I learned was no matter how much a therapist gave me as an adult, it still didn’t touch the hole that I have inside, or the ache, in any permanent way. I'm really glad I did therapy with such maternal women because I was given the opportunity to learn that that was not going to be the solution for me. So I decided to try someone who would help me focus on goals and push me to get there.
Although she is not maternal toward me, she is very parental in terms of being very opinionated about things and sort of at times treating me like she is much wiser than me. And in general she is very wise, but there are areas in which I fight her very hard, with all my adult intelligence, because I think she should respect my judgment more. So I am a mixture of child and adult in there, and actually that is how I feel inside. Very very adult in some aspects of my thinking, and very childlike in my longing.
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 0:22:20
In reply to Re: Therapist problems » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on July 21, 2001, at 8:17:13
Hi Marie.
> > > > > . . . I think it's very interesting that you have experienced attachment with all your therapists, some before you really knew them. Maybe because you went into the therapy with expectations of this (the attachment) happening? < < < < < <
No, at least not consciously. As I have gotten older, I have not expected that and have been surprised and felt humiliated that it was still happening. At one point I set up a consultation with a psychiatrist to find out why I continued after all these years of therapy to have their projections on to my therapists. She's the medical directer of the unit that I go into in the hospital, the unit which deals with trauma, abuse, and dissociative disorders, but that was before I had ever gone into that hospital.
That consultation had a huge impact on me. She asked me if I had ever grieved for what happened to me as a child. At that time I didn't even know what she meant and told her so. She said, "I mean, have you really let yourself feel anger and sadness about the things that happened to you as a child, and the fact that you were not protected." And I absolutely hadn't, and she seemed to be saying that is what I needed to do to let go of that longing. Both the anger and sadness have been very very difficult for me to feel, partly because I am so dissociative and have so few memories. But she gave me a path. I taped the session and transcribed it, so that is partly why it is still so vivid to me.
> > > >And btw, I did not have a positive, nurturing relationship with my own father. He was very verbally and emotionally abusive to the whole family.) < < < <
What about your mother? Were you close to her? I'm trying to figure out if the longing that we are talking about is related to the mother/child relationship (because that's my sense). Like is it possible that the longing comes out of the fact that your mother did not protect you from your father's verbal and emotional abuse? Or do you have a sense that it has more to do with what you were not given by your father?
> > >I think I have a problem with the whole concept of transfering affection felt for someone else to your therapist. Although in your case, that must be what's happening, especially if you develop your feelings so early on. Hmmm...< < <
I don't see it as transfering affection felt for someone else to my therapist. I see it as a more primal and universal than that. Sort of like trying to fill a hole inside, or heal a wound. At a very early age I shut my mother out--I think it was to protect me from feeling the hurt of rejection. I don't remember "wanting" anything from my mother or feeling affection. I think the tie was broken very very early for me.
> I can also thoroughly relate to your "ache", or longing feeling. It's sort of bittersweet. I try to hold on to the feelings I have for my therapist as long as I can after my weekly session with him, but as the week goes on the almost euphoric feelings get replaced with a sort of sadness when I think of him. I hate that, because it makes me feel dissatisfied with the rest of my life when I'm not with him. Ohh...that really sounds pathological, doesn't it?
Bittersweet is a wonderful description of it. Thanks. I don't know about pathological, but it certainly sounds like transference to me < g >.
> > > > OK, so having written this, I think I've sorted things out somewhat. I don't think I can really make up my mind on the credibility of "transference" based on only one experience with a therapist. < < <
The use of the word "transference" probably has as many nuances as love. So there are degrees of transference and different types of transference. For example, I have never experienced rage in therapy that is so often written about in relation to borderline personality. Actually, I have a theory about that, but I won't get into it here.
> So do you think having "issues" stemming from childhood are a pre-requisite for feelings of transference?
Yea, I really do. I have a close friend who is a psychologist/therapist and she says that the *majority* of her clients do not have abusive childhood (just neurotic) , and that they do not develop an intense transference towards her. Her clients as a whole (but not always) are in therapy a much shorter time, with less intense issues.
take care, Shelli
Posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 0:25:59
In reply to Re: Therapist problems, posted by JennyR on July 21, 2001, at 22:21:13
Hi Jenny.
> > > > > >1. I think what I started this with has resolved. He did admit that he backs off from his positive statements and throws them back at me. He says he'll watch out for it. We both agree that 95% of the times things are great. He admits to pushing the vacation questioning but says it really was out of concern for me.
> 2. I read the book you folks are talking about "In Session" the last time he and I had this go around in October. It helped a lot then and I have re-read parts of it.
> 3. He did finally give me some unambiguous very good feedback, after a lot of going in circles. It made me happy.< < < < <I'm glad that you are able to feel resolution about it, because it did sound like the two of you were doing really good work together.
shelli
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