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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ksvt on October 9, 2000, at 19:59:38
noa - I seem to remember reading a post of yours the other day that I now cannot find. (maybe it wasn't yours, and maybe that's why I can't find it.) Anyway, I thought you made a comment about non-verbal thoughts and feelings. Does thie sound familiar? If so would you mind elaborating? I struggle alot with very negative feelings that are not verbal and thus are difficult to counteract cognitively. Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks ksvt
Posted by CarolAnn on October 9, 2000, at 21:49:03
In reply to noa- please elaborate, posted by ksvt on October 9, 2000, at 19:59:38
I'm curious about your "negative feelings that are not verbal". I think I know what you mean, but not sure. Is it something like panic attacks? Or something more subtle? I hate asking you to describe the feelings, I don't know how you could, since they're non-verbal.
When I was a little girl, I would sometimes get a sort of 'attack'(too strong a word) of some weird feeling that would wash over me, and feel very unpleasant, but have no cause or real description. To myself I would call it "my embarassed feeling", although it wasn't really embarassment. I remember this happening as young as six, but can't pinpoint when it stopped happening. The weird thing is that it started up again when I was pregnant. I guess, if I had to use words, I would describe the feeling as a mild, non-physical(I know a lot of people flush, shake, and/or have rapid heart beat), panic attack. It's a very 'inward' thing, no one would ever sense anything wrong, except I get a little quiet. Does this sound familiar? I'd love to know if there's a name or diagnosis for it. Oh well, take care! CarolAnn
Posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 8:18:11
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by CarolAnn on October 9, 2000, at 21:49:03
> I'm curious about your "negative feelings that are not verbal". I think I know what you mean, but not sure. Is it something like panic attacks? Or something more subtle? I hate asking you to describe the feelings, I don't know how you could, since they're non-verbal.
> When I was a little girl, I would sometimes get a sort of 'attack'(too strong a word) of some weird feeling that would wash over me, and feel very unpleasant, but have no cause or real description. To myself I would call it "my embarassed feeling", although it wasn't really embarassment. I remember this happening as young as six, but can't pinpoint when it stopped happening. The weird thing is that it started up again when I was pregnant. I guess, if I had to use words, I would describe the feeling as a mild, non-physical(I know a lot of people flush, shake, and/or have rapid heart beat), panic attack. It's a very 'inward' thing, no one would ever sense anything wrong, except I get a little quiet. Does this sound familiar? I'd love to know if there's a name or diagnosis for it. Oh well, take care! CarolAnnCarolAnn - I sometimes get unspecified anxious feelings, but that's not really what I was talking about. What I have in mind are very negative generalized feelings about myself that are not preceded by a cognitive negative thought or self talk. This is definitely going to sound over simplistic, but I'm trying to distinguish this from the progression of depressive thinking that has one reacting to say a work mistake with a thought progression of "gee, I really screwed that up - I'm really not very good at this - I'm really not very good at anything." I go through that kind of thinking at times although I've gotten better at disrupting the progression before it things get too negative. What I have a tougher time dealing with are occasional very negative and very subjective feelings that sort of wash over me. It's the subjectivity of disliking someone for no discernable or logical reason only you're the someone. I've been thinking about this some lately because I'm working with a therapist who frequently takes a cognitive approach. It's been hard for us to address the feelings I'm talking about because they do seem so subjective and there doesn't seem to be a thought trigger. I don't know if this makes sense to you. I'd love your feedback. ksvt
Posted by noa on October 10, 2000, at 12:47:07
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 8:18:11
ksvt, I think I understand what you are talking about.
Sometimes, I think that the thought is there, but it is so automatic and perhaps not coded in the usual way (verbal, sequential, logical), but is more of an image memory, or a sensory memory of how it feels to be me.
Often, I think that there is actually an antecedent that triggers this non-verbal self-experience. For example, say I am in a meeting and I say something and a colleague who has a very strong presence disagrees with me emphatically, and his or her position is supported by the others present. In some states of mind, this wouldn't bother me too much. But sometimes, I am more vulnerable, and this experience will become "evidence" to support the negative, deeply entrenched, feelings I have about myself, that are almost impervious to logical, verbal thought. So, I might not even know why I feel so awful just then, because the incident in the meeting resonated with deep non-verbal feelings without crossing through the process of having conscious thoughts (eg, "he hated my idea, they all hate my idea, I am stupid, etc.). It is like it just skips these steps altogether!
There is a small book I once read that resonated with me very strongly, about cognitive therapy of schemas. It is titled something like Cognitive Therapy of Personality Disorders (a term I find rather unhelpful, btw, so try to ignore it as I did!): A Schema Approach. Something like that.
What was helpful was a questionnaire in the back that has you identify negative "schema", ie, deeply embedded beliefs about yourself, in a number of different areas, such as sense of competence, lovability, self-control, etc.
The questionnair put into words some of these non-verbal feelings I have always had about myself (unlovable, etc.). Interestingly, when I did the questionnaire, I realized I had made a lot of change in areas about competence, etc. Had I filled out the questionnaire earlier in my life, I would have endoresed all the items having to do with feeling stupid and incompetent, etc. I still have some issues there, but not like I used to. So, change is possible, I guess.
In therapy, I have done a lot of work in trying to tolerate exploring these negative feelings without being overwhelmed, and also to bring together this way I experience myself with other ways (more positive or neutral) which have always seemed to exist separately, like on different tv channels or different computer screens. At the moment, under certain circumstances, I can "see" both at the same time, even though they are still somewhat separate. It is like having an inset on your tv, so you can watch another channel, or having two windows open at the same time on your computer. Before, it was more like bouncing back and forth from intolerably negative self-feelings to tolerable, hopeful self-feelings, etc., but they obviated each other. Now, I can allow myself to acknowledge both, but am still frightened of the negative taking over like some sort of horrible monster. Having both windows open at the same time, so to speak, allows me to apply my logical abilities while still having access to the illogical feelings. Still, a part of me still believes those feelings are true, even tho another part of me sees them as irrational beliefs.
Does this make sense?
Posted by noa on October 10, 2000, at 12:50:15
In reply to noa- please elaborate, posted by ksvt on October 9, 2000, at 19:59:38
ksvt--here is what you were referring to, my earlier post--it was in the thread about hypotheses about online communication:
1. The act of writing fosters self-expression, self-reflection, and cognitive restructuring. (1.2)
Comment: very much so, at times. For me, a significant problem is that a big part of my sense of self that is negative, is non-verbal, and feels beyond the reach of language. Writing helps in the attempt to bridge my cognitive/logical/verbal self to this non-verbal sense of self. I wonder if others have similar experiences?
Posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 21:49:48
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by noa on October 10, 2000, at 12:47:07
> ksvt, I think I understand what you are talking about.
>
> Sometimes, I think that the thought is there, but it is so automatic and perhaps not coded in the usual way (verbal, sequential, logical), but is more of an image memory, or a sensory memory of how it feels to be me.
>
> Often, I think that there is actually an antecedent that triggers this non-verbal self-experience. For example, say I am in a meeting and I say something and a colleague who has a very strong presence disagrees with me emphatically, and his or her position is supported by the others present. In some states of mind, this wouldn't bother me too much. But sometimes, I am more vulnerable, and this experience will become "evidence" to support the negative, deeply entrenched, feelings I have about myself, that are almost impervious to logical, verbal thought. So, I might not even know why I feel so awful just then, because the incident in the meeting resonated with deep non-verbal feelings without crossing through the process of having conscious thoughts (eg, "he hated my idea, they all hate my idea, I am stupid, etc.). It is like it just skips these steps altogether!
>
> There is a small book I once read that resonated with me very strongly, about cognitive therapy of schemas. It is titled something like Cognitive Therapy of Personality Disorders (a term I find rather unhelpful, btw, so try to ignore it as I did!): A Schema Approach. Something like that.
>
> What was helpful was a questionnaire in the back that has you identify negative "schema", ie, deeply embedded beliefs about yourself, in a number of different areas, such as sense of competence, lovability, self-control, etc.
>
> The questionnair put into words some of these non-verbal feelings I have always had about myself (unlovable, etc.). Interestingly, when I did the questionnaire, I realized I had made a lot of change in areas about competence, etc. Had I filled out the questionnaire earlier in my life, I would have endoresed all the items having to do with feeling stupid and incompetent, etc. I still have some issues there, but not like I used to. So, change is possible, I guess.
>
> In therapy, I have done a lot of work in trying to tolerate exploring these negative feelings without being overwhelmed, and also to bring together this way I experience myself with other ways (more positive or neutral) which have always seemed to exist separately, like on different tv channels or different computer screens. At the moment, under certain circumstances, I can "see" both at the same time, even though they are still somewhat separate. It is like having an inset on your tv, so you can watch another channel, or having two windows open at the same time on your computer. Before, it was more like bouncing back and forth from intolerably negative self-feelings to tolerable, hopeful self-feelings, etc., but they obviated each other. Now, I can allow myself to acknowledge both, but am still frightened of the negative taking over like some sort of horrible monster. Having both windows open at the same time, so to speak, allows me to apply my logical abilities while still having access to the illogical feelings. Still, a part of me still believes those feelings are true, even tho another part of me sees them as irrational beliefs.
>
> Does this make sense?Noa - I think what you wrote makes alot of sense. When I first started being treated for depression, I remember that depressive feelings would sort of sweep over me like waves. Altho I could see no precipitant, my pdoc at the time worked alot with me on identifying triggers, and generally there were some, and these feelings didn't just come out of nowhere. However I think you're right about skipping steps. Sometimes even if there is a discernable trigger, I'm not consciously drawing negative conclusions from whatever circumstances served as the trigger. I just rather abruptly feel very overwelmed. It's reactive and because it's not a state I've "talked" myself into, it's difficult to anticipate or avoid. What complicates this for me is that sometimes depressive feelings trigger these very negative recurrent visual images. It seems like I don't even realize that these very nonverbal negative feelings have taken over until I'm aware that I'm thinking alot about these visual images. What all of this boils down to is that looking at my thought patterns cognitively has been quite helpful in counteracting specific negative thoughts. The more generalized "I just don't care for who I am" sorts of feelings are more difficult to trace. I have to believe, however, that there is some level of self talk and connective thinking going on and I just haven't identified it well enough. Thanks for pondering this with me. ksvt
Posted by medlib on October 11, 2000, at 1:03:44
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 21:49:48
kvst--
I call something akin to what you are describing my state of "Not-Okayness" (from the old book, "I'm Okay, You're Okay"). But, for me, it feels like a generalized, pre-existing condition--an abstract miasma which has no discernable specifics. I experience it as me--my permanent state of being, a screen upon which all life events--good and bad--are overlaid. To "be" something other than that, I'd have to "be" someone else.
Noa, I'd love to have PIP--2 channels available at the same time--what a lovely metaphor, and a fine therapeutic goal.
Well wishes---medlib
Posted by Noa on October 11, 2000, at 10:17:55
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 21:49:48
I think you are on the right track, even if this is a difficult process (it is). As impervious as these self-experiences, non-verbal as they are, might be to dissection through logical, verbal questioning, they can be approached and perhaps shrunk down to more manageable size. That is how I am thinking of the goal for myself, anyway.
I, too have visual associations. For me, one of the most powerful, is an image of myself as a toddler alone in the hospital, crying uncontrollably, feeling overpowered by loss, abandonment feelings. Feeling not only unloved and abandoned, but like my own impotent rage is going to destroy me and the entire world with it because no one is there to comfort me. And, concluding, of course, that I must be unlovable and fundamentally defective as a human being to be in such a state where I feel so overwhelmingly hopeless.
Now, how much of this visual/visceral/emotional image is "accurate" I cannot say. I was in the hospital then, and several other times in early childhood, and did feel this way. I do have an anecdote from a friend of my parents that would confirm this kind of thing (that I was so unconsolable this woman's husband couldn't bring himself to enter the room and see me, it was so heartbreaking for him, and that my own parents "couldn't" visit me for a few days and sent these friends in their place). However, the visual image that I see in my minds eye, sees me from without, not from within. I picture myself in the hospital crib. Perhaps this is because I have build this image from the images of the babies I have visited in a local, poorly funded public hospital, where I have volunteered (and where it is incredibly heartbreaking!!!) The visceral/emotional part of the "memory" however, is from the inside--I can "become" that baby fairly easily if I allow myself to enter the image.
But now I can see it all on the split screen, PIP, though this is a new skill. Medlib, it IS a good goal. It is still a big issue for me, but a bit more manageable now that I can do the PIP/split scree/several windows open thing.
I am glad you guys can relate because describing this seems so hard. It is an experience of the mind that is so "unreal" in many ways. The technological metaphors come close, which helps.
Posted by quilter on October 13, 2000, at 23:52:17
In reply to Re: non-verbal self-experiences--ksvt, medlib, posted by Noa on October 11, 2000, at 10:17:55
> I, too have visual associations. For me, one of the most powerful, is an image of myself as a toddler alone in the hospital, crying uncontrollably, feeling overpowered by loss, abandonment feelings. Feeling not only unloved and abandoned, but like my own impotent rage is going to destroy me and the entire world with it because no one is there to comfort me. And, concluding, of course, that I must be unlovable and fundamentally defective as a human being to be in such a state where I feel so overwhelmingly hopeless.
Noa, this paragraph sent a chill of recognition down my spine. I have no reason to associate it with a real experience, but your description of the nonverbal elements was so very familiar... I had not realized how much my own anger made me feel frightened. I have been aware for years of how much other people's anger seemed threatening even when directed elsewhere, and of my need for control of myself even if it meant taking my own life.The sense of hopelessness and abandonment are a part of my worst feelings and the idea that I must be a bad person to have these things happening to me is so very basic to my understanding of my life that I hadn't realized it was the conclusion of a very small child.
Thank you for being able to put some of this out where it can be examined. Recognition is half the battle.
Quilter
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:09:11
In reply to Re: non-verbal self-experiences--ksvt, medlib » Noa, posted by quilter on October 13, 2000, at 23:52:17
And thanks to you----having other people be able to relate to this really helps me.
This is the end of the thread.
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