Posted by ksvt on October 10, 2000, at 21:49:48
In reply to Re: ksvt, posted by noa on October 10, 2000, at 12:47:07
> ksvt, I think I understand what you are talking about.
>
> Sometimes, I think that the thought is there, but it is so automatic and perhaps not coded in the usual way (verbal, sequential, logical), but is more of an image memory, or a sensory memory of how it feels to be me.
>
> Often, I think that there is actually an antecedent that triggers this non-verbal self-experience. For example, say I am in a meeting and I say something and a colleague who has a very strong presence disagrees with me emphatically, and his or her position is supported by the others present. In some states of mind, this wouldn't bother me too much. But sometimes, I am more vulnerable, and this experience will become "evidence" to support the negative, deeply entrenched, feelings I have about myself, that are almost impervious to logical, verbal thought. So, I might not even know why I feel so awful just then, because the incident in the meeting resonated with deep non-verbal feelings without crossing through the process of having conscious thoughts (eg, "he hated my idea, they all hate my idea, I am stupid, etc.). It is like it just skips these steps altogether!
>
> There is a small book I once read that resonated with me very strongly, about cognitive therapy of schemas. It is titled something like Cognitive Therapy of Personality Disorders (a term I find rather unhelpful, btw, so try to ignore it as I did!): A Schema Approach. Something like that.
>
> What was helpful was a questionnaire in the back that has you identify negative "schema", ie, deeply embedded beliefs about yourself, in a number of different areas, such as sense of competence, lovability, self-control, etc.
>
> The questionnair put into words some of these non-verbal feelings I have always had about myself (unlovable, etc.). Interestingly, when I did the questionnaire, I realized I had made a lot of change in areas about competence, etc. Had I filled out the questionnaire earlier in my life, I would have endoresed all the items having to do with feeling stupid and incompetent, etc. I still have some issues there, but not like I used to. So, change is possible, I guess.
>
> In therapy, I have done a lot of work in trying to tolerate exploring these negative feelings without being overwhelmed, and also to bring together this way I experience myself with other ways (more positive or neutral) which have always seemed to exist separately, like on different tv channels or different computer screens. At the moment, under certain circumstances, I can "see" both at the same time, even though they are still somewhat separate. It is like having an inset on your tv, so you can watch another channel, or having two windows open at the same time on your computer. Before, it was more like bouncing back and forth from intolerably negative self-feelings to tolerable, hopeful self-feelings, etc., but they obviated each other. Now, I can allow myself to acknowledge both, but am still frightened of the negative taking over like some sort of horrible monster. Having both windows open at the same time, so to speak, allows me to apply my logical abilities while still having access to the illogical feelings. Still, a part of me still believes those feelings are true, even tho another part of me sees them as irrational beliefs.
>
> Does this make sense?Noa - I think what you wrote makes alot of sense. When I first started being treated for depression, I remember that depressive feelings would sort of sweep over me like waves. Altho I could see no precipitant, my pdoc at the time worked alot with me on identifying triggers, and generally there were some, and these feelings didn't just come out of nowhere. However I think you're right about skipping steps. Sometimes even if there is a discernable trigger, I'm not consciously drawing negative conclusions from whatever circumstances served as the trigger. I just rather abruptly feel very overwelmed. It's reactive and because it's not a state I've "talked" myself into, it's difficult to anticipate or avoid. What complicates this for me is that sometimes depressive feelings trigger these very negative recurrent visual images. It seems like I don't even realize that these very nonverbal negative feelings have taken over until I'm aware that I'm thinking alot about these visual images. What all of this boils down to is that looking at my thought patterns cognitively has been quite helpful in counteracting specific negative thoughts. The more generalized "I just don't care for who I am" sorts of feelings are more difficult to trace. I have to believe, however, that there is some level of self talk and connective thinking going on and I just haven't identified it well enough. Thanks for pondering this with me. ksvt
poster:ksvt
thread:901
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20000813/msgs/947.html