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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on July 17, 2011, at 19:47:08
Sorry for hijacking your thread above, Anemone. I should have known better, but the thread hit a nerve of what I've been going through.
Dinah, you said that you didn't think my psychiatrist was warm and fuzzy with anyone--I've heard him with children and he is, and i guess what I want is to be treated like one of those children, when the whole point, of course, is to grow up, which is, again, highly rated. Recently, he mentioned that my little girl no longer showed up in session and he thinks I act more like a teenager now, rebellious is I think what he was aiming for. But I don't want to ever be the woman, that's much too scary, even though the sexual feeling have been present for years. Ha, I thought I was going to be immune from that.
Transference is hell, no matter how it plays out. It's a mix of who the person represents to you PLUS who they really are and it's hard to know which is real. At least for me, that is.
I am almost finished with therapy. I can feel it. But I do have this large stumbling block in my way, whether I decide to smash through the rock or politely dance around it is what I have left. I have to come to terms with my feelings of intense attachment for my pdoc and somehow or other, and whatever time it takes, I will get there. Or I will decide to leave, satisifed with my lot in life, with what he has given me. It will be a compromise, but life is a compromise. right now I guess I'm still fighting him.
My motherly therapist... so hard to write about her. She was one of the most wonderful people I think I ever met. She may have been doing her job (as I claim my pdoc is "just doing his job"), but she was the most compassionate, loving, kind, etc. therapist. she didn't have to be, but she always way.
I stopped seeing her about 1 1/2 yrs ago because I wanted to start flying on my own, and also, there was also too much of a renactment of father, mother, daughter in the triad between her, me, and my pdoc. She gave me wings, I had internalized what she taught me, but she always said she would be there for me if I needed her.
I saw her once in the first year, I think, not much more than that. In the past 6 months I got in touch with her to try to sort out my "daddy" issues and it was very difficult to see her. I think she has early Alzheimers. She is barely 70, I think, or not much older than that. In scheduling an appt, she would call me four or five times the day before to make sure we had the time right, not remembering that she had already called me. When I saw her last, she was forgetful in session, which she never, ever was, and then she was supposed to contact me for a follow-up session after checking her schedule. Haven't heard from her since. I can call her if I want, I know, but... this 4 or 5 times of getting in touch with me the day before the appt started a little before I left. She denies anything is wrong and it wouldn't be kind to point out how far she has fallen.
I still believe in her and love her, and if I need her, I would call her.
I really want to be through with therapy. I told my psychiatrist the other night that I will never, ever start over with someone else. this is it. I've done my time and I will be done when I finish with him.
I just wish it wasn't always so rocky. He's just so cold and so harsh.
Hope everyone is hanging in there. I'm ready for Camp Comfort. I know I haven't been around. My life has been so busy (which is why my psych thinks I'm so much better), but I don't necessarily agree.
I don't know. I feel so alone in this process with him. Without my t, there is no love, compassion or empathy and I guess I'm drawing a line in the sand. I deserve that. every human being deserves that and if he refuses to provide it (because I do believe he provides it, just not to me), then I have to make the decision to move on. I will, but not until I am past the transference.
antigua
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 17, 2011, at 22:36:55
In reply to Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by antigua3 on July 17, 2011, at 19:47:08
Hi,
What struck me about your post was what you said about your t, the memory issues. I am so sorry that is happening, she's pretty young too.
It's a precious thing, a good therapy relationship.
And what you said about the transference mixing with who they really are, so very true.
Not much else to say, you just make good sense to me.
Take care :-)
Posted by lucielu2 on July 18, 2011, at 8:09:37
In reply to Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by antigua3 on July 17, 2011, at 19:47:08
That is so sad about your T, Antigua. That must leave quite a void for you, which may be causing additional frustration with your pdoc and playing up his shortcomings. I remember that you have always said that he is the polar opposite of your T. You say he is warm and fuzzy with kids - maybe he is not with other adults? Many T's react quite differently with kids than adults. And when he said you were like a teenager - I went through a similar age progression in therapy. It felt weird, and I used to kid him about "aging" me. But teenagers are not only rebellious, they are also trying out their wings. Maybe that is what he meant too.And thank you for sharing your experience with college departures on the other thread. It helped me to hear someone else articulate the same things I've been feeling. I also had an older child go off to college, live at home for a year, and then move away afterwards. It was very hard, her moving away, but she has been eager to keep in touch which has helped. In a funny way our relationship has become closer, though of course the day to day contact isn't there and I do miss that.
Lucie
Posted by lucielu2 on July 18, 2011, at 8:14:33
In reply to Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by antigua3 on July 17, 2011, at 19:47:08
You know, medications can cause the sorts of symptoms you've described in your T. My mom went through that and, because she's in her 80s, everyone thought she had Alzheimer's. But it turned out to be a med and once she was off it, she was as lucid as ever. Just a thought.
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 18, 2011, at 21:25:30
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by lucielu2 on July 18, 2011, at 8:09:37
Transference is so hard. A couple of months ago, I met with my T and p-doc together and we (they) decided she (my T) should be my primary therapist. My p-doc said my transference issues were almost psychotic. I got very upset by this and asked him what he meant. He said I saw him as wonderful and he wasn't so wonderful. I said I don't see you as wonderful in some sort of magical way. It's just that you have been wonderful to me. I still can't quite come to grips with all my feelings toward him. I don't feel this way with my T at all. She is lovely and helpful and I am grateful to her, but even after agreeing that she would be primarily responsible for my care, I still wanted (needed) to see my p-doc weekly. I just need to see him.
As far as children leaving home, I have just one daughter and she moved 5 hours away to go to school 5 years ago. She kept in close touch and we visited regularly until this year. Now, at 23, she is really into her own life and neglects to call or email regularly. When she first left, I was in my second year of therapy and was working through a lot of my sense of loss, so it wasn't so bad. But now I feel really cut off from her and get very depressed and sad about it. I know that she will go through this phase and reconnect again (we were extremely close) but it's hard.
Posted by Daisym on July 18, 2011, at 23:41:41
In reply to Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by antigua3 on July 17, 2011, at 19:47:08
It is one of those catch-22s of therapy - your pathology might be coloring how you see things but things also might really be as bad as you think. But if you keep insisting that things are bad, it all seems to get attributed to your pathology anyway, so where does that leave you?
First, I want to say that I'm sad about your old therapist. She was so perfect for you for such a long time. I think you have ended it the way I would have. It seems kind to hold her in your heart and not try to get something she can't give anymore. Which of course, isn't her fault. One of life's cruel truths about aging.
It is amazing that you've stuck it out with your pdoc for so long. As hard as it has been, you must have been getting something from this relationship. I do think the return might be dwindling now, which makes it harder. Perhaps you needed a male to be really mad at for awhile and someone to battle with, and he was willing to do tht. Here is what I'm most struck by though - whether he really is warmer or more nurturing with other people doesn't matter - the fact that you perceive him to be is the issue. Even more important, you don't feel his warmth and caring in a genuine way - so his telling you he cares doesn't really help. You don't feel it. So how can you work towards taking it in and how could he adjust so that he is more overtly caring and warm? Him refusing to make any adjustments because he thinks you are wrong discounts your perceptions and your reality. And isn't that what your hold childhood was like? I would be frustrated with this approach as well.
You mentioned you read a book about attachment approaches. Something about your pdoc makes me think of someone who is avoidantly attached. These people pull away when someone gets close. You most likely have an unresolved attachment style and so your pull to attach might trigger his need to avoid - and you do this sort of unconscious dance together. We should never assume that just because someone is a MH professional that they don't have attachment issues. You say the best thing he has done for you is provide stability - he hasn't abandoned you. I agree, this is a huge thing, to trust that he won't. But staying in a relationship that doesn't feel good, trying over and over again to get from the other person something they can't, or don't want to give, sounds like an old pattern to me. Therapy should not only be about really knowing yourself but also should help you know how to get what you need and avoid things that hurt you.
I agree transference is hell. I hope you work it all through very soon.
Posted by antigua3 on July 24, 2011, at 12:15:41
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist » antigua3, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 17, 2011, at 22:36:55
Thanks for your kind words. It has taken me YEARS to understand that transference isn't all about us, although many Ts or pdocs try to make us (me) feel that way. I know when I push certain buttons, I will get a certain reaction from my pdoc, and I know that response is coming from him, the person, and not the professional as he always claims. But hey, getting any kind of response instead of the flat affect is fun! He rarely takes the bait although I try very hard. I know it's part of my pattern and this is something to still work on,
thanks again,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 24, 2011, at 12:31:53
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by lucielu2 on July 18, 2011, at 8:09:37
Hi Lucie,
Yes, this whole college thing can be such a roller coaster ride. My first one went off (a boy) and we didn't have much day-to-day contact. What we did have was an agreement that he would call when he really had time to talk--like for an hour, really--and with the little snippets of texts or contact with his father, we heard from him regularly and then once every two weeks or less we would have a really great conversation, covering everything. That seemed to work with us. Now that he is out of college, and surprisingly moved back here (which I never expected, but it's probably only for another year), he calls me and gives me a hard time about not being in touch enough! It's a funny change of events.With my daughter going off, I know there will be much more frequent contact, but I don't see heart to heart phone calls. We just don't operate that way. But she will be home so much more often than her brother, so it's a tradeoff. I am overwhelmed with sadness at the thought of her going and I have really been caught off guard by that. I'm literally counting down the days with her and yesterday I started crying just thinking about her being gone. She is such a force of nature in this house, with all of her friends coming and going, loudly, I might add, and it will be so quiet without her. I still have a very quiet younger son who will be at home, but like I said, we keep redefining our family. I've decided that's ok because we all know we are a unit and we still find time to be together as such and our hearts expand as new people are brought in--my son's girlfriend, for example. We just welcome her because she is so important to my son. (that's a whole other conversation to have...)
Thank you for the med suggestion about my T. I think I will try to call her and see her, just for comfort's sake. She really has been so wonderful to me, and I see her work everyday in the well-adjusted, happy kids I have. I could never have done it without her. Do they give out a "T of the Year" award? If so, she's nominated... Anyone else? Daisy's T is a given and may have a lock on it.
take care,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 24, 2011, at 12:40:32
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by emmanuel98 on July 18, 2011, at 21:25:30
Hang in there, it will get better. It is so very, very hard and your feelings are genuine. We all know that. It's learning to find a way to live with them, to get through them, and to come out the other side stronger. I know it works, because I have come through it with my T and while I don't know if that will be possible with my pdoc, I do know what the ending is "supposed" to look like.
The best thing I can offer is to go ahead and feel these feelings and express them the best you can. I HATE when I'm told that just talking about it with my pdoc is a step forward, when I don't see it that way, but it really is. Sharing the feelings, saying them out loud (despite how very difficult that can be, at least for me) helps to start releasing the power these feelings have over me, or at least I hope so.
I'm glad you have the support you seem to need. Just to keep at it. Being in the middle is so tough, but have faith that you will get where you need to be. But you have to have faith, or take a leap of faith, that you can trust them while balancing an understanding that they are worthy of your trust.
Therapy is so complicated and we live so much of it in our head. Or at least that's how I've always felt about it.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on July 24, 2011, at 13:10:23
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist » antigua3, posted by Daisym on July 18, 2011, at 23:41:41
Oh Daisy,
You are so wise, as always. Thank you so much. I think you are right about my pdoc's attachment style. I hadn't considered that at all, but that is the way he is. The harder I push, the harder he pushes back. I'm fairly confident about my own attachment style, as you described, but I hadn't thought about his. He hides behind the "Dr, professional, businessman" persona so he never has to show who he really is. We had a huge fight last time about this--and I think it's the last time I am going to try and reach him. His mantra has always been, "What's the best predictor of future behavior? Answer: Past behavior." And I always argue that he insists I change that pattern while he never does.But he actually suggested this time that perhaps he might "evolve" in this relationship. That made me laugh because he believes so strongly in his consistency and he has told me that he has selected this therapeutic approach with me--what I refer to as distant, cold and uncaring--but he may not in fact be that way at all and I just don't see it. When you've been through the sexual abuse by a trusting, adult (my father as you well know) and the betrayal, which leaves a lasting mark that I have not been able to completely eradicate when it comes to me, it leaves me with a distortion of who he is. He, in fact, has been nice to me. He returns my texts, answered my emergency one on a Sunday, returns my calls, tells me how far I've come and is generally very complimentary. But, he is never part of the journey, really. I have no idea how he feels about me and he says that no, I really do, so why is it so hard for me to accept that? What do I have to give up/what long-held belief about men do I have to accept has been wrong when I'm faced with this man in front of me? Why is it so important to me that I hear he cares and that I've made a difference in his life? Why doesn't he ever say that "we've made great progress?" Why are these things so important? That's what I'm grappling with right now because they don't have to be important, but right now I feel like that 9 yr old girl (not the teenager) who is so angry at her father because he left her.
I think I'm still holding onto the accountability piece. i want to hold him accountable because I don't have anyone to hold accountable for what happened. My abusers are dead and my mother never will, which I have accepted. So getting over this piece is important. But, like I said, my goal is to come to a place of acceptance so I can leave. I told him last time, "I get it. You're never going to change." and he never will. Maybe the word I'm searching for is "indignation"-- I feel that a lot toward him.
I know most people would be/are surprised that i've stayed with him this long, but we have done some great work together (but he never would include himself; it's always me) despite the "tough" nature of his approach. So why can't I step back and say, yea, he's a decent guy, he has done a lot for me and he does like me and care for me? Because as you said, he is denying my interpretation of our relationship, and won't correct it if in fact my interp is wrong when I desperately want him to. coming to terms with that is key. Why is the affirmation so important?
All that said, I am almost finished. I can feel it. But I have to come to terms with the intensity of the attachment. It does wax and wane between visits, but I do feel so attached. I was so angry last time I saw him and told him so, especially as it relates to attachment styles because I am an attachment figure and I know what it means to be one and he isn't fulfilling that for me, nor will he ever. So, acceptance of his limitations is important. But the last thing I will say is that it felt great to let him have it, in a way that he understands best--rationally and logically. But the emotion and hurt feelings are still there.
Sorry to be so long. It has been so long. Thank you for writing,
antigua
Posted by lucielu2 on July 25, 2011, at 12:45:33
In reply to Re: Motherly Therapist and Detached Daddy Psychiatrist, posted by antigua3 on July 24, 2011, at 12:31:53
>Do they give out a "T of the Year" award? If so, she's nominated... Anyone else? Daisy's T is a given and may have a lock on it.
Mine is up there too. I feel about him the way you feel about your T. He has been steadfast and caring for the past 9 years, and that despite some pretty extensive turbulence in the early years. Even then, he always kept me safe, "held" and on track. He always relates to me in an respectful way and really listens to my ideas. He's flexible and admits when he's wrong. I know that I mean a lot to him but have always felt secure within his boundaries. We have had many ruptures over the years but the relationship has always been repaired productively. We have done so much great work together and I owe him so much. The greatest gift he gave me was trust, and that was gained by his constancy and letting me see the person he really is, within limits we are both comfortable with. I feel so fortunate to have had him as my T.
Posted by antigua3 on July 25, 2011, at 16:30:26
In reply to T of the Year award, posted by lucielu2 on July 25, 2011, at 12:45:33
Sounds like you have a winner, too. It's interesting what makes a T a good "fit" for each of us. It takes all kinds, but, then again, we're all unique too!
take care,
antigua
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 25, 2011, at 21:20:03
In reply to Re: T of the Year award » lucielu2, posted by antigua3 on July 25, 2011, at 16:30:26
Well I nominate my p-doc, who I've seen pretty much weekly for six years now (though we've recently cut back and had cut back before, then started again -- usually me saying let's cut back, I'm better, then falling apart). Once I told him I wanted to give him something exquisite -- compose a beautiful piece of music for him, paint him a lovely picture, write him a wonderful poem, something. He said, you've given me your trust and a relationship of mutual trust is the most exquisite gift I can imagine.
Posted by lucielu2 on July 26, 2011, at 17:34:12
In reply to Re: T of the Year award, posted by emmanuel98 on July 25, 2011, at 21:20:03
What a lovely sentiment! Your p-doc sounds great.
This is the end of the thread.
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