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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deerock on December 13, 2009, at 10:14:58
i seem to be going back and forth between having insight into myself and realizing that i push people away and trap them into feeling scared of me....and feeling like it's the people who get scared who are at fault and not a destrucive pattern i play out.
what is scary about this...is when i think its other people's fault, i have very little insight into it. its as if in that moment, i actually believe it i did nothing wrong, didnt push anyone away and that people just misunderstand me.
to be more specific, in this recent situation where my T got scared of me, i sometimes see i tried to get her to be afraid and to feel i was horrible. i succeeded. and other times, i feel like its not my fault, if she was smart enough, that would have never happened. and when i think its not my fault if she was smart enough...i actually believe that its true. maybe this makes no sense.
is this odd?
Posted by Nadezda on December 13, 2009, at 11:58:30
In reply to flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by deerock on December 13, 2009, at 10:14:58
That happens to me when something really important gets stirred up in a way that I'm using (for unconscious reason) self-detructively. I'll have a very strong reaction to something that someone does, that's extremely important or meaningful to me. I don't really understand why I get set off, but the form it takes is like what you're describing.
Sometimes I feel that the person has "done" something, and is "causing' or intentionally acting so as to evoke, my reaction; other times, I think I'm sort of reading things into the situation and the other person hasnt' done anything at all. Then my reaction just seems like my personal craziness and I get really upset that it's all just in my head, and that I"m trapped with this craziness that I have.
Looking at it later, these things seem like terrible emotional tangles I get into, that can't ever be resolved-- but the real issue is the out-of-control feelings that I have-- ie the intensity of my own reaction-- not whether it's "justified" or not. Life throws up lots of dislocating or uncomfortable situations-- but it's having equanimity and being able to handle one's own feelings that matters-- not who did or didn't cause them. It's really that you live in two such contradictory and unstable realitiers at all that's the problem.
So I'd really try to give up on the question of whether you or your T are in the wrong, so to speak-- and focus on how to work on not having that reaction-- whether your T let you down, or whether you were pushing her away in a scary fashion. All of us can be scary, needy, demanding, hurtful, etc-- or whatever we're focused on-- and our Ts can let us down, act hurtfully, be rejecting or insensitive, say the wrong thing, etc-- also. That's how people-- and life-- is.
It's hard to talk about this-- but it's called "splitting" in the psychodynamic world--. It's seen as having extreme and unintegrated ways of seeing yourself or others or situations, as all-good or all-bad--as being unable to find a middle ground where all are both, and therefore not dangerous, or ideal-- And in this middle ground, you don't need to protect yourself from dangerous others-- or fear yourself as a terrible or bad person.
I don't mean that rationally you can't see that eveything isn't all-good or all-bad. Rationally we all know that. But some of us emotionally can't experience that=-- so we move from idealizing people to seeing them as dangerous, or callous, or actively malicious, or deeply incompetent.
I don't for example thing your T handled this wonderfully. But I also wonder if you weren't over time, and perhaps leading up to telling her your fantasy, more scary than you realize. Your calm itself might have been scary-- if you'd been actively very angry in recent sessions. She might have taken that as a sudden shift into really having an intention, as opposed to just raging without real will to act. She might have momentarily thought you could even act on your fantasy-- or at least given in to the fear that you might. But every T will let you down sometimes. Every T has weak points, blind spots, makes bad judgments about handling delicate and explosive situations, etc.
So it really is,as you were saying several posts back, a question of fit. Is this therapist, with her particular limitations, the right one, the "good enough" one for you. She doesn't need to be all knowning, all kind etc-- just good enough to help you work things through for a better life.
You did a consult, and that T thought it made sense to go back-- but you are the ultimate authority. You'll know your own answer, if you look into yourself. You, after all, are the only one who can know.
Try not to blame yourself for flip-flopping-- or her for not being exactly the T you needed at the moment. (Or maybe she was.... you never know.. sometimes the moment when a T lets you down is as helpful as when s/he comes through for you with flying colors... Therapy is like that.)
If you can make a commitment to her-- you'll flip-flop again, I'm sure-- it takes time and struggle to work out of these deep issues-- but if you stick to it and the work, through the flip-flops-- with her or with a male T, or another female T-- you'll make progress. In time, it can become less and less-- and you can become more clear in your own mind, and more fully yourself.
It is scary when it's happening, I know. I hope you feel calmer and less in turmoil soon.
Nadezda
Posted by deerock on December 13, 2009, at 12:24:21
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by Nadezda on December 13, 2009, at 11:58:30
Nadezda, thanks so much. your post makes much sense. i will read it a few more times to digest. seriously, thanks very much.
i think a lot of things scared my T.
as i think of this more, i realize how what i said was so scary. its not what i said as much as how easy it would be for me to make it a reality given someone i know. i think thats what scared her. this makes much more sense now. that poor woman. i bet she sh*t her pants. she is a freaking saint for continuing to work with me. i can see why she was so frightened...and i dont think i even meant to do that. add to this that i was abusing sleep meds when this went on. wow. this is getting interesting.
im going to re-read what you wrote.
i think the biggest challenge here is trying to determine what you said quite well:
You did a consult, and that T thought it made sense to go back-- but you are the ultimate authority. You'll know your own answer, if you look into yourself. You, after all, are the only one who can know.nadezda, thanks again.
Posted by emilyp on December 13, 2009, at 22:20:19
In reply to flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by deerock on December 13, 2009, at 10:14:58
Nadezda gave a much more complete and probably more empathetic answer. But nonetheless, I thought I would add my two cents.
I was struck by your comment that "i sometimes see i tried to get her to be afraid and to feel i was horrible. i succeeded. and other times, i feel like its not my fault, if she was smart enough, that would have never happened"
I understand the frustrations and issues around therapy and a relationships with therapists. I have had plenty of my own frustrations. And I have not always acted appropriately with my therapist. But trying to make anyone afraid - a therapist or anyone - seems like a rather radical and excessive reaction to her. It is one thing to ask her to be "smart enough" to understand if you were rude or maybe even hurtful. But from my perspective, fear is something at a much different and I guess I can understand her reaction. When faced with fear, people react on their emotions - it is a survival mechanism that is needed for protective purposes. Usually people don't have total control over their reactions to fear (i.e. the flight or fight response).
I think you are doing the right thing by sticking with her. But even more important, you should really discuss why you would want her to be fearful of you? Is this behavior that happens with others - which would obviously affect your ability to maintain decent relationships? I cannot imagine that fear is healthy for any relationship.
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 14, 2009, at 2:17:35
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by emilyp on December 13, 2009, at 22:20:19
Deerock - Could I ask you why are you in therapy? What issues are you trying to work on in the first place?
Posted by deerock on December 14, 2009, at 3:38:45
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by emmanuel98 on December 14, 2009, at 2:17:35
intimacy, trust, anxiety, self hatred. the usual stuff.
Posted by deerock on December 14, 2009, at 3:51:21
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by emilyp on December 13, 2009, at 22:20:19
hi emilyp, im not sure if its fear that i wanted her to feel. maybe i said that wrong.i think it was more disgust. our whole relationship is based on my feeling like a leper and her feeling that im just fine. i never believe her and then i get angry when she says she cant see how aweful i am. i think i wanted her to feel my pain. i dont think i really wanted to frighten her.
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 14, 2009, at 10:44:44
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self » emmanuel98, posted by deerock on December 14, 2009, at 3:38:45
> intimacy, trust, anxiety, self hatred. the usual stuff.
Not to get too personal, but what about intimacy and trust and self-hatred. I guess what I'm wondering is whether you've had issues in the past with people feeling frightened of you.
Posted by southernsky on December 14, 2009, at 15:05:34
In reply to flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by deerock on December 13, 2009, at 10:14:58
Hey Deerock,
I was looking stuff up about my situation and came across something that I thought might be helpful to direct you to:
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/sex_love.htm
Scroll down to "The Love-Hate Flip-flop".
Might not relate exactly to your specifics, but it reminded me of your situation. Hope it helps..
Btw-that's a great site to learn about situations that occur in therapy. I've never found another site so informative and well written when it comes to common occurrences, conflicts and feelings that arise during the course of psychotherapy. Take care
Posted by Nadezda on December 16, 2009, at 9:55:45
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by southernsky on December 14, 2009, at 15:05:34
That looks like a really interesting website. The author wrote a book that seems to be interested in religion, but I wondered if his psychological approach is primarily Lacanian? Do you happen to know anything about where he's coming from theoretically?
thanks,
Nadezda
Posted by lingonberry on December 16, 2009, at 12:22:51
In reply to Re: flip flopping from aware self to sick self, posted by southernsky on December 14, 2009, at 15:05:34
Yeah, I totally agree! Ive learned so much by reading this site, esp. "questions and answers about the psychotherapy process". It is just terrific!Lingon
> Hey Deerock,
>
> I was looking stuff up about my situation and came across something that I thought might be helpful to direct you to:
>
> http://www.guidetopsychology.com/sex_love.htm
>
> Scroll down to "The Love-Hate Flip-flop".
>
> Might not relate exactly to your specifics, but it reminded me of your situation. Hope it helps..
>
> Btw-that's a great site to learn about situations that occur in therapy. I've never found another site so informative and well written when it comes to common occurrences, conflicts and feelings that arise during the course of psychotherapy. Take care
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