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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 1:16:45
Hey there all. I have struggled throughout my therapy with the label of "needy" and "too much". I'm a sensitive, emotional soul.... and often that is "too much" for some people. And I'm not afraid to reach out to folks, but have tended to choose people in my life, like my family (mother in particular), who cannot deal with emotions, particularly intense emotions. So, I've often labeled myself, and been labeled.. needy.
I've been in therapy 2.5 years and we've talked about this on and off. My T has said.. everyone has needs. She's generally convinced me that that doesn't make me bad or "needy". But, it seems, it keeps coming up. I've connected/attached to her and felt "needy". She has assured me that my reaching out to her and needing her is in fact a healthy way to heal.... And I believe that.... In fact, I finally got to the point where I believed that my coping mechanisms of emailing her and calling her (to leave a message- not for response, but just to know someone out there is tracking me) are ok. She even said recently she looks forward to my messages. So... I finally finally... after LOTs of pain, felt ok about my need for her.
Then, today, we talked about fears of abandonment and a recent discussion that sometimes (and I HATE that I do this) I judge people in my head in order to feel better about myself. My brother worked very hard while we were growing up to make sure I knew I was stupid so that he felt smart. So, this behavior is one I abhor and I particularly abhor seeing it in myself. But, we learn what is in front of us I suppose. And I do it, though not "to people" so much as in my head.
Anyway, the discussion went further and we talked about the circumstances around when I do it. In work it's when I feel like I am afraid someone thinks I am/was wrong. In personal relationships I do it when I fear abandonment... when I feel someone isn't noticing my emotions or needs. So, my T pushed on the fact that I can only change my expectations. Maybe I expect more of my friends than I should? That I can change my expectations, but I can't change other people. And that maybe I do expect too much... maybe I do NEED too much is what I heard.
So, after 2.5 years of feeling like we were working on me not feeling bad about myself for having needs, I feel like my T finally said "yeah, you're needy". I know it's more complicated than that... but that's how it feels. And it feels ugly and horrible. And it creates a cycle... me feeling horrible and ugly and then needing my T. When, my immediate response is to try to turn it all off and try so very hard to not need her anymore. But now, I feel like I need her more than ever before... because I feel so awful about seeing myself as "needy".
Does that make ANY sense to anyone? Any advice? Anyone every been through anything similar. I'm so frustrated that I just finally got to the point of feeling like my reaching out to her wasn't something to cure. And now I feel like I have to prove that I can go cold turkey. Ugh...
I'd love any help/thoughts/reassurance you all have. I feel like my T and I have been working on reducing "self-hate" and this session just gave me a reason to pile it on...
WIP
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2009, at 8:26:35
In reply to feeling needy, posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 1:16:45
I think that what she was saying was about acceptance, not about judging you for your needs. And she was talking about your friends, not about your relationship with her.
How much you need someone is how much you need someone; it just is and it's not really good or bad.
Recognizing that there are times when those needs can be met and times when they won't be met is a separate matter. In therapy, your therapist has been clear on what needs she can meet. With your friends, it is something that depends on each individual relationship, each friend's boundaries and desire for closeness. It is only partially up to you, and the rest is totally beyond your power to change. Needing others more won't cause them to fill those needs. It hurts less to realistically test the boundaries, and to acknowledge the limits of each relationship. It's a matter of pragmatics.
Therapy is not friendship. And those same boundaries that smart so much when we run into them protect us in other ways.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on October 20, 2009, at 11:35:29
In reply to feeling needy, posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 1:16:45
>
> I've been in therapy 2.5 years and we've talked about this on and off. My T has said.. everyone has needs. She's generally convinced me that that doesn't make me bad or "needy". But, it seems, it keeps coming up. I've connected/attached to her and felt "needy". She has assured me that my reaching out to her and needing her is in fact a healthy way to heal.... And I believe that.... In fact, I finally got to the point where I believed that my coping mechanisms of emailing her and calling her (to leave a message- not for response, but just to know someone out there is tracking me) are ok. She even said recently she looks forward to my messages. So... I finally finally... after LOTs of pain, felt ok about my need for her.<<---flutterby--: This sounds very nice. I think, (if you don't mind me saying so), that you are brave.... I can't/won't accept that I need anyone.... seems terrifying....
>
> My brother worked very hard while we were growing up to make sure I knew I was stupid so that he felt smart.<<---flutterby--: Sounds just like several of my siblings. I'm sorry you experienced that too.
> , my T pushed on the fact that I can only change my expectations. Maybe I expect more of my friends than I should? That I can change my expectations, but I can't change other people. .<<---flutterby---: Yea, your T. is so right about not being able to change others, just ourselves(IMO). Maybe this thinking would help---- What if a friend expected you to react a certain way and you didn't (maybe you didn't know or realize the expectation or maybe it's beyond what you are even ABLE to do) -- wouldn't it hurt if that friend then got mad at you? If the friend stopped and looked at all the GOOD qualities that you are able to bring to the friendship then maybe she/he would be able to let go of what was expected and be at peace with what is.
>
> So, after 2.5 years of feeling like we were working on me not feeling bad about myself for having needs, I feel like my T finally said "yeah, you're needy". I know it's more complicated than that... but that's how it feels. And it feels ugly and horrible. And it creates a cycle... me feeling horrible and ugly and then needing my T. When, my immediate response is to try to turn it all off and try so very hard to not need her anymore.<<---flutterby--: Yep, that's just what I do too. cept I don't just "try"-- I do turn it all off and not need at all. I think it's insightful that you see this in yourself-- you just now got me to realize it in myself.
>> But now, I feel like I need her more than ever before... because I feel so awful about seeing myself as "needy".<<
---flutterby--: I'm certainly no expert, but it does sound like you do need her more now than ever. the confusion and negative thoughts can be quite overwhelming.
> I'd love any help/thoughts/reassurance you all have. I feel like my T and I have been working on reducing "self-hate" and this session just gave me a reason to pile it on...
>
> WIP---flutterby--: oh, i'm sorry. I hope you can get to a more comfortable place in your mind-- I've been told it does take work. *sigh*..... please hang in there-- I think you are learning and growing so much.
best to you,
flutterby
Posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 23:35:29
In reply to Re: feeling needy » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2009, at 8:26:35
Dinah,
Thanks so much for your response. I'm sure you're right. I do realize that the reason this was so hard for me is really about fear of abandonment and rejection from her. It isn't what she said, but all I heard is "you're too needy with me". That doesn't fit with other things she's said, but it does fit with all my fears and concerns. So I went there unconsciously. I'm in a better space now, but we have an appointment to talk tomorrow and it will be really nice to have her reassurance on that count.
I know I can't change others... I've been way better about changing my expectations. I just can't get past the fact that something's inherently wrong with me because of my needs... getting closer, but not past. Sigh...
> I think that what she was saying was about acceptance, not about judging you for your needs. And she was talking about your friends, not about your relationship with her.
>
> How much you need someone is how much you need someone; it just is and it's not really good or bad.
>
> Recognizing that there are times when those needs can be met and times when they won't be met is a separate matter. In therapy, your therapist has been clear on what needs she can meet. With your friends, it is something that depends on each individual relationship, each friend's boundaries and desire for closeness. It is only partially up to you, and the rest is totally beyond your power to change. Needing others more won't cause them to fill those needs. It hurts less to realistically test the boundaries, and to acknowledge the limits of each relationship. It's a matter of pragmatics.
>
> Therapy is not friendship. And those same boundaries that smart so much when we run into them protect us in other ways.
Posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 23:41:39
In reply to Re: feeling needy » workinprogress, posted by fleeting flutterby on October 20, 2009, at 11:35:29
Flutterby,Thanks for your note. And thank you for saying I'm "brave", my T has said that at times too. It's nice to hear it from someone else. I don't always think so, I think I just so want to connect, even when folks have pushed me away I haven't stopped trying. But the fear of that rejection is always there... and that's what this is about. So, I get that you're afraid. Though, outside of this moment (which I already feel better) I can say that connecting to her has really made my therapy, it's the reason I've grown as I have. So, if you can push past that fear, even a little, it's worth it.
Thanks for the perspective on looking at it from a friend's point of view, that's helpful, I'll try that next time.
And yep, I am learning and growing a lot. Unfortunately, it seems that the learning and growing that is the most significant is also the most painful. I've got an appointment to talk to her tomorrow. I think that will be helpful, to have some reassurance that she's still there for me.
Thanks for your support and encouragement!
> >
> > I've been in therapy 2.5 years and we've talked about this on and off. My T has said.. everyone has needs. She's generally convinced me that that doesn't make me bad or "needy". But, it seems, it keeps coming up. I've connected/attached to her and felt "needy". She has assured me that my reaching out to her and needing her is in fact a healthy way to heal.... And I believe that.... In fact, I finally got to the point where I believed that my coping mechanisms of emailing her and calling her (to leave a message- not for response, but just to know someone out there is tracking me) are ok. She even said recently she looks forward to my messages. So... I finally finally... after LOTs of pain, felt ok about my need for her.<<
>
> ---flutterby--: This sounds very nice. I think, (if you don't mind me saying so), that you are brave.... I can't/won't accept that I need anyone.... seems terrifying....
>
>
> >
> > My brother worked very hard while we were growing up to make sure I knew I was stupid so that he felt smart.<<
>
> ---flutterby--: Sounds just like several of my siblings. I'm sorry you experienced that too.
>
>
> > , my T pushed on the fact that I can only change my expectations. Maybe I expect more of my friends than I should? That I can change my expectations, but I can't change other people. .<<
>
> ---flutterby---: Yea, your T. is so right about not being able to change others, just ourselves(IMO). Maybe this thinking would help---- What if a friend expected you to react a certain way and you didn't (maybe you didn't know or realize the expectation or maybe it's beyond what you are even ABLE to do) -- wouldn't it hurt if that friend then got mad at you? If the friend stopped and looked at all the GOOD qualities that you are able to bring to the friendship then maybe she/he would be able to let go of what was expected and be at peace with what is.
>
>
> >
> > So, after 2.5 years of feeling like we were working on me not feeling bad about myself for having needs, I feel like my T finally said "yeah, you're needy". I know it's more complicated than that... but that's how it feels. And it feels ugly and horrible. And it creates a cycle... me feeling horrible and ugly and then needing my T. When, my immediate response is to try to turn it all off and try so very hard to not need her anymore.<<
>
> ---flutterby--: Yep, that's just what I do too. cept I don't just "try"-- I do turn it all off and not need at all. I think it's insightful that you see this in yourself-- you just now got me to realize it in myself.
>
> >> But now, I feel like I need her more than ever before... because I feel so awful about seeing myself as "needy".<<
>
> ---flutterby--: I'm certainly no expert, but it does sound like you do need her more now than ever. the confusion and negative thoughts can be quite overwhelming.
>
> > I'd love any help/thoughts/reassurance you all have. I feel like my T and I have been working on reducing "self-hate" and this session just gave me a reason to pile it on...
> >
> > WIP
>
> ---flutterby--: oh, i'm sorry. I hope you can get to a more comfortable place in your mind-- I've been told it does take work. *sigh*..... please hang in there-- I think you are learning and growing so much.
> best to you,
> flutterby
>
>
Posted by Tabitha on October 21, 2009, at 0:03:32
In reply to feeling needy, posted by workinprogress on October 20, 2009, at 1:16:45
Hi WIP, I do it a lot-- my T will say something and I'll be so sure I heard some negative message about me. Then I'll tell her what I heard and we'll look at it, and usually I realize she didn't say what I heard at all, and while simple verbal misunderstanding is always possible, I sometimes feel *so very certain* that she really meant what I heard no matter what she explains, that this certainty itself tells me it's my own projection acting. I'm hearing my inner critic's voice come out of her mouth. It's kind of fascinating to see, although embarrassing.
I'm sorry about this one for you, because it seems to be a particularly painful issue. You need, but you criticize yourself for needing, then the more you do that, the more needy you feel. Vicious cycle and inner battle ensues.
I do wish you well on your journey with this.
Posted by workinprogress on October 22, 2009, at 1:07:46
In reply to Re: feeling needy » workinprogress, posted by Tabitha on October 21, 2009, at 0:03:32
Hey all.. here's the update... or what I wrote in my journal after talking to t. It starts out bad, but it gets way better. It's not pretty, but honest. Tabitha, you're right, it is a really hard one for me...
It's really easy not to be afraid of flying when you don't care if you
crash or not. In fact, it seems an easy answer really- no guilt. I
wouldn't be hurting anyone, at least not nearly in the same way I
would if it wasn't an accident. I don't have the guts to do it anyway-
so it seems the plane crashing would make it easier. It'd be fitting
certainly, given the amount of time I've spent afraid of flying.
Fitting to crash the one time I've felt absolutely no fear b/c I don't
care if I die right now.I feel like dying. I feel like all this time I've been needy and too
much for t and she finally told me so. I know there's
perspective there- but that's where I'm stuck right now. When I talked
to t she didn't reassure me my needs were ok, or that reaching
out to her/needing her was ok. She said that since I've felt more
comfortable I may have pushed it too far. But I feel like (besides the
sick weekend) I've actually reached out less to her than before that
conversation. But- it doesn't really matter- b/c all I know is right
now I feel like I may not trust her anymore. And the thought of that
terrifies me. And I keep trying to figure out how not to have it be
so- what to tell myself so that I don't feel like this was all a lie.
That it was ok to need her and that I shouldn't/can't push her away.Rumble rumble bump- turbulence- I don't care. It doesn't scare me bc I
don't care.Ok- use your tools god damn it WIP!! So- what do I know about
t?1) she always empathizes and puts in perspective my experience,
doesn't blame me or see me as bad2) she has my best interests at heart
3) she said distinguishing bt wants and needs is part of growing up/
maturing- this is just about growth and I need to give myself a break4) it's not black and white/good or bad/ right or wrong- I have needs,
I'm learning about them
- managing expectations
- differentiating bt wants and needs
- figuring out how to meet my own needsI'm learning, it's ok not to have it all perfect.
5) I fear that t is angry at me/tired of me, but she's probably more
patient than thatT probably doesn't hate me, find me ugly or despicable, even if
I became "too much" for her. What's the worst? I learn about wants and
needs and grow- or suppose I'm not ready to learn and either t deals/I
settle back down or she says I can't email/call anymore. But she isn't
going to leave me I don't think. I worry she'll think less of me. She
says she doesn't, but now I don't know. Regardless, she won't make me
leave her, she won't abandon me.I feel better already. I managed to get myself out of black and white/
good and bad/ right and wrong and most importantly- truth and lie.
T's never lied to me. Her feelings may have changed around the
issue, but I don't believe she lied. I feel safe enough to feel
confident she wouldn't outright lie to me. I do know she protects me
sometimes, sometimes she shares less perspective than she shares
later. I think that's what's happened here. It may not even be that
her feelings have changed- but maybe that I've changed and now I'm
ready. She thinks I'm ready to add another layer.What's ok for some developmental stages later becomes not ok right? So
it's not that she switched things, but that I am I suppose, growing up
and it's time to grow out of that stage.Ok t.. I think I might get it. And I think with that understanding I
can still trust you. And I think I just proved I have a good chunk of
tools to take care of myself- by myself- at 35,000 feet- at my
disposal. I think I might care again if we crash. And I'm damn proud
of me for working through that.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on October 22, 2009, at 10:22:50
In reply to Re: feeling needy- update from call, posted by workinprogress on October 22, 2009, at 1:07:46
Oh your post is surely wonderful!
I see such bravery and drive to heal-- how awesome!Way to go WIP!! thank you for sharing. (I hope I can be as courageous as you someday-- ignoring these "voices" that, to my knowledge, have kept me safe-- is so so diffcult to do)
flutterby
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 22, 2009, at 12:52:37
In reply to Re: feeling needy- update from call » workinprogress, posted by fleeting flutterby on October 22, 2009, at 10:22:50
Oh, sweetie: We are ALL needy to one extent or another; there should be no shame attached to that. I too, have the abandonment thing going on. As the moderator of an abused survivors group, I tell the that.....when we were born, we were perfect; somewhere along the way (dysfuntional) people(s) told us lies about ourselves (you are messages). Those were and ARE lies.
Unfortuately, as children we believe those lies, because we believe adults know the truth. The truth is those adults dumped their ugly feelings and thoughts onto an innocent child.
Now "we" have to try to undo that damage.
Love, Sassy
P.S. I endured a childhood of abuse,, 31 years of abusive marriage, abuse from a church (www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com) and managed to pull myself up, join the army, win a scholarship (not academic, but I wrote about my life); go back to school at age 60, write my memoir, having my poetry published, etc., etc.......anyone can do it. We all need acceptance, love and a big need to be heard.
Posted by workinprogress on October 23, 2009, at 2:16:10
In reply to Re: feeling needy- update from call, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 22, 2009, at 12:52:37
Thanks for the words of encouragement and noticing me. I'm in the middle of a really long seminar the next few days, so don't have time to say much.
I'll come back and say more later, but I'm in a much better space overall. Getting back to feeling ok about needing her... still feeling confident in our relationship, so that's a good sign.
WIP
Posted by Dinah on October 23, 2009, at 16:30:12
In reply to Re: feeling needy- update from call- sassy/ff, posted by workinprogress on October 23, 2009, at 2:16:10
This is the end of the thread.
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