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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 12:37:49
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by twilight on October 9, 2009, at 12:30:54
It was a whole conversation, so not something that he phrased poorly.
I really do appreciate his honesty. It's the sort of thing people say behind other people's back, but rarely admit to their face.
He was just talking about my physical body. He says he does see that, but it's not all he sees. Which is good, because I don't think who I am inside is ugly.
He knows I have a major disconnect between what's inside and what's outside, and that I loathe what's outside.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 9, 2009, at 12:58:25
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » twilight, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 12:37:49
Oh, sweetie: i doubt you are ugly! What is it that you don't like, and is it something you can change?
I cannot imagine a therapist ever saying or even hinting at something like that.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 13:10:09
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 9, 2009, at 12:58:25
Well, I suppose one advantage of his admitting it is the tacit statement that being ugly isn't all that horrible a fate. Which I suppose it isn't.
I think I need to think about what it all means.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 13:11:00
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 13:10:09
To be clear, he didn't use the word himself. He acknowledged the truth of the words I used.
Posted by elizabeth31 on October 9, 2009, at 17:44:55
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 13:11:00
awww dinah i think you're beautiful! i hope you don't spend another minute telling yourself you're "ugly" again...sure, how we look on the outside is a part of who we are, but its meant to be an expression of you on the inside...i think you're overdue for some retail therapy and a pampering/spa appointment just for you....you'd be suprised how much different a new haircut/color/highlights might help give you a new look :) get your teeth whitened (either at the dentist or the crest white strips work great!) and get a fabulous new outfit you feel beautiful in and show up to your next therapy session all dolled up and looking fabulous....its not meant for your therapist of course, but its always nice to have someone notice and tell you nice things, so allow your therapist an opportunity to see the pretty gorgeous sexy side of you too-i'm sure its right there in the mirror! xoxo
Posted by obsidian on October 9, 2009, at 19:39:08
In reply to My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 11:57:42
that's hard to believe dear...
I think you can't be.
(((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 20:06:36
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by obsidian on October 9, 2009, at 19:39:08
Wellll....
Someone has to be, you know.
Why not me?
I don't think I'm ugly on the inside. That's the disconnect, you see. "This" (with a comprehensive wave of my hand to encompass face and body) is not who I am.
I imagine it's not who any homely person is.
You guys see the inner me. And I'm very glad about that. I wish I could walk around showing the inner me in real life too. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 20:16:29
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by elizabeth31 on October 9, 2009, at 17:44:55
I actually do spend money on my hair. It's baby fine and just lies there, but when it's a blonde approaching what I remember seeing in the mirror, I can focus on that part of me, and still feel like the person in the mirror isn't entirely alien.
Or not alien really. I'm the spitting image of my mother. I remember when people started saying that. I'd cry. I can't imagine how they thought that was an ok thing to say to anyone.
My family doesn't gain weight well. Platter faced we are. And my tendency to squint in light has left me with what looks like frown grooves in my forehead, so I don't even have a smiling homely face.
But...
I think, even though it hurt at first a bit, that this isn't a bad thing. My therapist cares a lot about me, loves me even. I need to put the physical in perspective. Homely people can be loved. Just not by strangers so much. Or casual acquaintances.
Posted by Deneb on October 9, 2009, at 20:26:55
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » elizabeth31, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 20:16:29
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))))
I don't think anyone in this world is ugly. There are just individual preferences. What is ugly to one person is beautiful to another person.
It is good that there are so many different types of people in this world because not everyone likes the same things.
I'm glad you see you are have a beautiful inside. :-)
I would rather have a friend who is beautiful inside over outside any day. :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 20:50:59
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » Dinah, posted by obsidian on October 9, 2009, at 19:39:08
>I think you can't be.
You are right, sid. I have actual proof. She is not ugly, not even close.
I can't imagine what your T. was "acknowledging" that you had said, but I have no doubt it was distorted. As you know, I am ever so well-acquainted with calling physical characteristics on myself "ugly' sometimes - too overweight, too out of shape, too many age spots popping out, this body part too big, this one too saggy, this one too bland, too small, too weird-looking, hair isn't right, clothes don't hang nicely, blah-de-blah-de-blah. So many of us do that. Some or all of those specifics may well be accurate - I would be the last person to deny that (the reality of which seems to make you, me, others - just like thousands of middle-aged women, BTW) but since when does that equate to ugly???
Ugly is an ugly word and I don't apply it to human beings, except to their bad bevaiior, which could be "ugly."
A couch, car or dress can be ugly, but certainly not a woman, and certainly NOT you, Dinah.
((Dinah))
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:05:24
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly » obsidian, posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 20:50:59
If it makes people so uncomfortable.
Is it really so awful to be unattractive? My therapist didn't seem to think so, really.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:27:39
In reply to Re: My therapist acknowledges that I am ugly, posted by Deneb on October 9, 2009, at 20:26:55
Thanks Deneb.
I really don't mind being me. I don't much identify with the external stuff.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 21:27:39
In reply to Homely then, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:05:24
I didn't say I was uncomfortable, did I? :-) I just plainly disagree and I probably have the most basis/evidence of anyone who has posted here so far, so there!
I just don't see the vast majority of people that way. Rarely anyway, unless they are disfigured or something, we as humans sorta can't help it, we aren't hard-wired to find distortions of features pleasing. I wish that weren't so, as our initial reactions probably really hurt those who have suffered genetic probelms, or had a surgery, accident, etc., but it is the way we are made, it seems. I'm not pretending we don't see some people as better looking (hard to say waht that is, exactly, or why as we are all so different, like Deneb mentioned) or more attractive than others, I suppose, but *ugly* is pretty extreme, IMO. Just as gorgeous is pretty extreme.
Homely? I dunno what it really means. A kinder ugly?? {shrug}
How come you wish to interpret it as awful, this unattractiveness which I cannot see? Isn't this kinda like everything else, where we can't see ourselves as others do, and we are harsh on ourselves? I mean, what if I told you I look an awful lot like the pic I have seen of you? If you and your T. have agreed that "that" look is ugly, homely and unattractive, then it would have to follow I am, too, right? If I look really, really similar to you?
You would not deem me any of those things, I'll bet. (If you would, well, that's okay, too) Why? Because I am not you. We only place the really harsh and most extreme descriptors on ourselves, as usual. Inner OR outer descriptions.
But, if you wish to be those words, of course it's not awful. It is just is what it is.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:33:13
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 21:27:39
Well....
You have a point there.
I'd likely be very uncomfortable referring to anyone but myself as ugly.
It was the first time that my therapist really came out and agreed with me though. I've felt it from him of course. And he's been silent sometimes. And sometimes he comes out with that reflexive denial.
And...
You know how I find those things oddly comforting. Yes, it hurt. And yes tears came to my eyes, and he saw them. But overall I think it was a good thing not a bad thing. I know I'm weird that way. Happy that my therapist said he was bored sometimes and agreed that I'm ugly. Things most people wouldn't particularly care for from their therapists.
I suppose I wouldn't have much cared for it before I felt this secure. Although I think I partially feel this secure because he says things like that.
Maybe I'm just an *odd* ugly duckling. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:36:43
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 21:27:39
But...
Isn't it nice to be able to talk about what really is the hardest thing in the world to talk about, without feeling like I'm fishing for compliments? To have my therapist acknowledge the reality of what I'm discussing, instead of trying to paper it over with positive affirmations, lets us really discuss it. And it really is something to discuss.
If he denied that it was true, conversation kind of ends there. Or gets diverted into an argument of the relative truth.
How is it possible to truly discuss this, without being honest. It's hard enough as it is.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 9, 2009, at 21:54:29
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:36:43
Yes, I can see how that would be nice. Safe, too. A testament to your relationship, for sure.
I do understand what you are saying.
Posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:36:43
I read your post earlier and then got distracted and browsed around some other sites, but I just read an op-ed piece at the Times titled "The Eye of the Beholder" and had to come back.
It's been a long week and I'm really tired but I think what I want to say is each of us has something about ourselves we feel insecure about. We are scrutinized and judged by everyone around us, constantly, but we have to hold in mind there is no fixed measure, nothing we can point to as a standard, a definitive. What is important to one person is not to the next, what is beautiful to one person is not to the next, what is homely to one person is not to the next. Some people think Barbie is grotesque!
I've never seen you, I have no idea where you would fall on my personal spectrum of attractiveness, how I would judge you based on that alone. Would I find you homely? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
I think not, if for no other reason than I have read your words and peered into your heart and your mind for three or four years now, and I agree with what Pegasus said in a few posts above: Believe in your own experience first. I don't know if you have limp hair or a platter face, I'm not even sure if that, by definition, means you are homely. Maybe to some, maybe not to others. But I do know you can believe in yourself when you say "My beauty lies within." You are correct, it does, irrespective of whether or not it also lies without.
But what really prompted me to post is how envious I am that your relationship with your T reaches far enough and deep enough to be truthful, even in the face of discomfort to each of you. That, to me, is an expression of love. He is giving you implicit AND explicit invitation to trust him, to believe in him, and your relationship.
You are beautiful Dinah, inside outside and everything in between, no matter what the mirror says. And you are loved, and cared for, by so many. Each of whom, all of whom!, know you for who you are.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 10, 2009, at 4:06:49
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
What a beautiful, eloquent post.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by toetapper on October 10, 2009, at 1:23:48
It was a beautiful post. And it embodies many of the ideas I am trying to address in therapy.
This in particular struck me.
"But what really prompted me to post is how envious I am that your relationship with your T reaches far enough and deep enough to be truthful, even in the face of discomfort to each of you. That, to me, is an expression of love. He is giving you implicit AND explicit invitation to trust him, to believe in him, and your relationship."
It's the thing I remember most about yesterday's session. I know that it was really hard for him not to mutter a reflexive denial. He trusted in our relationship enough to do something that was hard for him, and I trusted it enough to take in something that hurt, even if I at the very same time welcomed it. He made himself vulnerable to me, and that was such a loving thing to do. It might come easy enough to some therapists, but he is not one of those therapists.
Thank you for really understanding that.
Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 12:54:29
In reply to Re: Homely then » toetapper, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
Wow I just this thread. I'm amazed. As was said beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Dinah does your husband and Son see you as unattractive? Avoid you? Not want to be seen in public with you? Do people avoid you in the outside world? Do they avert their eyes when the see you? I doubt it but of course only hear your words here where they are eleoquently put. I hate the lines, wrinkles fact that I'd give anything to be middle aged again. In all seriousness those were definitely the very bestest years of my life. Enjoy them and enjoy life while you can. I think my rant is kind of based on a conversation I had with a woman yesterday who lost her 14 year old Daughter to a bout of Cancer. I was totally in awe of her strength which she saw as weakness that she cries? Made me feel so selfish. I think a lot of us all need to live in the present I always think into the future. But I find it hard to believe that a therapist would even agree. I hope I was civil it just stuck a personal nerve as well. Dinah you are a wonderful person. Rejoice in who you are you have a family that truly loves you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 14:59:48
In reply to Re: Homely then, posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 12:54:29
Well... I think my husband and son are embarrassed to be seen with me sometimes. Not simply because of my looks of course. And my son would never ever ever dream of admitting it. My husband refers to it on occasion.
I *know* it's not important. Or at least that it shouldn't be. But study after study after study show it is.
But never mind. I know it's a difficult topic, and I don't wish to make anyone uncomfortable.
It was just such a new thing in therapy for me.
Posted by seldomseen on October 10, 2009, at 18:33:11
In reply to Re: Homely then » toetapper, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2009, at 9:20:30
Having read this whole thread, I see the value in your interaction with your therapist. Sometimes I think reflexive denials are so transparent that we end up seeing right through them and resenting the person.
Sometimes it's enough to make a person want to just yell "enough already" let's talk about the real issue here. "this is what *I* think and I want to talk about it with you". I think to constantly hear "you're beautiful" or something along those lines, when one truly does not believe it could be very tiring, if not negating of one's feelings.
I don't know what you look like on the outside, and frankly I don't really care. You've shown me tremendous beauty, fragility, wisdom and the complexity of Dinah here on babble.
That trumps long legs, big hair and symmetrical features any day in my book
I look forward to, and hope you decide to share this latest phase of your therapy with us here on babble. I think it will lead you to a lot of peace and bridge the divide that you feel. I think you will get a lot of comfort from this line of inquiry.
Peace to you.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2009, at 9:00:08
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on October 10, 2009, at 18:33:11
Thank you, Seldom. :)
My feelings are so conflicting on the topic. On the one hand, I really do think my mother is ugly, so when I see her face in my mirror, I see ugly. But my grandma was beautiful, and she looked more or less the same.
And the most romantic thing I've ever seen on screen was when coach's daughter (played by Allyce Beasley) was trying to point out that she deserved nothing better than her lout of a fiance. She begs him to look at her. He stares and says that he hadn't realized how much she looks like her mother. She starts to point out that that was the problem, when she sees her father's look of blank incomprehension and amends it to "Mom was not... comfortable with her beauty." His reply that that made her even more beautiful and that she grew more beautiful every day of her life was pure romance of the real variety. Forget Rhett sweeping Scarlett upstairs. It reminded me of how Grandpa looked at Grandma.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ6rwZg-J9w
(about 2:40 in)
Yet my other feelings are very real either. I never think of myself as pretty, I wasn't even a pretty child. But I was comfortable with being a ridiculously skinny kid, always tan, with thin blonde hair that was always falling out of its ponytails, shirttail askew, and socks that slid down into my shoes. What I see now just isn't me.
Then of course there are the practical issues that I really ought to lose fifty pounds or so.
It's complicated, and I'm glad that I'll be able to really discuss it with him.
Posted by antigua3 on October 11, 2009, at 11:09:45
In reply to Re: Homely then » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2009, at 21:33:13
I'd like to hear "reflexive denial" every once in a while...
Haven't you mentioned before that "attractiveness" is important to your T?
I don't see you as unattractive or homely, and I just wonder if he's projecting here...
just an off the wall thought,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2009, at 14:11:05
In reply to Re: Homely then » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on October 11, 2009, at 11:09:45
The oddest things bring me comfort. :)
Though they all seem to have his being authentic at the core of them. And this from me! I've always been so adamant about preferring my truth beveled and polished. I must really really trust how much he cares for me. I must really feel loved and secure when I'm with him. I don't think I'd like just anyone agreeing that I'm ugly.
No doubt his ideas about attractiveness do pay a role, and I'm positive he'd like me to dress better and wear makeup. But strangely enough, I don't know that he sees me as being as unattractive as he used to see me, even though my looks have gotten worse, not better, with age. But he cares for me now, and sees the inner me as well as the outer me. I used to show him a picture at the beginning of each session of me as a child so that he'd have in mind what I *really* looked like.
I think I see a common theme in my writing. I think perhaps it's not being unattractive that really bothers me, so much as it is being unattractive in the same way as my mother. When I was growing up, everyone said I looked like Daddy. Same dark circles under the eyes, and big ears, and skinny skinny frame. I don't think I'll ever be reconciled to looking in the mirror and seeing my mother looking back. My feelings about her are so mixed and overlaid with things that...
Well, to look like my mother is the worst thing possible to me.
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