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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
Scott brought up an interesting discussion about the differences between males and females above.
Do male and female Ts treat us differently? Based on our own gender as well as theirs?
I have both a male and female T, and I do see differences, but I think that's because I need different things from them. My female T is my good mother, but despite that she treats me (in a therapuetic sense) more gently. She never pushes, but let's us work to a mutually satisfactory conclusion or insight. I know she loves me, but it's more than needing a loving mother figure. It's the way she goes about things.
My pdoc is all male (sorry), but that may be just the person/pdoc he is, and his treatment (harsher, really) is very different from my female T. But I thought that's what I needed--a male authority figure so I could work through specific issues over my father. But he's not all that way--his female side shows too, in concern mostly, but he's more likely to direct how I "should" think and to "do" something about how I feel rather than feel.
For me, it could be the differences in their orientation, and not just a male/female thing. Because I know there are plenty of male Ts out there who aren't as harsh. We've seen many examples of them on babble.
Do they treat me differently because I'm female? Sometimes, I think my pdoc does, that he is fighting against some female stereotype that isn't me. If anything, I fall more on the "male" side of being a woman, much as was described in the earlier thread. But yes, I do think he sees me as more emotional, for one, and is always wanting to work things through in a more logical, less emotional manner.
Anyone else?
antigua
Posted by Garnet71 on March 8, 2009, at 14:12:33
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
My male T was just as sensitive as my female Ts..except one of my female Ts was about 'doing' similar to what you said. She was harsh about some things, but a cognitive based therapist. My PDoc made me go see her as opposed to the gentler T I saw a few times because he said I was "too strong" (whatever that meant), and I needed the new one to "kick me in the *ss". No joke. But I sensed she was judging me sometimes, so I wouldn't go back to her.
I think the differences may be attributed to cognitive-based therapy vs. psychotherapy. I never did like cognitive based therapy; the solutions all seem to be common sense. If I had the motivation or discipline to change certain aspects directed by CBT, I wouldn't need therapy in the first place. I guess it works for many, but don't know why it doesn't work for me--except that I have to *know* all the whys, which are answered by psychotherapy. I have to have a deep understanding of my individual motivations. I personaly think the steps of first acknowledging, then knowing, followed by understanding (then practice) are the precursors to change and healing...and that denial is the ultimate self defeator. CBT diverts--but does it heal the inner conflict?
I would guess their background or upbringing does affect they dynamics of therapy. I mean, if someone is sexist, though seemingly hidden, how could that aspect not effect the therapy dynamics?
Posted by posterchild on March 8, 2009, at 17:07:01
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
I am a female, and will never see a female T. I have in the past, but I never feel comfortable with them. I much prefer male Ts, I don't know why though. I feel judged when I work with women and feel that I don't have much in common with them.
Posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 19:26:06
In reply to Re: Differences between male and female Ts » antigua3, posted by Garnet71 on March 8, 2009, at 14:12:33
You've described my contrasting therapies perfectly. My CBT pdoc doesn't really understand that process of I need to know the "whys" before I can make what seem to him to be common sense changes. But, he has come around a lot to my needing to know and uses pyschodynamic as well. When it works for him, though, and not enough, but that's not why I went to see him in the first place. I needed the kick in the pants according to him, after having my T for so many years, and he was right.
That said, I've found some of the CBT techniques to be useful for my everyday life so in that sense we are a good match.
So, I do think the orientation is probably the biggest difference, but there is still the lingering perception by me that he treats me differently because I am a woman. But that could be his own bias, and when he does treat me like a "woman," with all the stereotypes associated with it, I try to call him on it. But it's hard to know where the fine line between orientation and gender is drawn.
Thanks for your comments,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 19:28:49
In reply to Re: Differences between male and female Ts, posted by posterchild on March 8, 2009, at 17:07:01
I never wanted to see a male, and in the past I could never open up to them as I can w/my female T. But I decided to try with a male, to see if there was a difference, and I bring so many biases to my therapy w/my male pdoc that it has been good for me to see what misperceptions I had. But, then again, I have huge issues with male authority figures.
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on March 8, 2009, at 19:40:01
In reply to Re: Differences between male and female Ts, posted by posterchild on March 8, 2009, at 17:07:01
Well, I think it varies.
For the record, I do believe there are biological differences between genders that affect thoughts, emotions and behavior. There are also differences based on social factors. So its nature plus nurture IMO.
I agree with garnet that training and orientation can make a difference too. Although it can be argued that people probably select disciplines that are compatible with their personalities, so we're back to that.
A few observations based on Babble T's... (1) All the seriously transgressing Ts are male. (2) The Ts who tell their clients outright that they love them all seem to be female (except maybe Daisy's T?). (3) There seem to be as many warm, nurturing males as female Ts. Some of the male Ts elicit maternal transferences (e.g. Dinah's T), and others, paternal.
Therapy seems to be shifting from mostly male practitioners to mostly female. There's an expectation that this gender shift will also change the way psychotherapy is done. Maybe more empathy, fewer transgressions? Time will tell.
Posted by Dinah on March 8, 2009, at 22:20:41
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
It could just be my transference at work. But I see my therapist as having many excellent qualities that are associated with "feminine". Don't tell him that though. He's upset enough when I refer to his milky breasts although he seems comfortable enough with therapist/mommy. He can be very warm and nurturing. T3 was female and she was waaay less warm and nurturing, IMO.
Still, there's only so much warm and nurturing I can take. So my perception is probably that he's warmer and more nurturing than others may see him.
I always joke that I prefer women doctors and male therapists, because I prefer somewhere mid-spectrum. Some women therapist seem a bit sweet and squishy for my tastes. But others definitely are not. I don't think of myself as particularly feminine. But my therapist thinks one reason I might not get along well with female therapists long term, is that they may be more impatient with my childlike qualities. Which may be true, based on my experience.
But in the end it comes down to individual fit. Of the all the therapists I've been associated with in one way or another, I've liked exactly two. My therapist is male, the other one was female. Some are too hard, some are too soft, and very very few are just right.
Posted by DAisym on March 8, 2009, at 23:43:27
In reply to Re: Differences between male and female Ts » posterchild, posted by lucie lu on March 8, 2009, at 19:40:01
Small correction - My therapist never says he loves me. He "cares" - and he really does. He'll talk about my loving feelings for him - but never uses that to describe his feelings for me.
I'm betting that males have to be very, very careful about that, given all the legal stuff in this day and age.
My therapist does not touch either. Which given his overall approach is somewhat of a surprise.
Posted by DAisym on March 9, 2009, at 0:14:37
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
I wonder if who we are, how we present ourselves, how we dress, etc. influence how our therapists treat us, more than female vs. male.
I find that most of the places I go, I'm treated very much as the person in charge, even when I'm not, because I wear heels and a suit. So can this happen in therapy too? At least at the beginning, do we look more or less fragile so we get pushed more or less during sessions?
This thread makes me want to see my file and read my therapist's notes from the beginning of treatment. I'm guessing it says something like, "competent, intellectualizes instead of allowing emotional responses, wound tighter than a top." A few weeks ago he said something like, "this is so much better than when we started - it took years to make any connection to you at all." Ouch.
The female therapist I had for group was very soft spoken but she would push for a response much more than my individual therapist would. But she very much was responsible to the group, not just us as individuals.
Interesting to think about.
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 9, 2009, at 9:31:54
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
I haven't had therapy with a female T so it would be hard to compare, but I have had this discussion with my male T. My priority was to see a male because I have greater trust issues with women, so on a personal level I would probably have experienced more negative-transference toward a female therapist, at least in the outset - as it was I felt considerable distrust to my current therapist so it could be have been unworkable with a female T. It was his opinion that in reality there isn't a great deal of difference between male and female analysts. In theory any kinds of transference can occur between male-male, male-female combinations regardless of the sexual orientation of the client. A heterosexual female client might experience erotic transference toward her female T just as she might toward a male T. Likewise, a male T can be the focus of a mother-transference. I think each client brings their own expectations to the therapy and some of those rest on the gender of the therapist. This will affect how we perceive the therapist but might also have an effect on how the therapist responds to us and in turn how they come across.
So it seems there are many factors at play: type of therapy, preconceptions of the client and of the therapist, projections of the client onto their therapist based on gender, manner in which the therapist reacts... and then the gender difference itself.
With this in mind, plus the fact that each therapist is different, I think it would be very difficult pinning down what exactly the gender of the therapist brings to the therapy.
Witti
Posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 12:15:40
In reply to Differences between male and female Ts, posted by antigua3 on March 8, 2009, at 10:53:32
Hey Antigua --
I am a woman. I used to have a female T. She had a very empathic approach, a wonderful "good mother" style. Even so, I was afraid of her. I had a hard time trusting her niceness. Partly I have trouble trusting in general. Partly, I fear angry women more than angry men. This is a very shameful disclosure for me; I am aware of the sexism in it. Working on it.
Right now have a male T. When I am more enlightened I will switch to a woman. For now, I just can't get comfortable.
BSD
Posted by lucie lu on March 9, 2009, at 12:38:00
In reply to Re: Differences between male and female Ts, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 12:15:40
> Hey Antigua --
>
> I am a woman. I used to have a female T. She had a very empathic approach, a wonderful "good mother" style. Even so, I was afraid of her. I had a hard time trusting her niceness. Partly I have trouble trusting in general. Partly, I fear angry women more than angry men. This is a very shameful disclosure for me; I am aware of the sexism in it. Working on it.
>
> Right now have a male T. When I am more enlightened I will switch to a woman. For now, I just can't get comfortable.BSD, if you switch female T to male T, then you've just described me. I have developed a good amount of trust in my T but it remains a work in progress. What I trust is that he doesn't *want* to hurt me. What I don't trust is whether he *will* end up hurting me despite his wish not to.
My issues are far more with men than women. I don't consider this sexism nor should it be shameful. These generalized responses stem from very specific interactions with very specific people from the past. I'm not sure I would describe such a gender-specific response as a value judgment, they way I would sexism. Just my 2 cents.
Lucie
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