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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 0:00:54
I had spoken in a thread bout Dissociative disorders, and I proly just should have started a new thread. Sorry bout that.
I do not in ANY way mean to put anyone down or anything.
I just feel so strongly about this topic that is SO misunderstood.
I'll proly get stuff wrong, but I'll do my best.
Just for interests sake, I am not DID, but a lower place on the continuum known as DDNOS.
I have learned so much about DD's in the last few years. And I have learned many things, good and bad.
One thing, is that each dissociative will have their own experience of it, depending on many factors.
Also however, there are often many similarities.
Sadly, it is often much misunderstood by many, INCLUDING myself! It is a crazymaking confusing thing.
There are so many theories out there about it.
So many who blatantly do not beleive :-(
So many, who are open minded, but don't truly understand.
I think it takes a certain something to be a T and work with dissociative people, cuz each client is going to be different. And within those differences, are MORE differences! I think DD T's got to be very cerebral!
For me, one of the hallmarks of DD is the confusion, and the internal fighting. Not just me dissing myself, but me answering back! Or worse someone else answering and I am just listening to it all. Gaaacckkk! Lock me up I say!!!(kidding ;-} )
The constant dichotomy, the emotions utterly out of the blue. The sudden realization that people are looking at me funny, and realizing I have been acting a tad....strange. Even for me.
Then there's the screaming inside.
Or the times where belatedly I realize my behaviour was really off, and I just have to hope noone I know seen me :-(
There is a parent at our school who is an undercover cop in my city, and he been looking at me funny :-(...I fear he's seen me :-( :-( :-(
Or doing things I KNOW are stupid, but I do them anyways, and then wonder what happened.
And then I do it again....:-(
This could be true of ANYONE.
But oddly, I still have these....Others....
And they are SO friggin REAL. It is bizzarre. So I can understand how it is misunderstood.
I mostly never have amnesias. Some part of me always knows wassup in some fashion. So I am fortunate.
As far as my T goes, she doesn't talk to any part of me any differently in 'tone' as far as I know. Nor does she ever touch me or move near to me.
But what she will change I think, is the 'type' of question, or how she 'phrases' it. She also takes into account who she might be dealing with when there is an answer. Depending on who she is dealing with, the answer/comment can be taken in very different ways.
Also depending on who she dealing with, they may not be able to even really understand what she says. A good clue for her is when I look perplexed and say 'what do you mean?'or 'what????'....repeatedly. Sometimes I just seem to be unable to understand something, and its sort of awful, because I kinda know I SHOULD know, and T is looking at me expectantly, and she will rephrase, but its that I don't get even the 'concept' of the question, because I am in a state that has no knowledge of it. In a different state, I would have no problem answering the same question.
Kids know alot for sure, and I didn't talk to my IRL kids like they was kids. I kinda wished I could have :-( But I didn't know how. I knew nothing about kids :-( So I mostly said nothing at all :-( Literally.
I know as a parent I was perpetually astonished by the most basic concepts that kids do NOT know. I just would kinda think to myself, EVERYBODY knows this....then I'd think more, and realize to myself, HOW would my kids know this? I need to explain, thats what a Mom does. I still struggle with that. I wish I could start all over and be a parent again with what I know now. Mebbe I still wouldn't be great, but I would do better. I would talk more. I would explain more.
So when my T is dealing with a younger age state, it is not the same as dealing with an adult. Children are not little adults. Their minds work <quite> differently indeed at different developmental stages.
Kids have basic needs, so do adults. But kids needs and understanding of whats right and wrong can be very different. I think thats how many kids get hurt, they don't realize that what is happening is wrong. They don't have the power to stop it. They are not adults. They 'think' they are getting needs met(not consciously, but unconsciously) and go along with it. They just don't know. And why doesn't a kid 'tell'??? or remove themsdelves from danger? as an adult, I know it is OK to tell, I am able to escape a situation, but a child often cannot. They get told lies, and they beleive them, cuz they kids, they dunno any better, they are not adults.
Sometimes these kids get locked inside as the body grows older, but they do not grow older, they stay the same. They think the same. They are kids in all ways except the physical body. A very very tough concept to grasp, for me too.
My T is big into brain stuff, she has said as how information is stored differently in the diff lobes of the brain etc etc. I won't get into that now, but that ties into how people get split too.
I have no idea why I am the way I am, just that this is my reality (most of the time).
It is real to me.(sometimes)
And FWIW, I usu do not consciously try and 'switch' in T.
I try NOT to. I HATE it when she points it out, and now am doing MUCH better at not switching, or hiding it if I do. HA! (which mebbe is not the best thing.....)
I have told T that she is NOT to try and engage other parts, that I will do the speaking.
T keeps telling me I am NOT crazy, she tells me it is a coping mechanism.
But sometimes I feel so damn crazy :-(
I have but one body, one brain.
One me.
But I don't.
And I can't stop hurting this body, it just keeps happening.
And I am doing MUCH better with my kids, but I wanto do better, so much better. I don't want to be a 'good enuf' mom.
I want my kids to know they are loved and safe and Mom gonna be around, and ya, lifes NOT fair, but we got each other. I think I do that.
I want them to know how to be happy, and to care for others.
But they not in many activities, I still not good at talking to them. I still go 'out' and be an idiot. I not good at helping them w/schoolwork. My house is a crazy mess. We don't eat meals at the table. I swear too much. I not cuddly w/their Dad.
I a terrible ma, but I don't hurt my kids on purpose, I keep them safe as a Ma can, maybe too safe.
I send huge blessings out to all who struggle, in whatever way they struggle.
I have no excuses for my struggles.
I am an *ss for no reason.(the the adult form of being a rebel w/o a cause!!LOL!)
So I will not be the first to cast a stone.(as in 'let he who is w/o sin cast the first stone')
Rather, stone me first, cuz I got no reason.
Just I wanna stick around for my sweet babies.
Sorry, this is a ramble.
Its just so hard sometimes being dissociative, DID must be so much harder yet.
I just wish I could find the words so others can understand. Yet its not understandable......
Its CRAZY.
Sigh...
Sorry.
I go now
Posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 0:32:17
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 0:00:54
Muffled,
It is well past 1 am here and I am just about to go to bed, but I just read your post and, like Witti's, was moved by all the things that you said. I want to reply to you more deeply tomorrow, but just wanted to let you know that I read your post and it provoked thought as well as an emotional response in me, and also gives me better insight into who you are too. Thanks for that. I hope you have a good night, muffled.
I care about you.Lucie
Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 13:19:14
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 0:00:54
Muffled that was a great explaination. Would it be okay If I ask some others as even though did at one time work in psych this has never been clear to me. Is DID like sybil with multiple personalities and DD just kind of when you zone out and forget? Wierd cause I tend to change subjects mid discussion when my mine not aware of doesn't want to go there. Is that DD? I really am not sure. I admit I did you you had DID if my understanding of it is right if not you wrote so much above could you explain a bit more? I hate to ask. Love Phillipa ps you must be a wonderful understanding Mom.
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 15:01:07
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy » muffled, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 13:19:14
Hey lucie lu, you reply or not, s'ok, I just try and share so if there anybody else that relate, then they feel less alone is all.
I sure like how you write.
Hope you doing OK, sounds like you had rough time lately.
Take care,
M
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 15:19:36
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy » muffled, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 13:19:14
> Muffled that was a great explaination. Would it be okay If I ask some others as even though did at one time work in psych this has never been clear to me. Is DID like sybil with multiple personalities and DD just kind of when you zone out and forget? Wierd cause I tend to change subjects mid discussion when my mine not aware of doesn't want to go there. Is that DD? I really am not sure. I admit I did you you had DID if my understanding of it is right if not you wrote so much above could you explain a bit more? I hate to ask. Love Phillipa ps you must be a wonderful understanding Mom.
*Its on a continuum, like a scale. You can be anywhere on that continuum. It varies, the actual DX, cuz its not clear. They keep discussing how to revise the DSM over it.
The scale goes from plain old daydreaming to DID. Its not always necessarily pathological. Just if it is interefering in your life.
MY opinion of DID dx, tends to be, I think of it as, well, I guess I would not say its DID unless there were signifgant amnesias.
For example, I sometimes come across stuff I have bought, and for the life of me I cannot understand WHY I bought it, BUT I rmemeber buying it. A person w/DID can find something they have presumably purchased, but they have amnesia, they do not remember making the purchase at all.
In DID the 'ego states/personalities/alters/others' etc.... whatever you want to call them... are much more defined, and can completely take over functioning of the body (hence the amnesias).
And, it can be anything in btwn, etc etc.
This is a grossly general description of 'some' differences IMHO.
Its a HUGE topic that I cannot all cover here.
I am still in the process of learning.
So 'dissociating' in is broadest description is something we all do, not all dissociating is bad.
I can't tell you Phillipa if what you do is a pathological thing, or what it is due to.
I surely wish you could find a T that might be able to be a support for you.
Thanks,
M
Posted by SlugSlimersSoSlided on December 7, 2008, at 16:19:05
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 0:00:54
DID disorders are not easy, but also not easy to hear someone who thinks a poster is DID and they are not. It shouldn't be assumed someone has DID because they suffered horrible child abuse, most do not become DID, in fact true DID is rare.
Posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 16:23:14
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 15:01:07
> Hey lucie lu, you reply or not, s'ok, I just try and share so if there anybody else that relate, then they feel less alone is all.
> I sure like how you write.
> Hope you doing OK, sounds like you had rough time lately.
> Take care,
> MMuffled, I started tearing up when you said that about me having a rough time recently, so I guess I have been. Thank you, I really needed that.
Actually, and this is to Phillipa too, I agree that DDs are on a continuum. I think most psych disorders are, and you can move along them. There is a continuum between normal and psychotic, based on how well we "perceive reality." We are all psychotic sometimes, just hopefully it's transient and situational. There's the mood continuum that leads up to full-blown bipolar I. In between is a range of affective states and disorders, cyclothymia, MDD, BPII and other mixed affective states etc. I think of the DD continuum as having to do with identity and continuity of experience. At one extreme is DID, where the different pieces of personality and reality are all split off and independent. But elsewhere along that continuum are other states where identity, time, space, events are still not all that continuous. As I have written in posts before, for most of my life I have felt like Raggedy Ann - a patchwork doll with roughly stitched together pieces. Very fragmented identity. Fair amount of childhood amnesia, memory problems in general. So like muffled, I am somewhere on the continuum short of DID but definitely it is all very confusing. One of the goals of my therapy is to integrate the major pieces. I think muffled describes the confusion of DDs very well.
Posted by rskontos on December 7, 2008, at 20:11:56
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 16:23:14
Muffled you know what and who I am. I often rail at my t about my dx. But I do have huge stretches of lost time. I have lost days, weeks. I have awaken from a fugue stretch, amnesia if you will, and not remember people, or being in a room with people I did not remember ever coming into contact with. It is so upsetting to say the least. And why I never sought help, or wondered why this happened still baffles me. I just I just, tried to forget it happening. I have bought things and not remember buying them.
Sometimes it is simple things. Like we get Netflix. We get movies in the mail, that no one in the house ordered. I did not remember ordering them.
I don't want to say more because, I am feeling a little uneasy with this.
I will say that my p-doc did give me a DID dx. I don't like it. Sometimes I feel that there is a stigma attached to this dx. Probably it is my stigma I am attaching. I do run across posts that make me think that, so I don't post. But then again, I am sometimes very, I don't the word, easily triggered. So again I just try to lurk.
I just wanted to post to say I understand. All too well.
But I think your t is good with yours. lately I question mine. So tomorrow I am going to tell him how i feel.
He sometimes treats it ok so you dissociate, it is just a way of coping. Now lets move on. Maybe that is better.
I don't know.
I am sorry so you feel so bad. I often worry I am a bad mom too.
I often feel so disconnected.
But mine are 20, she is ok doing well, the other is 16, he is doing well. So maybe I am doing ok afterall.
again so sorry you feel bad.
And I am sorry if I made anyone else feel bad.
I don't mean to ever be uncivil or put anyone down.
rsk
Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 20:21:56
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 16:23:14
Thank-you both so much I do believe I understand now and yes muffled I'd love a good t also will look again after holidays. Your guys are great!!!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 21:38:58
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 16:23:14
> Muffled, I started tearing up when you said that about me having a rough time recently, so I guess I have been. Thank you, I really needed that.
* I can never figger if I am having a rough time either. So I assume I am not. LOL, easier that way! But seriously, I really am sorry bout your 'stuff' :-(
> Actually, and this is to Phillipa too, I agree that DDs are on a continuum. I think most psych disorders are, and you can move along them.*I liked that whole description, I really liked the other disorder examples too, they really brought it into focus how the continuum is.
>As I have written in posts before, for most of my life I have felt like Raggedy Ann - a patchwork doll with roughly stitched together pieces. Very fragmented identity. Fair amount of childhood amnesia, memory problems in general. So like muffled, I am somewhere on the continuum short of DID but definitely it is all very confusing. One of the goals of my therapy is to integrate the major pieces. I think muffled describes the confusion of DDs very well.
*:-( Patchwork, puzzle pieces, fragments. Rather descriptive words.
What does 'integration' mean to you?
I have an ikid which is pretty much a part of me now. I guess thats what integration is? I used to hear her so clearly, now I don't.
DD's are SO confusing.
Thanks for posting.
M
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 21:53:52
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by rskontos on December 7, 2008, at 20:11:56
> Muffled you know what and who I am. I often rail at my t about my dx. But I do have huge stretches of lost time. I have lost days, weeks. I have awaken from a fugue stretch, amnesia if you will, and not remember people, or being in a room with people I did not remember ever coming into contact with. It is so upsetting to say the least. And why I never sought help, or wondered why this happened still baffles me. I just I just, tried to forget it happening. I have bought things and not remember buying them.
*:-( ((((RSK))), yes to me that is more DID, I suppose you could say 'true' DID or something like that.
Its the constant changing and confusion that makes it hard to get help. The inconsistancy, the noise. :-(> Sometimes it is simple things. Like we get Netflix. We get movies in the mail, that no one in the house ordered. I did not remember ordering them.
* :-( Thats goto be hard. Sometimes I have doubts, but not 'in my face' stuff like this. Kinda hard to deny when stuff like that happens :-(
> I don't want to say more because, I am feeling a little uneasy with this.*sigh, another thing. Random emotions. No knowing why we feel what we do. Not having a CLUE.
> I will say that my p-doc did give me a DID dx. I don't like it. Sometimes I feel that there is a stigma attached to this dx. Probably it is my stigma I am attaching. I do run across posts that make me think that, so I don't post. But then again, I am sometimes very, I don't the word, easily triggered. So again I just try to lurk.*It is not just you RSK. There is great misunderstandings bout DD's, that why I wanted to post about it here. Its not like you can tell people, I have a DD cuz ya, they think DID, and that you are going to be all weird or something.
Which, in my experience is not the case, moost dissociatives try and hide it. Their partners do not even know.
> I just wanted to post to say I understand. All too well.*awwww thanks (((Rsk))) I somewhat understand DID, but not fully, just I know if I find my DD confusing, well, its goto be alot harder for others who are further on this continuum.
> But I think your t is good with yours. lately I question mine. So tomorrow I am going to tell him how i feel.*maybe you could post some? My T is ok I guess.
> He sometimes treats it ok so you dissociate, it is just a way of coping. Now lets move on. Maybe that is better.*???My T is matter of fact about it, which was shocking initially, but I used to her now.
> I don't know.
>
> I am sorry so you feel so bad. I often worry I am a bad mom too.*Ya, reckon I've sweated alot bout bad Mom stuff, but I DO know I am doing much better than I was...
> I often feel so disconnected.*Thats one of my probs, I am not 'there' alot of times....
I used to go hours w/o talking to my kids when they were small. I'd allasudden realize it. I used to take them to my friends house (she LOVES to talk!) so they could have someone chatter to them.
> But mine are 20, she is ok doing well, the other is 16, he is doing well. So maybe I am doing ok afterall.*:-) I am HAPPY to hear your kids are OK :-)
> again so sorry you feel bad.*I don't feel as bad as I once did, so no worries.
> And I am sorry if I made anyone else feel bad.
>
> I don't mean to ever be uncivil or put anyone down.*I don't think you ever do Rsk. Your always kind so fars I can remember.
You take good care,
thanks,
Muffled
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 21:54:32
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy to muffled and Luci, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 20:21:56
Posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 10:34:50
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy to muffled and Luci, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2008, at 20:21:56
Hi Phillipa,
Just wanted to add one thing to clarify something that can be confusing. By itself, dissociation is not a disorder, nor necessarily pathological. Dissociation is just a state in which we are temporarily disconnected from our immediate experience. In "normal life," this could include daydreaming, mind wandering, or highway reverie. And you can really space out, too. For example, once I was daydreaming, in there really deep, while I was driving. At some point I looked up and there was a very angry cop in a cruiser behind me, lights flashing. I thought he was after the car in front of me, which looked something like my car. But no, he pulled me over and man, was he mad! According to him, he waved me down around a work site several blocks back; he said I looked at him and my eyes widened and I took off. He gave me a ticket and said I was lucky he didn't arrest me for failure to stop. Now why a middle-aged woman with a clean driving record would suddenly go on the lam is beyond me, but I guess not to him. I was really mad too but I couldn't defend myself because I honestly wasnt aware of what had happened. Later, I thought of several brilliant Law-and-Order style defenses - like I was wearing dark sunglasses, how could he see my eyes widen? But just then, I had felt really helpless - I just didn't have the relevant information to show him he was wrong. Was that dissociation? Yes. Was it pathological? No, probably not, but it sure as hell was maddening and darned expensive to boot.
Dissociation capability be be connected to brain structure and function. Some people naturally dissociate more easily than others. Ive been told it can be an inheritable trait that may also be related to hypnotizability. My daughter's T tried a test one time on both of us in the office. I don't remember the particulars but it was something like she instructed us to imagine a table in the room, put some things on it, imagine walking around it and looking at it from different views, what it would look like if we came through one door or the other, etc. I gather it was easy for both me and my daughter. Pretty interesting. I think it may have something to do with brain wiring, maybe right-left brain stuff. I have seen it suggested that the use of dissociation is a creative and adaptive response for surviving very harmful life experiences, that is used by people who may innately be good at dissociating. I don't feel comfortable commenting on any of this because of my lack of knowledge but I do think it's pretty interesting as a phenomenon.
Also, in some cases, childhood amnesia need not be a consequence of adaptive forgetting. It can also be a function of the brain's partial inability to encode early memories, which can happen for reasons besides trauma. I thought that was interesting too, since I have childhood amnesia. You can tell I've been reading a lot ;)
Anyway, I dont mean to get all pedantic, just wanted to say that dissociation itself is not a disorder. So you probably neednt worry if you find yourself doing it in the absence of any other symptoms of dissociative disorders. Maybe you just need a vacation! Hope this helps.
Lucie
Posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 15:08:19
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy, posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 21:53:52
you wanted me to post about it. I think I will. Mainly so I can hold on to the good feelings he gave me. It was a good session. He is a good analyst.
Should I start a new thread even though this is about dissoc disorders.
rsk
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 15:26:40
In reply to Re: Muffled, talked with p-doc today and..., posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 15:08:19
either way is fine.
You might want you very own thread, but if you kinda want to hide, post here.
Like I say, either way :-)
M
Posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 16:26:44
In reply to Re: Muffled, talked with p-doc today and..., posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 15:08:19
Rsk, wherever you post I'd like to hear about it too. I'm glad it sounded like it went well. I'm really glad you have a good T.
-L.
Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2008, at 19:53:00
In reply to Re: Dissoc disorders, not easy to muffled and Luci » Phillipa, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 10:34:50
Lucilu thans so much as I've always been a daydreamer. Have been driving and forgot an exit or something and realized and had to turn around and go back. So that's form of dissasociation. To many people think it's like Sybil. And I'm sure you all know that book and movie. Love Phillipa funny thing is never worried about this until couldn't work anymore due to anxiety. Sometimes think I have Alzheimers as can't remember a lot. But then no memories of a lot of childhood either.
This is the end of the thread.
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