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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2008, at 18:17:40
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
I perhaps don't understand the context, but I don't agree.
While it's true that our experiences help shape who we are, surely it isn't the memory of them that shapes that.
I suppose they say that people with amnesia have "lost their identity". But I don't think that's due to their inability to remember long term events...
Posted by muffled on May 4, 2008, at 0:52:12
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
I dunno who *I* am.
I get weirded out and mebbe jealous of people talking bout being a kid.
When my sibs talk bout stuff, I try to remember, but I get anxious and shut down.
I feel like I was planted in my family by aliens or something.
Sometimes I can remember a few bits, but very very little, and sometimes I not sure if I remember or it was told to me by sibs.
I now realize that I must have a chronological history. I MUST. But I honestly didn't realize it it B4. I just existed primarily from day to day.
I still not sure who *I* am.
Who am I typing these words?
A fragment?
I dunno.
Sucks.
Used to bother me alot, having no history, but I used to it now.
Knowing that there IS a history, even if I don't remember, helps.
I am real. I exist.
Cut me, do I not bleed?
M
Posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 2:39:23
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
>Memory is identity. It's you.
Maybe.
>And I thought well then I am f**ked.
Of course.
>My memories are still so fragmented I haven't many: 3 or 4 from my childhood through my 20's to be exact and those are only snippets, not whole memories
You know, at this stage I only have memories of memories, and not so many of even those from my childhood.
You know how old people end up, repeating the same stories all the time?
I rather liked that, although I knew the stories backwards.
But then I don't think it matters much, but what do I mean when I say that?
Posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 2:41:15
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by muffled on May 4, 2008, at 0:52:12
What do people think of the idea that....
'Egos are fictional entities'?
Posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 2:43:05
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by muffled on May 4, 2008, at 0:52:12
Or for that matter, while the enthusiasm of the first drink of the day still lasts.....
'It's not so much a living hell
It's more a dieing fiction'.
Posted by vwoolf on May 4, 2008, at 8:23:18
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
I came across this same quotation a few years ago, and like you, I was very struck by it. It seemed to mean that memory defined me, was who I am. I found it a terrible thought. For myself, for humanity. That we are forever controlled by the past. That all we ever do, the way we see the world, is in terms of the past. That we cannot free ourselves of it, and so we keep repeating it. For those of us with traumatic pasts, it is a shocking affirmation.
I have thought about it a lot, and discussed it with colleagues who work in the field of memory and reconciliation and healing. I have come to the conclusion that it is possible to transcend the past, to become more than memory-controlled robots. But it takes a great deal of self-awareness, to reach a point where one is able to make choices that are not dictated by what has happened before. If I can become aware of what I am doing, and my reasons for doing at any given moment, then I can choose freely. At this point memory shapes my identity, but is not the whole of my identity. It is possible for me to be more.
However I think it is not easy to reach that point. It takes courage to look at my past, to examine who I am without being afraid of the ugly bits. But as long as I hide from it, it will be my destiny to repeat it. And memory will be my identity.
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2008, at 8:35:47
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 2:41:15
> What do people think of the idea that....
>
> 'Egos are fictional entities'?Now that one I agree with, I think. Alex used to write a lot about that. You might find it interesting to use the search function at the bottom of the page and see if you can find any of those posts.
Posted by raisinb on May 4, 2008, at 11:09:21
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
Here is what I would like to believe:
Memory *is* identity. But we choose how to remember things. Through healing, we take all the horrible things that have happened to us, integrate them, accept them, and take something positive from them. We transform the memories. Not the events, but how we choose to construct their meaning.
An example for me--my parents didn't love me. Maybe someday I can remember that as a fact, as a result of their own issues, their circumstances, not as a confirmation that I am unlovable. Maybe I can remember the little girl in that scenario not as a needy repulsive creature, but as a beautiful child I myself can love and maybe other people can someday too.
There is a type of therapy called narrative therapy. I think this is basically what they have you do--rewrite your story. Our identities to a great extent *are* the stories we tell about ourselves, but I think we can have a lot more control over the stories if we try.
Posted by rskontos on May 4, 2008, at 16:25:28
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by muffled on May 4, 2008, at 0:52:12
Muffled, I am with you there. I too have no memory of my younger life, and yet both of my sisters tell me stuff that has happened and it still inspires no recollection. I was having memories come back to me but I shut them down. they scared me because of the SA stuff. Slowly on my own, I am letting them come back. I have learned to control them on my own somewhat. I can open my mind to them some, and I can close it some. I am just knowing at some point they will take over and I won't be able to control it. At least this is my belief, and to be honest I am not sure if it when help or hinder to know all the gory details. If it would give me more of an identity or not and if it would help unfragment or cause more of a rift. Do you get that.
But I get how you feel. I feel this same so much of the time:( and I am not sure therapy helps.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 4, 2008, at 16:26:19
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2008, at 18:17:40
I dont know Dinah, but I do think the memories has something to do at least for me I have lost mine becuase of what they contain.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 4, 2008, at 16:28:24
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 2:39:23
Well I would agree except I know my mind went to great lengths to escape mine so it is hard for my mind not to say your identity is something to escape too. I have a hard time knowing reality too. I don't know. Like I said I might be f**ked.
And the Memory is identity. It is you. I did not write I just read it and wondered.
It is a puzzle.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 4, 2008, at 16:33:37
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by vwoolf on May 4, 2008, at 8:23:18
Ahhhhh, then I think it is right and I am f**ked until I deal with the naked ugly truth. But being dissociative I struggle with finding it and my mind allowing my memories to be restored. I was on the path and the flashbacks were coming fast and I got so frightened as I wasn't as prepared as I thought. Be careful what you wish is so true. So now I must start over as the memories are repressed again. I can open my mind to an extent but there is a huge extent others control still. So I still have huge amounts of work to do.
I really appreciate your response. Self awareness is only recently become something I am being to explore. I still make choices dictated not by me.
Man this is great. Thanks so much for the reply.
rsk
Posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 16:46:44
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » Sigismund, posted by rskontos on May 4, 2008, at 16:28:24
There's an interesting fim called "Memento" (sp?) about someone who entirely lacks short term memory.
He retains his identity, but of course has difficulties with function.
Posted by B2chica on May 5, 2008, at 8:06:57
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
i hope that's not true. cuz i don't have lots of memories. well i do but not good ones. i'm always scared to death someones going to ask me to share memories of my childhood and all i can think of is someone abusing me. a memory of fear, shame and humiliation.
every time someone in my family tells a story of when i was younger i am so surprised by that story...i just don't remember it. whether it be good, scary, funny-whatever.and the thought that one entity 'defines' me i don't like. i feel we are shaped by many. memories are but one.
Posted by B2chica on May 5, 2008, at 8:07:59
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 16:46:44
i would like to see that one. i'll have to try and find it.
> There's an interesting film called "Memento" (sp?) about someone who entirely lacks short term memory.
>
> He retains his identity, but of course has difficulties with function.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2008, at 8:11:05
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by B2chica on May 5, 2008, at 8:06:57
> and the thought that one entity 'defines' me i don't like. i feel we are shaped by many. memories are but one.
I like that. And I agree.
Posted by rskontos on May 5, 2008, at 15:49:51
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by B2chica on May 5, 2008, at 8:06:57
B2c, I too hope not but I do know for me, at least, my memories and the escape of them, has shaped me. Well, actually what is behind them. So I guess if you look at it more in depth, meaning, the memories are shaped by events, sometimes powerful beyond belief and those events shape the person, those events being good or bad, then the memories put down in memory banks, whether remembered or not, do shape your identity is a truth I can understand. Whether or not you remember them still can impact your behavior in terms how how you act. The brain can shield you by repression of those memories, it will repress the good and the bad, it still shapes you. Now hopefully along the way, you will have additional memories that you do remember and those events shapes you more, a marriage, a graduation, good friends, a job, etc. I can understand this. I hope that we can slowly with awareness like vwoolf said replace those painful memories and re-write them with better ones so we don't go over and over them.
I am slowly learning to just be ok with my lack of memories and feelings. To be ok with my big ole dissy self.
But I am not really like therapy right now.
but that is another story.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 5, 2008, at 16:26:08
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on May 4, 2008, at 16:46:44
Sigismund, I think I will order that movie.
Sounds interesting. And I am still thinking about ego's. rsk
Posted by Sigismund on May 6, 2008, at 0:55:54
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » Sigismund, posted by rskontos on May 5, 2008, at 16:26:08
A long long time ago I was having an acid trip with a friend and we talked all night and at one point he said to me that someone had said to him
'Egos are fictional entities'So I was in an impressionable state and it made quite an impression on me.
Posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 7:59:19
In reply to Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 3, 2008, at 18:02:02
I'm not at all sure that "memory is identity" is true - although, it may be.
If we assume it is, then that still leaves room for a lot of hope. We are always creating new memories of different experiences.
Who is to say that the new (sometimes good!) memories aren't also shaping our identity?
Who is to say that we can't begin to re-write our identity by accumulating new and positive relationships, experiences and feelings?
Seldom.
Posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 10:30:21
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 7:59:19
yes seldom I hope so as my old ones are inacessible by me at the present. and as for dragging them up well i am not sure bout that right now. i am not really bonding right now with my t and dragging them would be a lonely affair. I am having weird dreams and some flashbacks. I don't encourage them and he has to drag them out of me. I don't willingly tell them about them. I am a very reluctant participant at the moment. I still feel after all our talks he is bored. /so I am considering my options. Reading the article Muffled posted really made me think. So I am thinking maybe it is time to make some new memories elsewhere.
although for me being postive these days is increasing harder. But I am still trying.
How goes your work?
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 10:32:19
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » rskontos, posted by Sigismund on May 6, 2008, at 0:55:54
So Sigismund, what was your impression of the statement "Egos are fictional entities". That they don't exist as the statement literally implies. Or is is deeper than that. I tried to read up on what the academics thought. I still have no direct thoughts on the subject.
What are your thoughts. You asked for ours.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 10:36:27
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 10:32:19
From what I read about Jung's thoughts it seems him reduced it more normal functioning egos and identities and for me I feel I am anything but that.
Maybe for those coming from fairly stable environments the ego functions very well and can establish a stable identity that helps the person in a variety of situations. I don't know. I don't know I have strong identities on any side.Again, your thoughts.
rsk
Posted by B2chica on May 6, 2008, at 13:33:48
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking » B2chica, posted by rskontos on May 5, 2008, at 15:49:51
even if you believe that, remember. there IS a big difference between something Shaping you, and owning you.
yes our background and environment shaped us. but it is not US. we are MORE that our memories, we are our present and our future, we are our dreams and our ambitions. we are what we wish for others and for ourselves.
we are characters in our favorite tv shows, we are our favorite book authors, we are our favorite musicians, our favorite colors and our favorite foods.
we like and dislike things because of our experiences, but we are who we are because of our soul, our spirit. No one can shape that but us.Remember that dear rk.
remember that.b2c.
Posted by Sigismund on May 6, 2008, at 15:33:21
In reply to Re: Something I read today got me thinking, posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 10:32:19
Well, one standard idea is that our sense of self is an illusion like film is an illusion.
In a film we have the sensation of continuity as our eyes and minds blur over the succession of stills to create the impression of movement.
Similarly our sense of ourselves could be seen to be created by the succession of present moments of conciousness that we smooth over and in so doing create the feeling of a continuous self.
I have no idea what I think of this.
I was talking to my doctor about some photos he had of sand forms in the Sahara, and I made some comment about self-replicating (non-living) forms, and I can't remember how we got there, but I do remember him saying as he laughed
'Nobody home'
meaning, I guessed something along the same lines.
I don't know.
Isn't that one reason why people love little children so much?
Because they have not lost the ability to live in the present?So, I'm just aimlessly wondering if the sense of self is strongest for those who have most trouble living in the present.
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