![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 9:59:33
Hi,
This is my first post in this section, I'm having an inner struggle- one in which I feel torn between my former T. (haven't seen him for over a year- but we keep in touch still through email) and my new T. that I've seen now for about 4 months.......
Here's the thing..... Former T. was/is VERY much against drugging those that struggle emotionally-- he feels meds just prolong the healing process. So while I was working with him- for almost 3 years- I wasn't taking any medication. I have been diagnosed with several things-- major depressive disorder-recurrent,moderate level; various personality disorders; PTSD-from childhood traumas and OCD. The new T. I'm seeing has mentioned, that in order for me to progress towards healing she thinks meds are necessary. I'm feeling quite confused as I don't know which is the best way!??! My former T. sends me emails now and then about how meds are harmful and how there is NOT ONE clinical study that proves a "chemical" imbalance is the cause.
I feel torn between the two T.s! I am also petrified of the side effects of meds!
My new T. gave me the name and number of someone that could prescribe me anti-anxiety medication-- I haven't called yet as my anxiety goes in over-load just thinking of calling!! :o(What to do .... what to do.....
I'd appreciate any advice/insight.
thank you,
fl-flutterby
Posted by fayeroe on March 21, 2008, at 10:33:59
In reply to First post in this section......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 9:59:33
Is your "old T" a psychologist or Pdoc? If he is a psychologist, I question how he knows so much about chemical imbalances? I believe that it takes a medical doctor, Pdoc, to diagnose you and prescribe meds for you.
I believe, strongly, in meds because I would not be here if not for trying different ones until I hit the one that was meant for my DX. I would be long gone by now. And I mean that!
Please see a Pdoc for advice...Dr. _____ saved my life. I also take an anti-anxiety med and you'll have to work awfully hard to pry it out of my hand! :-)
xoxxox to you, Pat
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:45:22
In reply to First post in this section......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 9:59:33
I can see why it would be confusing to have two therapists, both holding such strong opinions, trying to influence your decision.
One of the tenets of therapy is that therapists should not try to impose their views upon clients, yet this is an area where professional expertise does come into play.
Are your former therapist's emails in answer to your questions about medications?
My personal view of medications is that they can be useful additions to therapy. They can help with the anxiety and obsessive thinking enough to let the therapy actually work. That they can provide a sort floor, to keep a client from dropping too far down while exploring things in therapy.
On the other hand, as my previous pdoc said to me, "taking medications produces side effects, and not taking medications produces side effects". He left it up to me what I was able to tolerate. And I settled on some as needed medications for anxiety and upset. They don't seem to have long term effects on me, if I use them occasionally. And it helps me through the roughest parts.
I think that if you find a good pdoc, he will acknowledge the side effects, and help you work out a balance that works for your life.
Welcome to Psychology. :)
Posted by Phillipa on March 21, 2008, at 10:50:05
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:45:22
Very confusing when one says one thing and another something else. Maybe see a pdoc and see what suggestions he has to make and then decide . Good luck and welccome. Phillipa
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 11:02:31
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by fayeroe on March 21, 2008, at 10:33:59
> Is your "old T" a psychologist or Pdoc? If he is a psychologist, I question how he knows so much about chemical imbalances? ....
My former T. is a psychologist. Well, it's the studies that are "lacking" that makes him disbelieve. There really isn't ONE, not even ONE proven study of a "chemical" imbalance in the brain-- it's only EVER been a theory. It still is a theory.
> I believe, strongly, in meds because I would not be here if not for trying different ones until I hit the one that was meant for my DX. I would be long gone by now. And I mean that!....<
This is what makes it so hard for me to decide what to do-- I hear of people like you that feel they have their life back--(I'd like that!) I think that is so wonderful. But then, the side effects-- I'm so worried about. I'm very glad for you Pat-- how certain meds have been beneficial in your life-- maybe I could be that way too?
>
> Please see a Pdoc for advice...Dr. _____ saved my life. I also take an anti-anxiety med and you'll have to work awfully hard to pry it out of my hand! :-)
......
That's cool! :o)
Not that I'm trying to be stubborn, it's just that my anxiety stems from obessissive thoughts that occur/are triggered at any moment and can last for days.... so an "as needed" med probably wouldn't do for me. I fear I'll have to take something daily for a long duration-- something that will keep my mind on an even keel(sp?) and I'm mostly afraid of long-term medication! I even quit my synthroid(have had hashimotos disease since my twenties) for a time a few years back as I felt it was bad-- of course the doctors got VERY angry-- and proved my body really needed it. :o(I feel if I don't call and see this doc that my new T. will get frustrated with me.... and I do think she is very kind and is wanting to help me..... *sigh*.......
OK-- I can call and set up an appointment and then ..... I'll have some more time to think on it before the appointment day........
feel like this shouldn't be a big deal.... but it is for me......... *rolls eyes*....
thanks for your reply Pat!
fl-flutterby (kind of hard not to sign "fins" ;o)...... )
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 11:11:17
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:45:22
> I can see why it would be confusing to have two therapists, both holding such strong opinions, trying to influence your decision.
> ...
Thanks for understanding, it's nice.> One of the tenets of therapy is that therapists should not try to impose their views upon clients, yet this is an area where professional expertise does come into play.
>..... hmmmmm I didn't know that.
> Are your former therapist's emails in answer to your questions about medications?No-- just info that he is sharing.
>
> My personal view of medications is that they can be useful additions to therapy.<.... this sounds like my current T. !!
>They can help with the anxiety and obsessive thinking enough to let the therapy actually work.<.....
this does too!!!> my previous pdoc said to me, "taking medications produces side effects, and not taking medications produces side effects".<
..... yes, that makes sense-- your pdoc is so right! What do I want to tolerate?-- something to think about for sure!> And I settled on some as needed medications for anxiety and upset. They don't seem to have long term effects on me, if I use them occasionally. And it helps me through the roughest parts.
>
.... I'm glad you've been able to get some help.> Welcome to Psychology. :)
.....
Thank you Dinah!
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 11:14:35
In reply to Re: First post in this section......, posted by Phillipa on March 21, 2008, at 10:50:05
> Very confusing when one says one thing and another something else. Maybe see a pdoc and see what suggestions he has to make and then decide . Good luck and welccome. Phillipa
Yes, it is confusing me. :o(Good idea-- just going in to see them doesn't mean I will take anything or not.
thanks too for the welcome Phillipa!
Posted by Annierose on March 21, 2008, at 11:27:27
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:45:22
Basically just adding to what Dinah's wrote about in her post.
My daughter started therapy 4 years ago with a traditional psychodynamic therapist. Within a month of weekly sessions, the t asked to meet with my husband and I.
She said she isn't one to suggest medication readily for anxiety and/or depression for children, but sometimes without the medication, the therapy process is impeeded. She referred us to a p-doc and within a few weeks the change in my daughter's life was amazing. Having that extra help, helped her to feel better about her self, her self control and more open to the therapy process. So in my daughter's situation, the medication was so helpful. We started her on a small dose and only raised it once over the years, and tried twice to ween her off unsuccessfully. She is one of those people that needs that extra help and thank goodness medication exists and work. My husband was so frightened and now he is a true believer and supporter.
There is no shame in taking a medication. You should be open to meeting with the p-doc and then you can decide what you want to do. You can say to yourself, "I'll try this for 4 weeks and re-evaluate".
Good luck. I can imagine how hard it is to trust the judgment of two differing opinions --- both whom you like.
I would at least give medications a try. Express to your p-doc your apprehension.
Annie
Posted by seldomseen on March 21, 2008, at 11:35:16
In reply to First post in this section......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 9:59:33
I gotta tell you, I tend to take a very pragmatic approach when it comes to meds.
For me, it didn't matter if there were no studies that confirm or refute the claim that a chemical imbalance in the brain promoted mental illness.
What mattered to me was that it could be treated, in my case, quite effectively.
To me, the data were quite clear that a combination of therapy and medication was the most effective at managing the effects of most mental illness and that's what I opted for.
That's the road I took.
It may not be the road for you.
In my opinion, there is no one right and true path that leads to a cure for anyone. I would be very wary of anyone or anything that indicated that there is.
There can be relief however.
Seldom.
Posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 12:59:40
In reply to First post in this section......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 9:59:33
Hi and welcome.
but i'm going to be quick and blunt.
1. you need to decide which T you are seeing.
if you want to stay with your old T then listen to his methods.
if you want to see new T then you NEED to put aside what the old T's beliefs were and listed to new T.2.if YOU on the other hand have issues with taking meds. you need to discuss this with your new T and maybe you and her/him can figure out a game plan.
3.but in my opinion you're trying to take T advice from two T's...this WILL tear you apart emotionally, as you become emotionally connected to your T's and then you are forced to make a choice that you should not be having to make and also having to keep a secret you should not be keeping (more to past issues there also). this is NOT good for you and is not good for your healing.
4.it is ok to remain in contact with your old T but keep the contact as friends...not as T/patient relationship. or this will muddy your current T relationship and harm your healing.
and dear flutterby (LOOOOVE the name btw)
i wish you only the very best and i hope to see you around alot here.
i'm not here that much these days as i'm easily triggered and i'm trying to stay stable. but i try to pop in once and a while.cares
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 13:11:00
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 12:59:40
hope i didn't sound rude. i only had a minute to write. have a few more now but still not much. i guess i'm not so much worried as to whether or not you choose to take medicine or not as to what you are doing with your T's.
it seems that you are seeing one professionally but taking the other ones advice.
this could get you in serious trouble.
i know that it's very hard to let go of our old T's i know...i've been there. but i also know that there is a reason that there are the rules that there are. i kept trying to be friends with my old T but kept noticing that i had nothing to talk with him about except things that i would have told him in session... T/patient things. so we drifted. it broke my heart. i still miss him but have very very fond memories of him. and know it was best.
i dont know what is best for you. but i DO know that about deciding about your meds you can't see one T and listen to another. does the T you are seeing now know about your past T's beliefs? maybe that's someplace you can start. discuss that and find out where YOU really stand on the issue of medication.the good thing about medication is it will always be there if you change your mind....AND you can also always stop it if you decide to start it and don't like it.
but talk ....talk talk talk to your T. make sure your T understands your unsuredness to take medication. and why. and maybe if you did start, to start slow, small. little benzo for anxiety or something. or maybe talk to a pdoc.
there are holistic things you can do for mood also....
diet,
exercise
light boxes
are all things that can maintain your mood (from depression)best best wishes
b2c.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 14:58:34
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » B2chica, posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 13:11:00
Thanks for such great replies. All your insights have given me some things to think about- thank you.
and... not to worry B2c-- you didn't come across as rude at all-- I prefer blunt any day over sugar coating! I like things straight to the point.
I did tell my new T. about how my former T. doesn't believe in "chemical" imbalances and that I didn't take any meds at that time. So she does know about that. She also knows I feel I will lose a part of myself, it's a part that I've grown to love and hate.... it feels so intensely for anyone that is hurt- yet it keeps me from being too close to others as it is so painful. I'm afraid to lose it and fear meds will change me! ( what if I become callous or mean!!?)
And B2c.... ummm I've thought about the crazy balance I seem to be doing with keeping in contact with two T.s.(though my former one- that I email, is more like a collegue than patient-doctor relationship-- though I have no education myself in the field) It could be harmful yes.... I just can't tell yet, if it is or not for me. *shrugs*....
I will keep all the wonderful replies I have gotten here in mind-- and
--I did it... I just called and made an appointment.... the office there is so busy that I won't be seen for 6 weeks!! so I have lots of time to think about this issue.... hmmm... not sure if that's a good thing(flutterby says, as she bites her nails)..... ah well...
thanks again to everyone! You've all been a great help!
fl-flutterby
Posted by rskontos on March 21, 2008, at 15:07:58
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c..., posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 14:58:34
Fleeting Fluuterby,
I wanted to welcome you first. I have alot of anxiety as well. To the point now of panic attacks. My p-doc who is also my therapist prescribe me something for it. At first as needed and then I needed him to say daily since as needed the pills became nightstand decorations. Now that i am taking it on a more regular basis, I have come to finally recognize my anxiety and I take before I get so bad that I have a panic attack. I understand not wanting to change yourself but have you thought that the change could be a good one.
You without so much anxiety would be a relief, right. I so understand. I finally told me p-doc/therapist that I got it. I know when I am anxious and I can admit it to myself. He said that is progress.
As for the two T's, B2C, hey sweetie, gave you great advice I wholeheartedly agree with. IN fact, everyone did. I won't name everyone for fear my faulty memory will make me forgot someone. The advice is sound. I too hope to see you around.
Take care, and welcome.
rsk
Posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 15:31:50
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c... » fleeting flutterby, posted by rskontos on March 21, 2008, at 15:07:58
jus doin a shout out to RK.
hey sweetie.
hope all is well with you.sorry i been stranger.
you know the same story. trying to stay together! ha.
still triggery here.but have a great weekend you...
and all babblers.later
b2c.
Posted by rskontos on March 21, 2008, at 17:24:16
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c..., posted by B2chica on March 21, 2008, at 15:31:50
Posted by Phillipa on March 21, 2008, at 19:26:46
In reply to Re: First post in this section......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 11:02:31
You remind me of me as when I took my first synthroid for hasimotos almost threw it up and gagged. Felt my body had failed me. What happened when you stopped the synthroid. Mine is hasimostos too autoimmune one. Phillipa
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 23, 2008, at 15:36:48
In reply to Re: First post in this section...... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Phillipa on March 21, 2008, at 19:26:46
> You remind me of me as when I took my first synthroid for hasimotos almost threw it up and gagged. Felt my body had failed me. What happened when you stopped the synthroid. Mine is hasimostos too autoimmune one. Phillipa<
Actually I had been on synthroid for 10 years when I decided to go off it.... I don't know, something just said- in my head- that it was fake and I was being tricked. So I quit taking it a couple months before I had my yearly blood check for the thyroid levels. The doctor called me in a few days after the blood work test came back and he got so angry with me :o( He said my levels where dangerous and I should NEVER EVER stop taking this, that I must take it the rest of my life. Well, I don't recommend anyone try that kind of strategy I tried-- as I believe that was the beginning of several clinical-depression episodes... it was very horrible.
So you have Hashimotos too Phillipa. <3<3<3 (--> those are supposed to be hearts, seems they look more like ice cream cones with this font!) How's it going for you?
One day I told my former T. as he said I self-sabotage a lot-- I told him.. "Gee.. it seems even my body is against itself, as it has attacked it's own thyroid and has rendered it useless."fl-flutterby
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2008, at 20:11:38
In reply to Re: First post in this section......Hashimotos..., posted by fleeting flutterby on March 23, 2008, at 15:36:48
Well we'll pretend they are hearts thanks. I've yet to figure out why depression hit when thyroid went. Was told same thing take for life. Before this only well controlled anxiety. And the sad thing is that there are so many autoimmune diseases that can pop up but this is a very common one. Aside from theraphy when working seemed like a lot of psych patients had thyroid disease too. My pdoc says makes depression harder to treat. When your levels were stable depression went away? Or other meds too? Love Phillipa
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 24, 2008, at 9:55:43
In reply to Re: First post in this section......Hashimotos... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2008, at 20:11:38
> I've yet to figure out why depression hit when thyroid went.<
Yeah, it's strange- but there is supposed to be a great link between those with low- unchecked thyroid and depression. There can even be psychosis in some people. Here's just one site of many: http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/004348.html (hope it's OK I post a link .... I don't know the rules here just yet!)
>Was told same thing take for life. Before this only well controlled anxiety.<
I was young when my thyroid disease was discovered- I've always had anxiety along with depression-- the depression just got worse as years went by. Can I ask you--- did you feel better after having taken thyroid meds for a while? Did your emotional state improve?> My pdoc says makes depression harder to treat.<
hmmm.... not ever been told that-- maybe that's partly why my depression is so hard to manage, in addition to relationship dynamics I'm struggling with.> When your levels were stable depression went away? Or other meds too?<
See-- that's the thing I don't get, in my case anyway, after my thyroid levels got back to normal(from not taking the thyroid meds for two months) the depression remained and even gradually got worse-- so I had to be put on an anti-depressant. which was scary for me(so fearful of side effects) and so as soon as I was feeling a bit better I quit taking it.
wishing you and everyone a great day!
fl-flutterby
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2008, at 18:52:38
In reply to Re: First post in this section......Phillipa..., posted by fleeting flutterby on March 24, 2008, at 9:55:43
Are you saying that the depression got better two months on an antidepressant and Thyroid meds and then you stopped taking which the antidepressant or the thyroid meds? Which one of each were or are you on. And did you have side effects to the ad. A lot of questions important to me thanks. And anxiety did you take a med for that too? Love Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on March 25, 2008, at 10:05:27
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c..., posted by fleeting flutterby on March 21, 2008, at 13:58:34
Flutterby, welcome!
This is a question I have really struggled with, so I can relate. I've refused to take meds for years, despite urging from parents and friends (and I once left a T for telling me I needed meds!)
I think that there is no answer that's right for everyone. So many people are helped by medication, and maybe you'll be one of them.
What helped me was to explore what taking meds symbolized for me. I felt very much like you--that my pain was a part of me, and if I medicated myself to make it go away, I'd be treating myself as I was treated as a child--shoved off to the side because I was difficult, not as happy or easy as I was supposed to be. When my former therapist insisted that I was "biologically damaged" and needed medication, I heard her saying "you're irrevocably messed up and unfixable, and I don't know how to help you except to drug you." In hindsight, I know that's probably not what she meant, but in the moment, it destroyed our relationship.
On the other hand, my refusal to take something that might help me is part of a slightly unhealthy perfectionist tendency on my part. I can't stand to admit there are flaws I can't fix alone.
My point is that I think it's very important for you, with your new T, to explore all the symbolic meanings of the conflict between two Ts, and just what taking medication *means* for you. I think that is different for everyone, and I think it's important to have a safe space to explore what those meanings are as you make these decisions.
Take care of yourself. This is a difficult issue.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 25, 2008, at 16:30:25
In reply to Re: First post in this section......Phillipa... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2008, at 17:52:38
> Are you saying that the depression got better two months on an antidepressant and Thyroid meds and then you stopped taking which the antidepressant or the thyroid meds? Which one of each were or are you on. And did you have side effects to the ad. A lot of questions important to me thanks. And anxiety did you take a med for that too? Love Phillipa<
I'm sorry Phillipa, I can be confusing *blushing*- I often struggle with being understood/making sense.
I've been on thyroid meds since my 20's and will have to be on them the rest of my life as my thyroid is non-functional at this time. There was a two month time period I stopped thyroid meds(after I'd been on them for 10 years) because I believed I didn't need them. I have always struggled with depression but after having stopped the thyroid meds I went into a horrible clinical depression- the deepest I've ever had. I resumed my thyroid meds then and that's when I took an anti-depressant. (my first and only time I've taken such a medication). I was on the anti-depressant for about 5 months and then I stopped it-- I continue to take the thyroid med.
Now, my current T. is thinking that I might benefit from some kind of anti-anxiety medication. I'm only taking the daily thyroid med at this time. I've never been on an anti-anxiety med... was only on an anti-depressant for 5 months.
Hope I've explained it better... if not let me know, I don't mind.... I know I'm not so good at communicating.
fl-flutterby
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 25, 2008, at 16:53:31
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c... » fleeting flutterby, posted by raisinb on March 25, 2008, at 10:05:27
Thanks for the welcome raisinb! It's nice to hear that others relate.
> I think that there is no answer that's right for everyone. So many people are helped by medication, and maybe you'll be one of them.>
.... Yes, this is a very good point.
> What helped me was to explore what taking meds symbolized for me. I felt very much like you--that my pain was a part of me, and if I medicated myself to make it go away, I'd be treating myself as I was treated as a child--shoved off to the side because I was difficult, not as happy or easy as I was supposed to be. When my former therapist insisted that I was "biologically damaged" and needed medication, I heard her saying "you're irrevocably messed up and unfixable, and I don't know how to help you except to drug you." In hindsight, I know that's probably not what she meant, but in the moment, it destroyed our relationship.>....... YES, it's such a coincidence that you would post this today!--- I just got home from seeing T. and this is just what we talked about, told her how I would feel "defective", "not good enough", if I started on meds..... not that I think of others that way that are on meds, Oh NO-- I don't-- it's just thoughts about myself. (and I'm also so afraid of side effects!)
> On the other hand, my refusal to take something that might help me is part of a slightly unhealthy perfectionist tendency on my part. I can't stand to admit there are flaws I can't fix alone.<..... Yep, that is ME too.
> My point is that I think it's very important for you, with your new T, to explore all the symbolic meanings of the conflict between two Ts, and just what taking medication *means* for you. I think that is different for everyone, and I think it's important to have a safe space to explore what those meanings are as you make these decisions.<......Yes, we did do that today except-- I didn't talk about my former T. and how he doesn't believe in medicating the emotionally struggling. I was too afraid to....... she might have yelled -- "WHAT! are you going to go by what your former T. says, someone you no longer see, OR are you going to listen to ME?"...... I was fearful that bringing it up might cause anger. :o(
(I'm so uncomfortable with that emotion)thank you for your reply. It's so nice to hear from others -- their insights and ideas.
fl-flutterby
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 25, 2008, at 16:56:45
In reply to Re: First post.... Annierose, seldom, B2c..., posted by fleeting flutterby on March 25, 2008, at 16:53:31
not so good at this posting here yet.*blushing*...... I forgot to change the "subject" line to be directed to raisinb.....
fl-flutterby
Posted by Phillipa on March 25, 2008, at 18:50:42
In reply to Oops-- above post is to raisinb......, posted by fleeting flutterby on March 25, 2008, at 16:56:45
I also fear meds as my thing is my body failed me when I'd done the opposite of my Mother whom cortisone killed. Hence when thyroid went my body failed me. And horrible side effects from meds. But really not very functional as anxiety has me trapped. Phillipa and been on benzos for too many years to count don't work anymore.
This is the end of the thread.
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