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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
The fight I had with my T yesterday is the same fight we've been having for weeks. Overall we have an intense up and down relationship, with amazing sessions punctuated by horrible, devastating ones.
Lately I have realized how angry I am about all the things she's said and done to hurt me--the mistakes she's made, the things she did not address, etc.--over the past three years, especially one very hurtful comment she made in November that resulted in me cutting myself (for the first time ever) and leaving therapy for awhile. It seems like I have so much anger at her I can't even stand to think about it. I vacillate between refusing to talk (as revenge, and protection) and yelling at her. Yesterday was a yelling day.
Instead of letting me express my anger and hearing me, she started what she always says--that I'm just in there to convince her to be different, that I won't look at myself, that I'm just in there to put her down or beat her up.
She withdrew and was silent for long periods of time, which is just awful for me (I have the worst time with cold rejection and withholding responses). I've asked her time and time again not to do that, but she won't stop. It feels like punishment and she knows that, but she still does it. So then we got into a fight about that. She says, basically, that it's my transference and she refuses to respond more to me when I ask her to.
I'm at the end of my rope, I'm so upset, I am totally feeling like there is no way I can get her to listen to me. I supposed I feel like what should happen is that I get to express my anger, rage, scream, and she should hear and validate me and try to repair the relationship. Instead, she tries to shut it down and tells me I won't look at myself and plays the transference card.
I know the issues aren't all mine--she's withdrawing, bursting into tears, and arguing with me constantly. but I am having trouble sorting out what is mine and what to do. Can this be right?
Any wisdom would be appreciated :(
Posted by Bodhisattva on February 19, 2008, at 13:43:29
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
>> Instead of letting me express my anger and hearing me, she started what she always says--that I'm just in there to convince her to be different, that I won't look at myself, that I'm just in there to put her down or beat her up.
Is she right? From your post there is quite a bit mentioned about what she's doing, how she is reacting. And that you are made frustrated by her reactions. But very very little about what you're doing, how you are reacting.She may be a little defensive when she says "put her down or beat her up" but she could be entirely correct in saying that you won't examine yourself.
That's all therapy really is, self examination with a guide, an expert on that particular inward journey.
Are you letting her guide the session or are you in the lead? Who asks the most questions? Who has control of the flow. If you find that it's you, you may want to rethink how you are approaching the therapy.
Let me know what you think in regard to that.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 19, 2008, at 13:49:39
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
Holy Cow is all I can say. You say your T is "bursting into tears and withdrawing??!!"
This is bizarre. This is okay for a client; NOT for a therapist. She is supposed to be a professional, and in control of herself.....what is going on here ..sounds as a personal relationship.
There is something wrong with HER. You can go into different websites and look up what to look for in a therapist, etc.......I am studying (to be a t)....by the way......I've read plenty of material on the client/t relationship.....None of it includes the kind of behavior you describe....by a therapist. As a client we can behave any way we want. The therapist is supposed to have ethics and guidelines to follow.
I am so sorry; this is certainly not helping you! Can you consider going elsewhere?
Hugs, Francesca
Has she discussed goals with you?
Posted by mair on February 19, 2008, at 15:53:55
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
I had a pdoc/therapist once who reacted very poorly when I got angry with him. He pulled back and was never really proactive at all in our sessions after that. In my mind our relationship never recovered and eventually I just stopped seeing him. I know how awful it can feel to have someone like that pull back from you.
On the other hand, it sounds like at other times she has let you be angry and she has owned up to things that are her responsibility. Maybe she's trying to draw you past the anger to something a bit more constructive.
just a thought
mair
Posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2008, at 16:17:01
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 19, 2008, at 13:49:39
I agree that isn't a heathly thing for the therapist to burst into tears in front of you. Love Phillipa
Posted by mair on February 19, 2008, at 17:17:45
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
I totally agree that it is not appropriate for this woman to cry in your presence. I didn't want my other post to be read to suggest otherwise.
mair
Posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 8:55:07
In reply to I need to clarify something » raisinb, posted by mair on February 19, 2008, at 17:17:45
Thanks, mair, for the feedback. I guess I thought Ts did cry in sessions occasionally? Is it always considered inappropriate?
She's actually only burst into tears two or three times in the three years I've been seeing her, but she has told me she's been holding back tears several times (when I hadn't noticed in the first place).
To tell you the truth, I like it, because it shows how emotionally involved she is, but I also wonder if it's good for me to believe she cares as much as I do.
Posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 8:56:53
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » raisinb, posted by Bodhisattva on February 19, 2008, at 13:43:29
Actually, we've fought about who's in control of the sessions. Awhile ago, I wanted her to take the lead and help me open up and she refused, saying I wanted her to do all the work, and I argued that it was her job to get things done.
Now I'm taking control and talking what I want to talk about (which she claims she wants when I won't talk), but she fights it tooth and nail.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 20, 2008, at 10:32:15
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » Bodhisattva, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 8:56:53
My 2 cents again. A therapist is supposed to "contain"---meaning have the strength and training to hold any anger or emotions the client has.....without losing it.....and help the client process them. If she is losing control and reacting, she is taking it personally (not ethical or helpful)......she is not helping you. you are supposed to talk about WHATEVER you want to, and she....is supposed to respond to that.
If she is allowing her emotions to get in the way; she is not being objective, and that is harmful. Does she from time to time examine what your goals are? A good therapist does that.
If it is struggle for power; then she is not doing something right....sorry.....that is the scary thing about seeing a t; there is no way to know if what they are doing is helpful, etc....but you can do some research and find out what the therapist/client relationship is about.
A therapist bursting into tears......is never appropriate......as a professional, SHE is supposed to be in control.
If you went to an MD or dentist and they behaved that way, you would know that was unprofessional.
Posted by Sigismund on February 20, 2008, at 13:23:47
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » Bodhisattva, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 8:56:53
Therapy seems to bring issues of control to the fore, don't you think?
I have mixed feelings about that.
Control is SO overdone.(Don't get me wrong; I've done my share of it.)
Posted by Sigismund on February 20, 2008, at 13:37:36
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
I don't think it's odd that your therapist should have cried or gone silent.
Mine did, and it was OK.(Well, I suppose it was OK. How was I supposed to know? If it wasn't OK who's fault was it?
[Is that the question here?]
I was reasonably happy to blame myself as long as I could take her down with me etc etc.)I was going to ask if you felt your T had maintained therapeutic control, but that seems like a terrible question. There is (hopefully) enough control in this situation.
But do you feel she lost it?
Some things in therapy call for silence, maybe even the silent treatment.
I used to dread it. I could feel it coming too.
Posted by Sigismund on February 20, 2008, at 13:41:34
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 20, 2008, at 10:32:15
>A therapist is supposed to "contain"---meaning have the strength and training to hold any anger or emotions the client has.....without losing it.....and help the client process them
That makes me feel quite nostalgic. I haven't heard that language for ages. But that is what it is supposed to be.
Posted by Sigismund on February 20, 2008, at 13:43:39
In reply to Re: I need to clarify something » mair, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 8:55:07
FWIW, I think bursting into tears is unacceptable but weeping is OK (for a therapist).
Posted by MissK on February 20, 2008, at 18:33:16
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
I can't imagine getting into a fight with my T.
>that I'm just in there to convince her to be different, that I won't look at myself, that I'm just in there to put her down or beat her up.
Is there any truth to this? You have mentioned you do view her as an object to punish.
>Lately I have realized how angry I am about all the things she's said and done to hurt me
I presume you've talked about 'these things' - why do you think the anger lingers?
>--she's withdrawing, bursting into tears, and arguing with me constantly. but I am having trouble sorting out what is mine and what to do. Can this be right?
This is really strange. What's happened to the emotional distance / professional boundaries between you two?
Sounds like you two are not very good together, as therapist and client. Three years over what sounds like over-personalisation is a long time. I would consider getting a different therapist.
Posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2008, at 19:51:29
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
A couple of things that came to mind when I read your post. I may be way off base, so please excuse me beforehand if I'm wrong:
1. Does this relationship mirror any you have had in the past? I'm not doubting your anger at her, but is it possible that it is also based on something in your past, certain feelings and behaviors that you experienced in the past? If so, you have come to a potentially turning point in therapy, which is really great if you both can recognize it.
2. My T will let slip a tear or two over something terrible I experienced as a child. She has learned that this upsets me for some strange reason--I feel like it's pity (even though it's compassion), but she knows now I need for her to be the stronger one. That said, I've learned to appreciate her sadness for me (I'm trying!) because it gives me a base for understanding how truly horrific some things actually were, while I have a tendency to downplay them.
So if my T weeped or burst into tears, I'd be upset because it would take me back to weakness and feeling horrible and disgusting about myself (not my interpretation of your situation at all) and we would have to do some hard talking about it.
Interestingly, if my pdoc ever cried I'd fall off the coach! He's just the opposite, and I wouldn't mind seeing a little compassion from him once in a while...
3.Only you know if her behavior is acceptable/helpful to your treatment and whether it works for you. Do you want to push through this with her, or do you think she has crossed your boundary lines and can no longer see clearly enough to help you? I've left Ts for lesser reasons, and you have a really big issue in front of you to decide. I've left Ts with different approaches either when 1)I've decided it's just not working or 2)I'm running away. The second option isn't necessarily bad; it's just that oftentimes it isn't until afterwards that I realized what I've done.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 22:04:29
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2008, at 19:51:29
Hi Antigua, thank you for asking such helpful questions.
Does this relationship mirror any you have had in the past?
Oh yes. Almost exactly. My issue isn't whether I'm repeating my patterns; it's whether she is too involved/pulled into them/competent enough to work them through with me.
And yes, I do see her as an object to punish. I have so much rage that it seems unmanageable.
As for crying...when I read about your T's tears, I felt like hers were "empathy tears"--they express how bad she feels for you. I feel that mine cries to express her own feelings in reaction to me (if that makes sense) and that her tears are for her.
Only you know if her behavior is acceptable/helpful to your treatment and whether it works for you. Do you want to push through this with her, or do you think she has crossed your boundary lines and can no longer see clearly enough to help you?
Well...here's the interesting thing. Yes, her behavior has crossed my boundaries, and no, I don't believe it's helpful or acceptable.
But it does work for me on some level I don't understand. Whenever I think about leaving I get anxious and panicky--I feel like I *need* this relationship--and I got severely depressed when I quit for about six weeks a few months ago.
Am I exploring my own issues in an atmosphere or trust and safety? No.
Am I getting something out of feeling sure in my own conviction that the problem isn't all me, and holding my own, while not leaving the relationship? Am I getting self-esteem and self-acceptance and a sense of strength out of calling her on her b.s. every single time it happens? Do I feel great that I can say "this is wrong" even though I am hopelessly attached to her and the relationship? Yup.
I don't know how healthy or therapeutic that is. It seems a lot different than how therapy's supposed to go, you know? I always thought I'd learn to trust her and relax and change, and somehow I have changed by realizing that I was right about her (in many ways) all along and that all I needed to do was to trust myself.
But I still feel like I'm unable to leave, and I have no excuse except the intense attachment I have to her, and the pain, depression and horrible isolation I'd feel if I left.
Posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 17:35:43
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig* » antigua3, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2008, at 22:04:29
>Do I feel great that I can say "this is wrong" even though I am hopelessly attached to her and the relationship? Yup.
Well, I don't know. Wouldn't it be nicer to to be able to say "this is right" and I am not hopelessly attached to her and the relationship?
The best though is probably to be able to say "this is right" and I am hopelessly attached to her/him and the relationship --as in someone else in your life, not a therapist.
Posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 17:58:52
In reply to *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfighttrig*, posted by raisinb on February 19, 2008, at 12:50:20
> I supposed I feel like what should happen is that I get to express my anger, rage, scream, and she should hear and validate me and try to repair the relationship.
I have no real wisdom to add. I do vaguely remember talking to my therapist about this topic a long time ago. I'm not sure of context. But I think I remember him saying that that wasn't his job. That if he didn't think therapy was progressing beyond that, he probably wouldn't accept it indefinitely. He certainly encourages me to express anger at him. He's even proud of me when I do it. But I think that's because he thinks it's a therapeutic step forward for me.
I don't think anyone here could assess that.
I don't think it sounds as if she's professionally assessing the topic if she's bursting into tears. Perhaps a consultation is in order? You can't be expected to assess it yourself. And if you aren't ready to leave her over it, it occurs to me that an outside impartial consult might be the answer.
Posted by raisinb on February 22, 2008, at 8:12:44
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt, posted by Dinah on February 21, 2008, at 17:58:52
She does consult on me on a regular basis, and she says that what's hers, she's confronting and taking care of outside of our sessions.
But how am I supposed to know if that's true? If she's fooling herself or me?
She says I just have to trust her on that, but I'm finding it rather difficult. How can I know that her issues are being taken care of when it looks to me like she doesn't have a handle on things?
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 8:23:24
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » Dinah, posted by raisinb on February 22, 2008, at 8:12:44
Well, what I actually meant was a consult for both of you together. It is possible to get one where you both go in. That way you're sure that a balanced picture is being given, and you can hear what another therapist has to say.
It might not be too common for one therapist to be negative about another, but I'm sure it's possible for them to frame it in terms of usefulness.
And I think it is advised sometimes when there is an impasse.
I'm not saying it's the right course of action. Just suggesting that it is an option.
Posted by MissK on February 22, 2008, at 17:32:35
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » raisinb, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 8:23:24
>Well, what I actually meant was a consult for both of you together. It is possible to get one where you both go in.
OMG. That goes beyond belief, going to see a counselor with your therapist to discuss your "issues". Bizarre to say the least.
Raisinb, you've mentioned what is going on is wrong. If you know it's wrong don't let it go on. It really is your choice.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 17:42:52
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » Dinah, posted by MissK on February 22, 2008, at 17:32:35
Well, you might find my suggestion "bizarre", but I assure you it is not unheard of in a therapeutic impasse.
It is another one of the many choices clients have available.
Posted by MissK on February 22, 2008, at 18:04:13
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » MissK, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 17:42:52
>but I assure you it is not unheard of in a therapeutic impasse.
Well, in the readings I've done, I've never heard of it. I always thought if therapy wasn't working with a client, the way to preoceed was to get referred to another therapist.
I will leave at that.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 18:13:45
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » Dinah, posted by MissK on February 22, 2008, at 18:04:13
http://www.ancaivan.com/services_asm.htm
There were more, but I'm having trouble with my internet connection.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 18:15:03
In reply to Re: *sigh* another fight--thoughts? *long, Tfightt » MissK, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2008, at 18:13:45
Whoops. The second link doesn't work. It was page 106.
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