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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
I'm sure I must have read this book before, and I'm sure it has been mentioned here, but yesterday in the library I picked up "Between Therapist and Client: The New Relationship" by Michael Kahn and I was blown away by it.
It's written really for people studying to be Ts and pdocs, and it really talks about patients from their perspective--how they should handle our anger, bitterness and countertransference issues that bring up their own issues. What I liked about it was that the author covers so many different types of theories that pdocs study, and how they are taught to respond.
My pdoc is definitely a traditionalist, or old school, I'm not sure how to put it, and he responds at times coldly and indifferently. Now I can see that it's part of his process. I don't necessarily agree with how he behaves all the time, but I understand a whole lot better.
My last session was the worst ever. I hit him with every evil thought I have about him and how he treats me. I know I'm projecting my anger on to him, and I've been very hurtful and cruel, but I guess that's what I need to do. I've never gotten this far with a male authority figure before--by this time old T and other authority figures would have sent me packing. So I'm kind of worried he's going to do that when I see him next, and I hope he doesn't (I would be devastated) and I think there is some great work to be done if we both hang in there.
It's so hard. I'm usually such a nice person, but when the evil part, or the anger, comes out, I can be ruthless. So can he--he actually criticzed me last time!
I'm going to stop being the over intellectualized patient, and give up my pc therapy behavior, and just be me. I hope I get the opportunity to do this and he doesn't send me away. The hardest part is that I don't see him regularly right now (can't afford it) so I have to wait several weeks between appointments some time.
This last time brought up some really ugly feelings. Since it will be a while until I see him, I put those feelings away in my cedar chest so I can get on with my life, and Christmas. Funny thing, though, when I opened the box to put these feelings away, it was a real struggle not to let other bad feelings out!
antigua
Posted by DAisym on December 6, 2007, at 15:05:12
In reply to A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
I have this book and like it too.
It is interesting to me how we can bounce between feeling so positive about our therapuetic relationships and then nose dive into the "do you even know what you are doing?!" place. I'm experienced enough now to sort of know that something old is driving these intense feelings, but it is still very difficult when they come up. I want to run away, quit therapy or go in and stomp my feet and yell at him - "what were you thinking?!"
It is so good that you are allowing yourself to express the thoughts in your head, even if you feel cruel. It is about the unexpressed anger held in so long. I'm sure it is hard for him not to respond in-kind, he is, after all, human... But, I'm hoping, as you are, that his training allows him to see it all for what it is and cope with it.
I suspect that smart, experienced patients are much harder to take critism from as we usually zero in on the sensitive spot and take highly articulate swings at it. My therapist has said to me, "that stings, because there is truth in what you said, but I know you are talking both to me and to someone else." And he didn't dump me - at least not yet. I'm being pretty hard on him right now, so we'll see.
Keep up the good work and let me know if there is extra room in that cedar chest for my stuff too.
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2007, at 15:19:30
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by DAisym on December 6, 2007, at 15:05:12
>It is interesting to me how we can bounce between feeling so positive about our therapuetic relationships and then nose dive into the "do you even know what you are doing?!" place.
*oh you said that SO well Daisy! I'm glad its not just me.
Sometimes I think my T is SO damn clever....other times...well....I guess I see her shortcommings too well, and I become quite worried indeed if she is safe, if she can handle me, if HER transferrence isn't getting in the mix etc etc.
Of course she is NOT perfect, noone is, but sometimes her imperfections scare and frustrate me! Guess this is one of the pitfalls of long term T!Antigua I REALLY hope this p-doc sticks with you. It may be he is enjoying the challenge? I found myself thinking that as I read that post. But I dunno whether its true of him. But you would be a most interesting client!
That was a cool post. Thanks
M
Posted by star008 on December 6, 2007, at 16:25:27
In reply to A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
Sounds like a good book.. I am always trying to figure out what is angle is.. I suppose I should not worry about it but I just want to know.. I sometimes take things out on my T too.. I think we probably all do.. I usually feel bad and have to apologize. Sorry you an't go more often.. It is terribly expensive though. It s...ks that we have to worrya bout how to pay for it when we need it.. good luck to u
Posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 16:56:14
In reply to A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
Antigua, I just realized that I have dehumanized my T so that it won't hurt when she leaves. And she recognized it before me as she told me last session she wasn't leaving and would see me through this. I didn't know why she said that but anytime she tried to let me see glimpses of her the person I cut her off. I saw that yesterday and I must admit it made me feel ashamed of myself I know it is a protective measure. But I know to that it will hinder me in my growth. And boy have I been upside down since. This is thurs. and since mon. when I saw her I have been a basket case. I am better today only because I finally had some animal therapy. I went and say my babies, my horses and they cleansed my soul for now.
I like what everyone had to say and now I must digest this train of thought. Thanks all. rsk
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 6, 2007, at 17:57:52
In reply to A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
I read Kahn's book just as I was starting therapy. I was trying to learn as much as I could about the process and the book was a big help. I like the way it's divided up so it's easily manageable and you can just dip in and out of it.
You wrote:
"I'm going to stop being the over intellectualized patient, and give up my pc therapy behavior, and just be me."I really liked this phrase and it made me smile in agreement - it hits it right on the head - that's exactly what you've got to do (what we've all got to strive for - and it sounds like you're a big part of the way), and I hope your T will have the experience and dedication to see you through this and understand your anger and frustration, working with you through it. My T is forever trying to let me 'just be myself' and stop fretting that I'll upset him or make him angry.
I'm sorry you don't have the opportunity to see your Pdoc more often. Fair enough if you can store these feelings away until next time but if you find otherwise, do you have a way of touching-base with him and helping to put your mind at rest?
Witti
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2007, at 18:01:55
In reply to A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 12:08:43
I own that book! I'll have to glance at it to see if I've read it. I like books written for psychologists. They give me an idea of what my therapist might be thinking. Although he gets annoyed with me sometimes for assuming he thinks the same things they do.
Posted by antigua3 on December 6, 2007, at 20:22:48
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc » antigua3, posted by Wittgenstein on December 6, 2007, at 17:57:52
No, there's no "touching" base with him. He's not good on the phone and doesn't encourage it. He likes all the action to be in the room.
But I do have my T--I can call her anytime and I see her every other week.
Thanks for being supportive. And you know, it really, really, really is OK to post when you need support. You will find a mountain of relief, I promise, and ideas for a way out of your troubles that you may never have thought about on your own. I know, because it has happened many times to me. It's hard to be alone when we suffer, and babblers are always here to help.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on December 7, 2007, at 8:34:59
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc, posted by DAisym on December 6, 2007, at 15:05:12
I know I really got to him because he retaliated by criticizing my writing--he thought something I'd sent him was bulls**t. He actually said that!
Years ago, that would have sent me into a tailspin, but if there is one thing I'm secure about now is my writing. If he did not understand what I was trying to communicate, that's at least half his problem and i'm not going to take all the responsibility for it. (I thought I was pretty clear BTW). But so he hit back with something he knew would hurt, but I didn't let it get to me. Now that's progress. But I do understand where he was coming from, but he shouldn't do that, I know that for sure.
Thanks for your reply. You're right, it's good to get the feelings out, even though I know they are only partly about him.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on December 7, 2007, at 8:36:58
In reply to Daisy, antigua, posted by muffled on December 6, 2007, at 15:19:30
thanks, my T says I'm a good client because I'm willing to go places many others aren't willing. My pdoc says the same, but he has a harder time keeping up with me.
that said, I'm really going to try to get away from everything I know about therapy, and quit couching my responses in terms of what I know about therapy, and just FEEL!
I'm challenging, but I'm worth it!
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on December 7, 2007, at 8:39:36
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc » antigua3, posted by star008 on December 6, 2007, at 16:25:27
Am I breaking a rule here by responding three times in a row?
Anyway, my pdoc says that I apologize as a way of backing off. He doesn't want the apologies, I guess, but when I act like a bad child, I can't help but apologize. He wants the real me, so I guess I won't apologize anymore.
He says every other session is a good one, because I'll open up at one session and then spend the next one closing back up and justifying it with my anger.
Hmmm, he's smarter than I thought.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on December 7, 2007, at 10:44:37
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on December 7, 2007, at 8:34:59
I'm curious if you called him on being hurtful. I think I might have said, "is that an attempt to cut me down or shut me down? It seems you are having some pretty strong feelings about this..."
We can do therapy speak too! :)
I had a tantrum on the phone with my therapist yesterday. I miss him - work is in the way so much right now and I've missed at least a session a week if not the whole week. And we have been working way deep - back about 6 years old when things really started to get out of hand. This is really hard because I can't keep hold of my words nor write about this - I think the confusion and limited vocabulary of a six year old is blocking me. So I told my therapist on the phone: "I don't want to figure this out; I don't want to be introspective or thoughtful; I don't even want to be be polite! I just want to know I'll be OK and you can help and you aren't going to leave because it is all too hard." (stomp, stomp)
He stopped asking questions and went into support mode, and said yes I'll be fine and he is right there and we are connected. And then he left a voice mail later saying it all again.
So I think we can sometimes not be pc, as you said, and it will still be OK.
Posted by antigua3 on December 7, 2007, at 14:45:12
In reply to Re: A book that has helped me understand my pdoc » antigua3, posted by Daisym on December 7, 2007, at 10:44:37
Unfortunately, I was so shocked that I didn't have time to think about what he was actually saying. But don't worry, it's high on my list for next time.
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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