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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
So, I thought I could handle termination well, but apparently I cannot. I hope you all can bear with me through this post…my thoughts are scattered, obsessing about random things here and there. I’m actually not really in any kind of emotional distress, just my mind is completely preoccupied on my T—mostly because I can’t figure him out, and I so desperately want to. I’m jealous about all you who see your T’s on an ongoing basis! Also, I’ve talked to some of you in the chat, and thank you for your advice! I’m sorry I’m asking for more advice—I thought I would internalize him and move on, but apparently not…this is going to be quite long.
So here is my background info: I’m a college student, the only therapy I’ve gotten is in my college counseling center, and including this guy, I’ve seen 3 T’s. I’ve only requested male T’s (I saw a female T for one session, but didn’t feel comfortable so quickly changed). As a student, we are limited to a certain number of free sessions. Now in the past, I’ve never had a problem with this. When I terminated with my first T, I was fine. I never actually terminated with my second. I found out that he had gone and opened up his own private practice upon calling this school year…to which I reasoned as fine and acceptable. I wasn’t really upset at all, especially when I saw my T this year. He was attractive and his style seemed to have resembled my second T, but in actuality I think the resemblance was not really there. The first 2 T’s had excellent strict boundaries, so I knew always what to expect and never missed or regretted anything. I think this is what is causing so many of our posters’ attraction issues…the boundaries being unsure, or maybe it’s actually his therapy orientation (psychodynamic??). He is a predoctoral intern, which may contribute to the boundaries being unsure.
I think I was confused what to make of him most of the time. I mostly wanted to believe he was exactly like my previous T, but he wasn’t when it’d come to him asking questions that would reflect what I thought of him and our therapeutic relationship. I would be totally thrown off track, and wasn’t sure what he wanted me to be or do in the relationship, because at that point I could really be anything. Once he opened up the doors to the interaction being between us, there were so many different layers I could see (that didn’t exist in my previous T relationships), but never talked about because I wasn’t sure if it was OK to or what he wanted. It frustrated me because this caused feelings in me that I wanted to talk about but refrained from doing so because it felt inappropriate, yet he had opened the doors and revealed weakness in himself making me feel like I wanted to protect him (which I also found incredibly attractive).
Anyway, I’m left with a lot of regrets about not being completely honest or aware of the feelings I had towards him. I thought I was portraying what would be thought of as the sane college student (ego) instead of showing my uncontrolled thoughts (Id) underneath, but now that we’ve terminated, I can’t really go back. I’ve actually been frantically researching my insurance to figure out I can go back, but I don’t want to because it’d be embarrassing to go back considering our termination was so final. And maybe all these thoughts I have are not really anything—they’re definitely not anything compared to the serious boundary violations a lot of you have had…but I still want to figure out could he see through me? What did he actually mean by what he was saying? What’d he actually think? His statements like As you were talking, I had a lot of feelings stir up inside of me (what feelings??! Can you relate to me and do we have a lot of similarities?) and his questions like Did you have any problems with your father? (but not my mother?! Do you think I am projecting childlike qualities at you making you feel like you’re my father figure???) and Do you feel like you need to protect me (ack! Can you tell that I like you? What would it mean if I did?). During our termination session, after I avoided talking about our therapeutic relationship (which was in actuality what I really wanted to talk about), he said that he liked me and felt connected to me and didn’t know if I showed him the real sides of me, but felt like it’d be good for me if I showed other people my real sides. Did he really mean that he liked me? Or is it some sort of therapeutic technique? Unconditional positive regard? And isn’t it bad technique to say and fulfill my need to be liked rather than helping me like myself? Did he show doubt about the real me because he could tell I was hiding my true feelings of attraction in response to his questions? Or did he feel countertransference feelings of attraction or being fatherlike that made him doubt my responses? Reading all this now makes me feel silly. I’m sure you’re all going to say, of course he did like you. But it frustrates me because I can’t tell. I can’t read him. I’m not even sure if he was authentic (he was always very controlled and not spontaneous when he was speaking). I want to know to what extent and how much he did, and if he thought I was attractive. It’s too bad. He is probably the most attractive entire package I’ve ever met in my entire life, and I have no clue who he really is or if he feels any of the same thing. I want to figure him out…can you guys help me? I’m frustrated because I think even no matter what you guys say, I think I’ll still be obsessing about him in the hopes that I randomly run into him.
Sorry for the long post. :/
Posted by rskontos on December 1, 2007, at 15:05:11
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
beautymarked, you don't say what drove you to therapy in the first place? So if your therapy with him was successful or not? It sounds like to me when reading your post that you became attracted to him and maybe that prevented you from working with him on your issues. I am not sure. If that is the case you can go at this two ways.
You could find a way to meet him and try and explore seeing on a social level. That the therapy did not work because you were too attracted and did not feel like your were a good fit for therapy. Does this make sense. It does sound in part that he might feel the same way. I think he did get that you were not completely open with him. It is hard for therapy to work when you hide things. Of course, you dont let it all out at once but I can see if I was attracted to man I could never let him be my therapist I don't think I could let all my junk out of my trunk it would interfere. Maybe in time I could overcomed but it would be tough.
Or two you could try to seek him out, apologize for not being open and tell him the termination was too soon and maybe could you extend things. Tell him honestly you will obsess about the whole thing if things end now. See what he says.
These are just what hit me upon reading your thread. I am truly sorry this is happening. Maybe when we go see threapists we should be blinded from any physical attractions until we reach a certain point so this doesn't happen but I believe that a certain amount will happen because I think when you seek a therapist you are in such a state and they seem so caring you can't help but fall a little for someone that answers the call of a heart that is hurting.
Good luck and let us know what you do....Take care of yourself and give yourself some love and patience..And don't apologize for asking for advice or help. That is what Babble is for....rk
Posted by DAisym on December 1, 2007, at 16:15:06
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
Hi Beauty,
Your post wasn't too long. You should see some of mine.
I'm struck by a couple of things. You wrote:
"I think this is what is causing so many of our posters’ attraction issues…the boundaries being unsure, or maybe it’s actually his therapy orientation (psychodynamic??). He is a predoctoral intern, which may contribute to the boundaries being unsure."I think it is normal and natural to become attracted to a person who focuses on you intensely, who listens and who is there for you and cares about you. If this listening and caring comes in an attractive package, it is even more likely that these feelings will get stirred up. I read once that therapy is a set up for falling in love and getting your heart professionally broken. (I think this was from "In Session") I don't think strict boundaries preclude this. I think the boundaries help make it safer to talk about your feelings. Being new, your therapist might have not really known how to bring up all the feelings in the room, although it did seem like he tried - by telling you that his own feelings were activated. And this isn't a bad thing, or a boundary violation, in my opinion. My therapist tells me often how sad he feels for me, or frustrated, or whatever. I don't know if he had other things that made you feel like the boundaries were unsure, but I think you hit closer when you said it was likely his orientation (psychodynamic) that steered him to open the door for these feelings. I'm sorry you never talked about them. It is scary but usually productive. And I doubt there was anything he wanted you to be -- except honest with yourself and him. Therapy is hard in that you have to shake off the need to put your best foot forward in order to get the help you need. I struggle with this too.
You also said:
"Did he really mean that he liked me? Or is it some sort of therapeutic technique? Unconditional positive regard? And isn’t it bad technique to say and fulfill my need to be liked rather than helping me like myself? Did he show doubt about the real me because he could tell I was hiding my true feelings of attraction in response to his questions? Or did he feel countertransference feelings of attraction or being fatherlike that made him doubt my responses?"I think "unconditional positive regard" is the gold standard many therapist shoot for but it is hard to maintain all the time. And that is good because it does allow the ruptures and repairs in the relationship where so much work gets done. But I believe most therapists do like their clients and I think it is OK for them to use themselves and their feelings to help the client. So things aren't mutually exclusive. If he always said "yes I like you" without ever asking why you needed to know or why you couldn't believe him (if this was an ongoing theme) then I'd say he missed something. But particularly in the last session, I think he wanted you to know what was true for him. It might have gone very differently if it was during another time in your therapy or if you were asking instead of him telling you.
And just from reading what you wrote, I'd say he had your number. You admitted hiding your feelings, he sort of called you on it. It doesn't seem like counter-transference, it seems like an accurate read of what was going on in the room. Words certainly aren't the only way we communicate things.
It is too bad you can't go back in and sort this out. Perhaps the way to move forward is to hang on to the positive work you did which allowed you to terminate and to learn the lesson of asking your questions when you can and pushing yourself a bit more about revealing your feelings. Therapy that has to be time limited seems like it would be very hard. I hope you find some peace soon.
Posted by rskontos on December 1, 2007, at 17:19:22
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by DAisym on December 1, 2007, at 16:15:06
Beauty, I really agree with DAisym and didn't she say it so well...
I think it is a shame they only allow x amount of sessions when to me college is a time when a person thinks they need help they should rec all they need and then maybe they can make enough progress that you won't need it later. And while I guess the point is to try and help students in the postdoc programs and to an extent students attending like yourself, I still wonder why so short. I mean what happens if the t thinks you aren't ready for termination. I just feel bad as it doesn't really seem like you were ready to terminated but then again I don't why you went in the first place and you don t say that he helped put rest that orginial reason. If he did then I think like DAismy said you should try and take in all youve learned. I hope you find some solace and answers to it. Good luck, rk
Posted by annierose on December 1, 2007, at 17:41:24
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread (after termina, posted by rskontos on December 1, 2007, at 17:19:22
everthing Daisy said ....
And, college therapy certainly has its ups (free sessions) and downs (early termination).
Are you still on your parent's health insurance? If so, maybe you can begin a search for a therapist who has a private practice. It seemed you liked the style of the psychodynamic t, you can screen a lot of ts on the phone by asking about their orientation, etc. There are other threads in the archives on this too.
Most of all, I don't think your t crossed any boundaries. I don't think he lead you on to believe his feelings for you were romantic. Saying that "he liked you" was true. It's different than saying, "I'm falling in love/like with you" ... which potentially is unethical.
A psychodynamic therapist likes to work with the feelings that come up between the client and the t. For me, those are the hardest and most wonderful sessions to sort through.
Posted by Dory on December 1, 2007, at 19:35:44
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by DAisym on December 1, 2007, at 16:15:06
Daisy, you are gracious as usual.. so well put. i tried several times this afternoon to say something along those lines but it never did come out right so i scrapped it. Thank you for saying it all and more.
Beauty.. did i read right that you "cant" go back mostly due to embarrassment and not due to any other sort of limitation? If that is true.. please consider going back if your insurance allows for longer term.
Posted by star008 on December 2, 2007, at 7:26:40
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
Sometimes it takes a long time to get over a T that you are attracted to.. The worst part here is that you will probably end up getting hurt in the end. It is hard to know what he was thinking towards you.. I suppose you could try to run into him somewhere and you would get a sense of what he feels about you.. I wish you could just forget him so you don't get hurt but I know how that is too. There is the possiblility that he was attracted to you to but most of us with opposotie sex therapists end up with the tranference garbage. Please be careful with your heart. I am afraid you will get hurt in this one.
Posted by beautymarked on December 2, 2007, at 19:15:47
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
Hi all,
I really appreciate your responses. After posting, I actually avoided the boards because I was a bit embarrassed about what I wrote. I honestly don't want to believe I have these feelings. I'm not in love, and I don't expect anything from him at all. I don't expect to be hurt either since I'm too embarrassed to ask for more sessions with him, especially since our termination as so final with the I did this because of this and I like you as a person and take care forever type of deal (or am I just being too stubborn about this?). It is possible that I go and seek my 2nd T out in his private practice once I get insurance figured out for regular therapy...or is it better that I ask for the 3rd T because of the emotions stirred within me? I went in originally to continue therapy...mostly what I concentrate on is interpersonal interactions and relationships with them being not as close as I want them to be (or at least I think). The Ts all concentrated I think in making me in touch with the feelings of situations to make me see myself better and maybe then allow myself to feel like it is OK to be me. Actually, I feel selfish to ask for therapy when sometimes my problems that I bring in are relatively trivial. I think it's really that I just lack anyone I can talk about these things (I don't talk to my family and don't have any friends to regularly speak to). It's just much easier and more effective with a T. And all the Ts were really effective with me. Although with the 3rd I was frustrated because he really was not saying much in the middle, he changed in the last 2 sessions to be more proactive (which also confused me) and helped me feel like it was OK to feel and respond to things in the way I did.
By boundaries being unsure, I did not really mean he made boundary crossings or boundary violations, I meant I was unsure what to make of the therapy process with HIM, which could've just been because I was so self-conscious around him, but at the time, I thought it was because his approach was different than the other 2 T's in talking about himself and our relationship. I actually asked him what his style was, but he refused to tell me.
The below contains victimization, SI, etc. triggers
I wanted to bring this up...I made another post, but was surprised no one could relate to me. I wanted to bring it up in therapy too, but was afraid that he'd draw similarities between himself and James Spader. I watched Sex, Lies, and Videotape last night in which James Spader plays a character who is very controlled in his demeanor but really is just trying to sort out his problems and does this through love. It's very similar to Secretary and his character in that one. I see my T as these James Spader characters, and I realize that I'm projecting a lot of my attraction to my T, making him espouse these characteristics that the James Spader characters has. My concern here is that my deep appreciation for these movies (that I've found not many people have) and the James Spader character might lead me to believe I could only fall in love with this James Spader type character, and I'm not sure if that's even healthy or possible to look for. I'm not sure if it's healthy for me to like these movies because I'm so attracted--actually obsessed and idolizing and idealizing--to the type of person that James Spader plays in these movies....any thoughts?Thanks all :)
Posted by JoniS on December 2, 2007, at 19:19:39
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
Beautymarked,
You are in such a difficult place. I had therapy in college that had some similariites to what you describe. The best 2 outcomes I can think of (what would have been best for me at the time) are 1- That I could have a few additional "ending" sessions to let my T know more about how I felt; and I could have some time to process my feelings with him before the finality of it. or 2- That I could have been a little stronger, happier with myself that I didn't become so dependent on him.
I spent many months (maybe even a couple of years) trying to stop thinking of him and stop hoping to run into him. That was a very hard time in my life. My feelings were so strong and I turned inward - beating myself up for not being more honest in the sessions. But it was so hard, with such powerful feelings, and working with interns who are just learning themselves how to handle the feelings.
If you don't get another session with him, I would think that a few sessions with someone would be very beneficial - so that you are not hard on yourself.
I hope you are able to work through this with a positive outcome. I don't really know what else to say but good luck with it.
Joni
Posted by estrellita on December 2, 2007, at 22:48:20
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread--trigger, posted by beautymarked on December 2, 2007, at 19:15:47
Hi beautymarked,
If it is not possible to have more sessions with this therapist (and it sounds like it's not), could you see someone else for a few sessions to help you get through this? It sounds kind of silly to me to suggest this (trying to address something that's hurting you by doing more of the same, sort of), but maybe if you see a woman instead of a guy you'd be able to get to the point where this isn't eating you up. I think you said something in your first post about not feeling comfortable with female therapists, but maybe that in itself would be a help. You might care much less what a woman would think of you, and she could be like a sounding board with an insider knowledge of therapeutic techniques. And (assuming you're more or less hetero), the fact that there's no risk of attraction there would probably be less appealing but easier to approach in a way where you're trying to reach a point of peace about the whole situation.
I think someone suggested maybe trying to contact him again. Personally, this sounds like a bad idea to me. I understand what you're feeling, though (not even necessarily about him being a therapist - just that feeling of wanting to be close to someone who seems unreachable). If you do decide to contact him, say what you want to say, keep it as short as you can, tell him what you hope to get out of contacting him, and then leave it at that. Don't contact him again after that. (I did this with a long-time crush - wrote him one email, and never heard back. I gave it a shot, he apparently wasn't interested, and once I realized he wasn't going to respond, I honored my agreement with myself to move on emotionally.)
The other option is to figure out a way that you can, on your own, put this to rest. I know that feels pretty near impossible right now, but find a way to do it. Imagine that you did get to know him, and you found out that he has some really bad qualities, or something? Try to make him more real, and less idealized, in your mind. Because you know what, he IS real. And being real means we hurt people's feelings, we do selfish things, we don't recycle as much as we should, and do all sorts of other horrible things. This might not work at first (even if he does do those things, I still want to be close to him!), but over time it might put a dent into your idealized, mysterious version of him and you'll gain a little distance from the strong feelings you have right now. A starting point for me would be wondering what kind of therapist refuses to tell someone what their style is...maybe I'm wrong, but to me this is a perfectly reasonable question and there's no reason not to answer it truthfully. What the heck was he thinking when he refused to answer that?!?
It's okay to feel the way you do. Just try to realize that the feelings you have right now are preventing you from focusing on other things in life. I'm saying this not in a scolding way, but in a completely empathetic way (as you probably realize from my question last week). The more time we spend laying around, dreaming about "what if," the less time we have for getting out there and actually finding out what if!
It sounds like you're feeling really unhappy with yourself right now because of how you're responding to this situation. Know that eventually, it won't be this way - you'll get tired of putting so much energy into thinking about this person. Maybe try to turn it around in the meantime and ask yourself what it is about the situation that is causing YOU to spend so much time/energy on it. Make it about you, and use it as an opportunity to gain insight into yourself. If you find yourself obsessing even about this, then find a way to escape those circular thoughts for a while - watch a movie, read a book, cook an amazing meal, go shoot some hoops or kick a soccer ball around...whatever. Do something that requires your focus to the point where you have no room to think about anything else but what you're doing right then.
Finally, your situation reminded me of this saying: Suis-moi je te fuis, fuis-moi je te suis. (Follow me and I run away, run away from me and I follow you.) There's something about wanting what you can't have, isn't there? We try to tell ourselves that that's not why we want it so badly, but I think there's a lot to the idea...
I hope something in what I've said will help you!
Posted by antigua3 on December 3, 2007, at 6:47:34
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread--trigger, posted by beautymarked on December 2, 2007, at 19:15:47
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and I hope I don't hurt your feelings.
In my experience, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing--transferring your feelings about men on to him. Ideally in therapy, we work through these things to discover why we are atrracted to the James Spader type (I loved Sex, Lies & Videotape by the way, but haven't seen the other movie).
that said, you may not be strong enough now to work through these feelings for him, or he may not be the right one to do this with.But my goal, at least, with my pdoc, is to work through and understand why I have these feelings and how I can work through them to have healthy relationships with authoritative men and not drag my baggage onto every relationship like this that calls up my triggers and feelings.
but everyone's different. Do what's best for you, but maybe you should explore these feelings with him so they aren't so painful, and you can hopefully get through this.
Hope I haven't offended you.
antigua
Posted by star008 on December 3, 2007, at 8:15:40
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread--trigger, posted by beautymarked on December 2, 2007, at 19:15:47
Beauty,
I understand your embarassment.. It if helps at all, alot of us have been where you are. It is awful and lasts way too long. It will pass, I am sure of it but you ahve to live with it until it starts to fade.. I wouldn't advise that you get more sessions with this T..How could you possibly be honest with him?? I think you would be better off in going back to the other one that you had.
I know you said you are not comfortable with women Ts but like the previous poster I think in this circumstance it might be helpful. With another woman you could explain your feelings alot easier and you find that she would understand where with a man it is harder..
..What happened to you is what happens to alot of us when we are with a T who is reasonably atrractive. We obsess and think about him all the time..
I know you have gotten alot of advice and alot of it is different. Go with what feel right for you.. You know, when something feels right inside, even if you don't really care for the idea??
Posted by beautymarked on December 3, 2007, at 16:09:18
In reply to Yet another T attraction thread (after termination, posted by beautymarked on December 1, 2007, at 11:57:49
I've decided not to go back to this T. I'm going to see the T that knew me best (although it'll be in over a month's time, unfortunately), so that I can be completely honest and work through my thoughts and feelings in a therapeutic fashion. I never knew before coming to this board how important it is to be completely honest--to show ALL those layers. I saw, today, a video in my college about person-centered therapy with Rogers. It shocked me how similar the patient's reactions were to mine. I was so completely disillusioned that someone had the same feelings of the T not helping, seeking external reinforcement, and expressing feelings (though this time fatherlike) to the T. I guess we should all have a little more faith in our Ts that they can handle us. They're trained to.
In the meantime, I'll let my attraction for my T fade. I'll be sure to ask my old T all the right questions, what orientation he is, my feelings about our incomplete termination with both current and past Ts, etc. Thanks for everyone's views. It really helped me in forming a more realistic, cohesive view of the situation, so that I could make a better judgment decision for myself.
Posted by star008 on December 3, 2007, at 21:40:11
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread (after termina, posted by beautymarked on December 3, 2007, at 16:09:18
Posted by Dory on December 4, 2007, at 14:37:35
In reply to Re: Yet another T attraction thread--trigger, posted by beautymarked on December 2, 2007, at 19:15:47
"I went in originally to continue therapy...mostly what I concentrate on is interpersonal interactions and relationships with them being not as close as I want them to be.."
If i say that back to you... does it ring a bell?
the 2nd T could try to unravel the feelings you have with the 3rd, and that would be useful and "safer" i guess.. i mean, no unexpected feelings to pop up. Neat tidy. The 3rd T? messier for sure, faaar more risky for you.. more painful. But i am guessing that he figures pretty big in whatever is affecting your other relationships... i mean, he represents something big. Not a choice i am willing to tell you to make.
as my T has said to me "..it's all about how willing you are to tolerate the pain.."
This is the end of the thread.
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