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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 12:56:00
The person in question is the daughter of a friend who died a couple of years ago. I've known her for more than twenty years. She only calls when she has another crisis, usually to "ask for help" with something she's already decided is not fixable. And frankly, I do not believe her stories anymore.
Now, if that was the only problem, I'd just budget an hour or two a month to listen to her dramas and make sympathetic noises. But it's not all there is going on here.
My eating disorder upset this woman's mother for years. The daughter had a different sort of ED: she was a compulsive binge eater. Eventually, she went overseas to have bariatric surgery -- here in this country, doctors performing such surgery require candidates to stick with a diet for a while before they're accepted for surgery. Had she done that, of course, her insurance would have covered the expense.
Most of her "crisis" calls are about how she needs to be rescued, she's at death's door, etc. Lately, when she calls me, it's all about how she's lost so much weight, she's at death's door, she needs to be hospitalized for it, she's developed an eating disorder, etc. This triggers me a lot, although I'm not sure quite why I find it so upsetting. Then again, this woman has always had a remarkable talent for saying very hurtful things, out of the blue. She's apparently got another set of symptoms for the other friends of her mother's that she calls.
Anyway, after the most recent call, I wrote her an email. I told her I would not discuss her weight, that I will hang up if she brings it up again, and that she just doesn't have Anorexia Nervosa -- she doesn't have the other behavioral patterns that go along with it. I went on to offer some advice: get an accurate diagnosis, get proper medication for that diagnosis, and get into therapy. I went on to say that it seemed as though she only called when she wanted attention, and that that isn't a friendship. And I followed up by recommending she find a DBT therapist, to learn some interpersonal effectiveness techniques. All good advice, I think.
Anyway, here's someone who really doesn't add anything positive to my life. I feel a lot of guilt, a lot of responsibility, and a certain amount of empathy for her, largely because of her mother. But she brings nothing positive to my life: all her calls do is annoy me anymore.
And I'm terrified that she'll reject me because of my email??? Why? What is my problem? This is pathological, and my T and I can't quite figure it out. My T -- who apparently hasn't recognized my fundamental f--ed-up-ness yet -- thinks it's empathy. She thinks it's because I don't want to make other people feel bad, because I have felt bad. I think there may be some of that -- but there's something much more going on. I'm just plain afraid of being rejected. Even though this is someone I don't particularly like, whom I do not respect, whose company I do not enjoy. What the hell?
Anyone here have any ideas?
Posted by MidnightBlue on September 28, 2007, at 14:36:44
In reply to Why am I afraid of rejection by a troll?, posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 12:56:00
Maybe you wish you had a daughter?
MB
Posted by Dory on September 28, 2007, at 15:28:25
In reply to Why am I afraid of rejection by a troll?, posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 12:56:00
maybe it would be helpful to go at it from a different tack (tact?)... this is going to be hard to say in writing and not in person.. i am afraid it will come out sounding like something i don't mean (a gift i have).
first, instead of what is wrong with you, what is right about what you did? You were honest and gave her good advice based on your honest feelings. i see nothing wrong with that at all, but the price you have to pay is potential rejection, anger, revenge, etc etc etc... trust me on this one, i suffer this one all the time because blunt honesty isn't usually welcomed, helpful or no.
some guilt comes i think because maybe you were blunt honest out of anger or frustration than out of kindness? Not saying you were unkind in your actions.. but what were your feelings when you decided to do this? i think blunt honesty is often a good thing, and i think she needed to hear it from somewhere... but it tastes like crap on the receiving end. We all know this.. "yes, your *ss looks fat in those pants."
i wouldn't feel guilty (do as i say not as i do) about what you said, but i would examine your feelings around the time you said it, not just your feelings now. Just a thought on a possible direction. Speaking from anger will leave a resonance with us until we figure it out.
i agree with your therapist to a degree, empathy, for someone else's pain, even if she is doing it to herself. Even if she is making sh*t up.. then she is doing that for some other pain. Empathy maybe as well for that bitter pill i mentioned.
She is the daughter of a friend who died... you might not actually *be* responsible for her in any way, but your bond with your friend probably keeps you feeling that way... it becomes more about your friend than about her daughter. Guilt is a wonderous thing.. guilt helped keep you listening to this woman i would imagine.
And yes, i completely agree with you too. Guilt and fear of rejection. The part of our brain which feels the most primal and basic emotion does not understand the nuances of personal interaction... rejection is rejection. It takes a lot to override that. Sh*t.. i felt rejected by the grumpy old geezer who barked at me for accidentally taking his spot in the hot dog cart line yesterday!! You want f*ck-upedness?
If you examine just why you kept being "helpful" or, maybe putting off being helpful depending on your point of view, and your feelings when you decided to change your actions... i think you'll figure a lot of things out.
again.. i hope this didn't come out all back assward...
Posted by pianissimo on September 28, 2007, at 20:46:19
In reply to Why am I afraid of rejection by a troll?, posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 12:56:00
Well, when rejection is an issue (like it is for me too) it doesn't matter who the person is, it still hurts as if they meant something to me. And then when the rejection (or perceieved rejection, whichever) is actually from someone I love, or hold in high esteem it hurts a million times more. I think it's almost that my scale of another's personal importance to me, is severely skewed.
So in the end a rejection is a rejection regardless of what you think of the person who is seems to be coming from. Kinda maddening huh? Is that anything like what it's like for you?Also, I agree with something Dory touched on. This is the daughter of a friend of yours that you lost. The daughter might seem the last tangible reminder of her for you. Maybe if the daughter rejects you it'll feel like a piece of your friend is too, or at least that you'll losing a bit of her memory? Or not.
That aside, I think you did a good job of standing up for yourself, voicing your opinion while still offering advice. I never think it's a bad thing to do what you need to say or do to protect yourself. I suppose we'd all like to be strong enough to help everyone, but not at our own expense. Especially because no one can be that superwoman, or should have to be. I would've hoped for this woman to have had the tact and insight to have known that this subject is difficult for you (to say the least).
Long windedness aside, I think you said the right thing, and try not to fret too much about how the rest of the interaction plays out. Or at least keeping talking about it if it does.Pianissimo
Posted by RealMe on September 28, 2007, at 21:36:56
In reply to Re: Why am I afraid of rejection by a troll? » Racer, posted by Dory on September 28, 2007, at 15:28:25
Dory wrote**She is the daughter of a friend who died... you might not actually *be* responsible for her in any way, but your bond with your friend probably keeps you feeling that way... it becomes more about your friend than about her daughter. Guilt is a wonderous thing.. guilt helped keep you listening to this woman i would imagine.**
This from Dory relates to my thoughts too, Racer. She is the daughter of a friend, and not just a friend; a friend who died. Perhaps you feel a sense of betrayal to your friend by telling her daughter to basically get a life and stop being such a complainer. It sounds like she knows how to complain but never takes anyone's advice and doesn't really do anything to help herself; just complains. Nothing works and no one can really help. She sounds like one angry young lady.
Posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 22:12:11
In reply to Re: Why am I afraid of rejection by a troll? » Dory, posted by RealMe on September 28, 2007, at 21:36:56
Thank you all for your responses. They all gave me something to think about.
I, too, agree with Dory that there's a lot of this that has to do with loyalty and my love for my late friend.
Today, I got an email from another mutual friend -- of the mother's, that is -- saying she'd has several telephone calls from the daughter, who left messages saying that I'd "kissed her off" entirely, and no doubt going on to talk about how unfair and cruel I was to do so. (I imagine that's the case, although I haven't heard back yet.) This friend also bcc'd me an email she sent in response, which said, "Um, no, Racer told you she wouldn't talk to you about this one subject. That's not a kiss off, you can call about other things. By the way, it's not fair to turn to someone for help all the time with things that really require professional attention." She also pointed out that only plumbers accept only being called in emergencies.
That reaction brought home to me something my T had said about her: the constant crises, the substance abuse, the binge eating, the dichotomous thinking, the over-reactions -- they really do add up to borderline. I've had that feeling for a long time, although I wasn't sure all of it fit. This, though, really does bring the picture into clearer focus for me.
Especially since you'll notice she's calling her mother's friends. Anyone else here wonder why it is that she only has her mother's friends to call?
Oh, and my husband says he thinks it's about my whole need for approval thing. He was kind enough to say that "there are people like us who want approval." He's so sweet -- yes, he wants approval, but he's not nearly so weird about it as I am.
Thanks again for the responses so far. Any other comments cheerfully -- and gratefully -- accepted.
Posted by Racer on September 29, 2007, at 22:04:17
In reply to Well, I heard the next chapter today, posted by Racer on September 28, 2007, at 22:12:11
So, now I've heard a bit more about the messages this woman left for her mother's other friend -- gotta find better ways to refer to them, huh?
Her message talked about how much she'd done for me, and how it seemed appropriate to call me, since we "share the same problem." Uh... No. In fact, the only thing I can recall relating to my own eating disorder that she's done "for me," was to tell me that we couldn't talk about it, because it was so foreign to her! (That was shortly after her mother died, when I mentioned that I was sorry that she didn't know before she died that I was finally getting treatment.)
You know, it's too bad I wasn't taking notes all those years...
But, the good news is, I'm feeling a lot less guilty now. Funny how that works.
Posted by muffled on September 29, 2007, at 22:09:04
In reply to And it gets even better..., posted by Racer on September 29, 2007, at 22:04:17
Posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 22:29:08
In reply to And it gets even better..., posted by Racer on September 29, 2007, at 22:04:17
I am glad you are feeling a lot less guilty. It is really difficult to have someone play on you that way. Have a good evening; no guilt!!!!!
RealMe
Posted by Poet on September 30, 2007, at 15:55:30
In reply to And it gets even better..., posted by Racer on September 29, 2007, at 22:04:17
Hi Racer,
I think you should call a Troll a Troll and it is wonderful to hear that you are feeling less guilty.
I suspect that Troll is one of those people who inflates everything into a crisis. Maybe you should call her Drama Troll. Reminds me of a co-worker of mine I used to cut what she said in half, now I cut it into eigths and I am bad at fractions so I fear cutting her talk into sixteenths. I don't take the lies she tells with a grain of salt, I take it with a salt rimmed margarita.
Poet
Posted by RealMe on September 30, 2007, at 17:15:43
In reply to Re: And it gets even better..., posted by Poet on September 30, 2007, at 15:55:30
It's nice to smile, and you have a great way of putting thinks, Poet. I could use a drink right now, but I have two more reports to get done yet tonight. Yes, I have met those people too.
RealMe
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 18:29:21
In reply to Re: And it gets even better... » Poet, posted by RealMe on September 30, 2007, at 17:15:43
Racer, I think everyone here gave you great insight. I am new here and as I read the thread I think you are a truly caring person and Drama Troll is just using that to create drama in her life. You cared for your friend but you don't have to condone the troll. You did ok in listening to her the first time to satisfy your need to care and you can move on guilt free. You did what a good friend would do for a late friend and I applaud you for that because you knew going into it what to expect and yet you did it anyway. Dont feel guilty, you did the right thing and now must take care of you.
This is the end of the thread.
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